CSM-need opinions on my AL

[MansLastStand]

so i set up a 2k list and tried to make it tactile... list is as follows

Daemon prince - tzeenecht - bolt of change gift of chaos

Beserkers - 10-skull champ - power weapon plasma pistol - two more plasma pistols- personal icon

CSM - two squads of ten - aspiring - twin linked bolter - power weapon - melta - lascannon

Possessed - 5- khorne

Chosen - 5- nurgle - missile - 2melta - 2plasma

Terminators - 5 - nurgle- 5power fists - reapercannon

Defiler - havoc- lascannon

Landraider - havoc (beserkers transport)

Rhino - havoc (possessed transport)

the idea is to run in with the landraider and drop the beserkers while the LR is laying down fire and enter close combat- plasma pistols r for when i survive if i have to move to the next group...

the two CSM squads r supposed to lay down suppressive fire while holding or going for objectives with the lascannon or regular troop choices but carry the melta for tank busting when i find im in a bad position...

the possessed are suppose to follow the LR in the rhino and disembark after the beserkers have already forced the enemy into combat to come in and mop up stronger opponents and give general support...

the chosen are purely special forces and will only be used for stronger enemies such as tanks and terminators/nobs/necrons/ whatever...

the terminators are to deepstrike onto the beserkers position with help from their personal icon and aid in moping up as well but i do not expect them to die seeing how by then all the nearby forces will be focused on the beserkers and possesed once the beserkers move to another target along with the possessed the terminators can give support as well as deepstrike onto an objectice that the beserkers were fighting for and keep it contested while the rest r mopped up and CSMS can arrive...

the land raider will drop and scoot to lay down fire with the lascannons for the close cpmbat infantry...

the defiler will stay back and pick off **** with its battlecannon and lascannon and killing ne troops with east from the BC or the havoc...

the rhino should drop and scoot and lay down more anti infantry fire with its havoc and twin linked bolter...

and finally the daemon prince is supposed to stay back and take out key targets with bolt of change and gift of chaos while looking epically beast...

(this is to say everything goes as planned)

ne suggestions?

[the jeske]

not even one model[that is including the rhino] is proper build or armed. Few times in my life I have seen an army that has everything done wrong .
As for sugestions . do not buy hvy weapons for csm units , they cant combat squad which means your buying a 250+points lascanon. that kind of a sucks .
the fact that you have MoT doesnt mean you have to buy a second psychic power. Also it is impossible without a big help from your opponent to use gift of chaos[check when it is cast].
A rhino is still AV11 , possession is a waste for it . If you want something close to a razorback build [am drawing this out of you using a havock back] then buy 3-4 rhinos , not 1.
as zerkers go. 8 man is enough , if something needs 10 to be killed it probably will kill 10 zerkers too[shoting or hth] it is better to invest in more units , then in a single big one. DO NOT BUY PLASMA PISTOLS . specialy not on your Asp champions[also fists are a better options for asp champs , even for zerkers coming out of LR] .

chosen and possessed. possessed are a non scoring random unit that costs as much scoring zerkers .they also arent more killy then zerkers unless you roll power weapons[and you have the same chance for that as rolling 1 and them doing nothing] . even if you realy loved the possessed , then 5 man is not enough size for a hth unit . 8 is minimum for models that die like normal meq +they need a transport.

chosen. static small . one long range weapon that should be 20-30" away from enemy , plasma that works best at 12" and in case of chosen a rhino drive by and melta that work at 6". if your enemy sees this unit they die. they cant use melta rule on turn 1 [which more or less means they suck without rhino] . want to use them , get 2x5 with 3-5 plasma or melta.

YOU DO NOT PUT HVY WEAPONS ON A DEFILER. you cant use it when you shot the canon , the single las has low chance of doing something.you would need 3 defiler with 3 las to have a good chance of doing something only for the same number of points you could buy 6 oblits and have double the lascanons . a defiler is a huge model that has problems with getting cover and is always seen ... with a AV of 12. safest place for it is in CCW . Ah and before you start thinking ", but if I get imobilised with a blown up battle canon my defiler wont do anything " , know that the chance of that happening is way smaller to the same fire power to achive those resoults blowing up your defiler.

Single LR tend to die fast , ours have no PotMs , they already have 3 weapons . havock launchers is not needed.


Also why is this called an AL list ????

[MansLastStand]

alright i c what your saying well how do u suggest to run a mainly close combat army

[the jeske]

LR rush or mecha or chaos zilla ?
Lr rush is 2-3 LR[decided by points played] 2-3 units in those LR [zerkers or melta csm] and 2 DPS or 2 lords or lord+kharn.

mecha would be maximum number of zerkers in rhinos or a mix 50/59 with pms or csm[pms staying power , csm more attacks and shots]. DPs as Hqs .

zylla is 2 DPs 3 defilers rest in csm or zerkers.

[MansLastStand]

what does DPS stand for - relatively new to the game*

[the jeske]

demon princes

[erwos]

You should be able to squeeze 2 lash DPs, two units of 8 mech'd berzerkers, two units of 7 mech'd PMs, and 9 obliterators into 2000 points with appropriate upgrades.

[Ulf]

From my experience I would recommend the following changes, without changing too much of your setup:

Daemon Prince:
Get him a pair of wings and Warptime, thats just too good to pass up. Drop the other psychic powers and maybe the mark of tzeentch, too, if you need more points for other stuff. If you kit him out with Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and the good old Doombolt, you'll have a nice amount of killing power (remember, Warptime re-rolls also work for the Doombolt, thats 3x rerollable 2+ to hit and rerollable 4+ to Wound to kill a Marine - very nice to soften up combat squads so the power fist sarge has very little chances to live long enough to strike back...).

Possessed:
Five in a Rhino, actually not bad, but the mark is very expensive for small unit - I tend to use them only for units larger than 10. Drop the mark or resize the squad to 10.

Terminators:
Those are pretty tough and can dish out a lot of damage, but I would recommend taking some terminators without any equipment to remove them as early casualties, then upgrade some of the Power Fist dudes to champions. As with the possessed, the mark works better if you have a larger squad.

Chosen:
Chosen are very useful, mainly because they can take loads of special weapons and enter the game via outflank, so their weapons can take a free shot most of the times.
Your setup (Missile Launcher, 2x Plasma 2x Melta) seems to be not limited to a single task, which basically is a good thing. But you probably won't be able to use the missile launcher most of the time, because the other weapons short range will force the chosen to keep moving. You should drop the launcher, replace it with maybe a flamer, or another melta or plasma gun. Again, the Mark is very steep for a limited effect.You could add almost 3 more chosen instead of the mark, which will make the unit more likely to survive in most cases.

Berzerkers:
Those are a pain in close combat for every enemy. A Squad of 10 will deal with just about anything on the charge. Try adding a power fist instead of the energy weapon, you will need it against certain units which would otherwise block your zerkers easily (dreadnoughts, wraithlords...). Also, the fist will increase your ability to kill vehicles greatly. I dislike plasma pistols,they always seem to overheat and kill champions..

Chaos Space Marines:
Very versatile unit. The lascannon is a nice touch - it allows them to camp on an objective and still reach out across the board, but if you intend to move them forward you probably should take another assault weapon like flame throwers. Again, I would prefer a power fist over a power weapon for the champion.

Defiler:
Don't take too many additional ranged weapons. One is ok so the defiler is not useless after the first weapon destroyed, but you won't be using them too much as the battle cannon does not allow you to fire other weapons in the same shooting phase. I recommend the battlecannon+close combat weapon+assault cannon setup.

Rhino:
Always good to have some of these, the havoc is actually pretty good against hordes of enemies like orks and imperial guardsmen.

Land Raider:
Possession is a very nice upgrade, take it and you will probably like it a lot. Don't take any additional weapons except maybe a combi-melta (which counts as a defensive weapon, even if you use the melta).

[DarkLink]

I'll just point out that tactile means;
1. Of or connected with the sense of touch.
2. Perceptible by touch or apparently so; tangible: "an almost tactile memory".:p


I'll back up Ulf on his points. Always take EA/Possession on Land Raiders. Powerfists are better for Berzerkers than Powerweapons. Berzerkers are already really, really good at killing infantry, so the PW isn't that much of a benifit. The Powerfist, however, lets you hurt things you otherwise couldn't, which can really save you sometimes.

[Tynskel]

I don't think this list is 'done wrong'. That's like announcing to the world your own personal incompetence. There are lists that are efficient, and there are lists less inefficient- never 'done wrong'.

The list has some good ideas, and can be tweaked to capitalize on your playing style.

I like the daemon prince--- personally, I am a fan of wings-- nothing like fast moving Monsterous Creatures!

Beserkers: because you are taking Plasma Pistols, I'd recommend a powerfist. This will allow you to consistently kill anything big if you have to charge.

Terminators: When you break it down, the common weapon that kills terminators are Plasma and Melta-- both of which, a toughness upgrade does nothing. Mark of Tzeentch can seriously improve your terminators. If you are planning to exclusively use your terminators as infantry killing, then I'd go with Nurgle- most infantry have trouble killing Terminators as it is, and the toughness would make it close to impossible. I'd also switch the powerfists to power weapons. But, you have them equipped with Powerfists-- which means you want them to face tough opponents--- that's where Tzeentch would be better (or Khorne).

Your Chosen don't really need a Missile Launcher. I'd either go with all heavy weapons, or go with special weapons. I wouldn't go with both.

Put the possession on the Land Raider instead of the rhino.

The rhino is a dedicated transport-- who's transport is it?

[Lykum]

This is mostly general CSM advice based on what you are taking. If you have a better idea of how you like to play I'll give you ideas in that direction.

All in all, I find the MoN to be generally useless and WAY too expensive. I would prefer the MoK on a 10 man squad. You'll lose furious charge and fearless, but you'll basically have a berzerker unit with better weapon choices.

Personally, I like the plasmas in the berzerker squad. I feel like it rounds out the ability of the squad with a S7 weapon with very little risk. If you wanna rock 10 of em I say go for it. Your increment of killyness on the charge against a vanilla 10 man SM squad goes from 47% to 59% with the addition of 2 guys. At I5, that just means 1-2 fewer guys get to swing back.

For the vehicles... DP on the LR is key. I like the Reaper on the Defiler. The lascannon on that dude is a waste. Rhinos are the VW busses of 40k. Keep em basic. I wouldn't put leather seats and Bose surround in a VW bus, so don't waste expensive upgrades on the Rhino. Extra armor and/or a combi weapon is about it.

Remember what I said about the MoN? Forget it when you do your demon prince. Since he is immune to instant death, the extra toughness actually helps. WS <4 opponents will need 5+ just to hit. And the T6 will make it so only guys with S8 can wound on a 2. Warptime, yes. Not bad for 175 pts.

I still haven't found an effective way to use my chosen. I like everything about them though.

Consider a 3 man squad of Terminators with a combi-melta x2 and a combi-flamer. Maybe a chainfist. Deepstrike them in to scare the crap out of vehicles and divert fire from your main force. Again, for 120 pts your can't go wrong.

[Lykum]

Don't take any additional weapons except maybe a combi-melta (which counts as a defensive weapon, even if you use the melta).

Are you saying the S8 melta part of the combi-melta counts as a defensive weapon? Do you have a reference to support this? It sounds like something I'd like to do.

[Tynskel]

it is only a defensive weapon if you are firing it defensively--- ie str4. Anything that is str5+ is a 'main weapon'.

[Ulf]

it is only a defensive weapon if you are firing it defensively--- ie str4. Anything that is str5+ is a 'main weapon'.

The Codex: CSM says otherwise. Page 87, Pintle-mounted combi-weapon:

Pintle-mounted weapons are treated as an additional weapon, with the profile of a normal combi-weapon, which can always be fired in addition to other weapons if the vehicle did not move more than 6"

[Lykum]

The Codex: CSM says otherwise. Page 87, Pintle-mounted combi-weapon:

Pintle-mounted weapons are treated as an additional weapon, with the profile of a normal combi-weapon, which can always be fired in addition to other weapons if the vehicle did not move more than 6"

Nice! I like it. I totally missed that.

Though, to be honest, if your Rhino moves 6" it would still fire it's one weapon (the combi-melta) plus all defensive weapons (the one twin-linked bolter). No benefit to the Rhino.

On a LR, it is rare that I move less than 12", but throwing out a melta and a lascannon at the same time after moving 6" could have some serious benefits. "In your FACE PotMS!"