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Aenir
08-23-2009, 06:34 PM
1500

HQ:
Belial with Sword/SBolter: 130
Command Squad (Normal Armor)155
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
1 Power Weapon
1 Melta Bomb

Elite:
Dreadnought:140
Extra Armor

Troops:
Terminator Squad: 275
Standard Bearer (Deathwing Standard)
1 Chain Fist
1 Cyclone Missle Launcher
1 TH/SS


Terminator Squad: 235
1 Assault Cannon

Tactical Squad: 190
Plasma Gun
ML

Ravenwing Attack Sqd: 190
Power Weap x1
Attack Bike w/MM

Predator
TL Las Turret
Las Sponsons
Extra Armor
PMSB

Katie Drake
08-23-2009, 08:34 PM
1500

HQ:
Belial with Sword/SBolter: 130
Command Squad (Normal Armor)155
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
1 Power Weapon
1 Melta Bomb

This is okay I guess. You're probably spending points needlessly in the Standard Bearer since most of the units in your army are Fearless due to being either Deathwing or Ravenwing. If you want to make this unit as effective as possible, trade out the power sword for a power fist, drop the melta bomb and pick up a Rhino. These guys won't last terribly long even with an Apothecary if they're going to footslog it. Additionally, picking up a flamer or something would make them a credible shooting threat as well.


Elite:
Dreadnought:140
Extra Armor

Very nice, though you may want to consider making him Venerable if you can find the points to do so. If not, it's no huge loss.


Troops:
Terminator Squad: 275
Standard Bearer (Deathwing Standard)
1 Chain Fist
1 Cyclone Missle Launcher
1 TH/SS

Belial's Deathwing Terminator Command Squad is deadly, but at the moment I'm afraid they'll be less effective than they could be. The Standard can be deadly, but since the majority of the unit is equipped to shoot, you'd likely benefit from an Apothecary more. Good choice on the Cyclone, though you may wish to exchange the model armed with a thunder hammer and storm shield for one armed with twin lightning claws, since the entire unit is able to attack with power fists anyway.



Terminator Squad: 235
1 Assault Cannon

Can't argue with this. Reasonably cheap and pretty darn effective. On a side note, whenever taking Deathwing Terminators, try not to ignore the heavy flamer option. They're so cheap there's no reason not to take one unless you seriously need another weapon upgrade, like in this unit's case.


Tactical Squad: 190
Plasma Gun
ML

Not a bad pick, but without any sort of transport I'm worried that these guys won't be too effective. A unit of 10 Tactical Marines struggles to be overly effective against infantry without a way to get into rapid fire range easily. It may seem to be a "waste" of your missile launcher, but you're always able to either drop it and save points, or use Combat Squads to have it hang back and shoot.


Ravenwing Attack Sqd: 190
Power Weap x1
Attack Bike w/MM

Not a bad pick at all. Four tough models and the ability to take out vehicles. All I can really suggest is if you have the model change the power weapon into a power fist so you can deal with vehicles in close combat, too. If not, no big deal. These guys should be largely fine as they are.


Predator
TL Las Turret
Las Sponsons
Extra Armor
PMSB

A dedicated tank hunter to be certain, this guy's probably going to cost you in the long run. He has some powerful guns in the form of three lascannons, but unfortunately these aren't as effective at damaging vehicles as their profile would suggest. If the Predator was to be removed completely from the list, it's my opinion that you'd be in a much better position as you could afford multiple other upgrades in its place. Also, try not to take storm bolters on tanks that are geared toward tank hunting. I know they're cheap, but so are flamers and melta bombs on Veteran Sergeants. :)

All in all, you have a good core list that could be strengthened by some tweaking. Good work. :)

Aenir
08-23-2009, 09:17 PM
responses in red :)

This is okay I guess. You're probably spending points needlessly in the Standard Bearer since most of the units in your army are Fearless due to being either Deathwing or Ravenwing. If you want to make this unit as effective as possible, trade out the power sword for a power fist, drop the melta bomb and pick up a Rhino. These guys won't last terribly long even with an Apothecary if they're going to footslog it. Additionally, picking up a flamer or something would make them a credible shooting threat as well.
That can be done, I will try that out


Very nice, though you may want to consider making him Venerable if you can find the points to do so. If not, it's no huge loss.
I do not have a venerable Dread kit, its just a BR Dreaddy


Belial's Deathwing Terminator Command Squad is deadly, but at the moment I'm afraid they'll be less effective than they could be. The Standard can be deadly, but since the majority of the unit is equipped to shoot, you'd likely benefit from an Apothecary more. Good choice on the Cyclone, though you may wish to exchange the model armed with a thunder hammer and storm shield for one armed with twin lightning claws, since the entire unit is able to attack with power fists anyway.
Dont have TLC, just a TH/SS that i traded a chainfist for as it breaks down, the Chainfist model has the Cyclone



Can't argue with this. Reasonably cheap and pretty darn effective. On a side note, whenever taking Deathwing Terminators, try not to ignore the heavy flamer option. They're so cheap there's no reason not to take one unless you seriously need another weapon upgrade, like in this unit's case.
once again traded it away, but if i get another squad i might try that


Not a bad pick, but without any sort of transport I'm worried that these guys won't be too effective. A unit of 10 Tactical Marines struggles to be overly effective against infantry without a way to get into rapid fire range easily. It may seem to be a "waste" of your missile launcher, but you're always able to either drop it and save points, or use Combat Squads to have it hang back and shoot.
I usually use these guys to sit on an objective so my terminators can go do something else, i also have a MM marine if needed


Not a bad pick at all. Four tough models and the ability to take out vehicles. All I can really suggest is if you have the model change the power weapon into a power fist so you can deal with vehicles in close combat, too. If not, no big deal. These guys should be largely fine as they are.
I could find it :) it seems that they die really often


A dedicated tank hunter to be certain, this guy's probably going to cost you in the long run. He has some powerful guns in the form of three lascannons, but unfortunately these aren't as effective at damaging vehicles as their profile would suggest. If the Predator was to be removed completely from the list, it's my opinion that you'd be in a much better position as you could afford multiple other upgrades in its place. Also, try not to take storm bolters on tanks that are geared toward tank hunting. I know they're cheap, but so are flamers and melta bombs on Veteran Sergeants. :)
I pick him because without him, i severely lack for AT capability, i can remove the SB no problem.
the people at my store nearly completely agree that melta bombs arent worth the points, would you agree?
All in all, you have a good core list that could be strengthened by some tweaking. Good work. :)

Old_Paladin
08-23-2009, 09:35 PM
The Venny Dread is an easy converson, just trophy him up from your bitz box.

For the pred, if possible maybe change out the turret for the auto-cannon; it saves a lot of points, with only a small loss of AT; and is now a little better vs. medium-heavy infantry and light vehicles. The saved points can be used to pack in extra melta (which is much better AT).


Melta bombs are the poormans powerfist vs. vehciles. If you have the points, the fist is often better in many cases.

Aenir
08-23-2009, 09:53 PM
The Venny Dread is an easy converson, just trophy him up from your bitz box.

For the pred, if possible maybe change out the turret for the auto-cannon; it saves a lot of points, with only a small loss of AT; and is now a little better vs. medium-heavy infantry and light vehicles. The saved points can be used to pack in extra melta (which is much better AT).


Melta bombs are the poormans powerfist vs. vehciles. If you have the points, the fist is often better in many cases.

Ill see what i have for the venny, but i traded the auto-cannon away along with 10 dollars for a land-speeder that i made into Sammael on a land-speeder :D

Old_Paladin
08-23-2009, 10:00 PM
Hmm...
You might be able to cut off a single lascannon from the turret, snip the tip of the remaining gun and model on a simple muzzle break...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/AMX-10RC_017-frein-de-gueule.jpg

Aenir
08-23-2009, 10:05 PM
Hmm...
You might be able to cut off a single lascannon from the turret, snip the tip of the remaining gun and model on a simple muzzle break...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/AMX-10RC_017-frein-de-gueule.jpg

thats interesting :D

I dont know if i will cannibilize my turret thought, as then im TL lascannon short :D:cool:

Chumbalaya
08-23-2009, 10:07 PM
Belial with Sword/SBolter: 130

Always handy.


Command Squad (Normal Armor)155
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
1 Power Weapon
1 Melta Bomb

Standard is useless on Fearless dudes. I would pack a Rhino, 2 meltas, and the Apothecary. Their job is to provide extra melta (something Deathwing critically lack) and an Apothecary for the Terminators. Walk them typically, using the Rhino as a mobile wall.


Dreadnought:140
Extra Armor

Add a heavy flamer. Pick up another if possible, 1 Dread is just asking for death.


Terminator Squad: 275
Standard Bearer (Deathwing Standard)
1 Chain Fist
1 Cyclone Missle Launcher
1 TH/SS

Slogging squads don't need the Standard, you'll find the Apothecary much more effective. Stick to LCs over the TH/SS so you can get some swings at I4. Assault Cannon is a more flexible option than the CML, I'd pick it every time unless you went mass ML.


Terminator Squad: 235
1 Assault Cannon

245 actually. Great unit.


Tactical Squad: 190
Plasma Gun
ML

What are these guys doing? 1 Missile Launcher isn't doing anything, 1 plasma gun on foot is slightly more useful but still meh. Either go for a multi-melta, flamer, and Rhino or drop for another Terminator squad.


Ravenwing Attack Sqd: 190
Power Weap x1
Attack Bike w/MM

Swap PW for meltas and we've got something to work with. Small and an obvious target though, so field another.


Predator
TL Las Turret
Las Sponsons
Extra Armor
PMSB

Too expensive and lascannons are not great tank busters.

It's a little bit of everything, so you'll always be outclassed. Pick a focus and stick with it. You've got scoring Terminators, so capitalize on that. Scoring Termies en masse with 2 Apothecaries are a huge pain to kill. All you need after that is some anti-tank, particularly melta. RW Bikes or Speeders, Dreads, and the command squad. For flexibility, a cheap dakka Predator or two will give you a lot of high S shots down range to knock out light AV and tag wounds on MCs. Some AV14 wouldn't hurt either, so you may want Sammael stuck in too.

GreenMarines
08-24-2009, 08:07 AM
1500

Tactical Squad: 190
Plasma Gun
ML

Ravenwing Attack Sqd: 190
Power Weap x1
Attack Bike w/MM

Predator
TL Las Turret
Las Sponsons
Extra Armor
PMSB

Drop the tact squad and take a third Terminator squad. So you will have three Termiantor squads and will have the chance to bring 2 in the first round.
You can get the ponits by changing the Predator. For me twinlinked Las were fine in the last games.

You will also have the problem, that your enemy has only 2 units for his anti-tank fire. So the Pred will not be able to fire most of the time - maybe drop it ant take a Dev Squad or bikes with meltas (another Ravenwing would also be nice for the Deathwing to drop by).

For Ravenwing take melta an Powerfist.

Aenir
08-24-2009, 10:24 AM
Drop the tact squad and take a third Terminator squad. So you will have three Termiantor squads and will have the chance to bring 2 in the first round.
You can get the ponits by changing the Predator. For me twinlinked Las were fine in the last games.

You will also have the problem, that your enemy has only 2 units for his anti-tank fire. So the Pred will not be able to fire most of the time - maybe drop it ant take a Dev Squad or bikes with meltas (another Ravenwing would also be nice for the Deathwing to drop by).

For Ravenwing take melta an Powerfist.

Is the expense of the terminator worth it versus a cheaper squad who can sit on objectives and free up my terminators to do whatever they need to do?

Warmaster Horous
08-25-2009, 06:39 AM
1500

HQ:
Belial with Sword/SBolter: 130
Command Squad (Normal Armor)155
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
1 Power Weapon
1 Melta Bomb

Elite:
Dreadnought:140
Extra Armor

Troops:
Terminator Squad: 275
Standard Bearer (Deathwing Standard)
1 Chain Fist
1 Cyclone Missle Launcher
1 TH/SS


Terminator Squad: 235
1 Assault Cannon

Tactical Squad: 190
Plasma Gun
ML

Ravenwing Attack Sqd: 190
Power Weap x1
Attack Bike w/MM

Predator
TL Las Turret
Las Sponsons
Extra Armor
PMSB

Ok but drop the tacticle squad nd add a chaplain in terminator armour.
P.S. Change 1 of the termie squads to all lightning claws nd keep it wit the chaplain- Re-rolls to hit nd wound!!!

GreenMarines
08-25-2009, 01:34 PM
Is the expense of the terminator worth it versus a cheaper squad who can sit on objectives and free up my terminators to do whatever they need to do?

I would say definitely yes. The whole Army, the concept of combines Ravenwing and Deathwing, is more fun and style then a tourney list. So I would make the list 100% this way. And what you are trying with a combined Ravenwing and Deathwing List is to kill the enemy. Sitting on objectives is not what you want to do.

GreenMarines
08-25-2009, 02:13 PM
Here is a quick one concentrating on Ravenwing and Deathwing:

HQ

Belial: 130

Fast Attack:

Ravenwing Attack Sqd: 190
2x Melta, Attack Bike w/MM

Ravenwing Attack Sqd: 190
2x Melta, Attack Bike w/MM

Troops:

Terminator Squad: 245
Standard Bearer with Heavy Flamer
2 TH/SS
2 Lightning Claws

Terminator Squad: 250
1 Assault Cannon
1 Chainfist

Terminator Squad: 250
1 Assault Cannon
1 Chainfist

Terminator Squad: 245
1 Assault Cannon

The idea is to deploy your bikes and attack bike and use scout to get near the opponent. You are allowed to turbo-boost while useing scout, so go 24" and get your 3+ Inv. In your first turn 2 Terminator squad will arrive and you have 4 Teleporthomer on the table. The bikes/ attack bikes will be in Melta range and your Term Squads will bring death.:D

Feel free to change the wargear in the Terminator Sqds, one big advantage for DA is, that they can combine CC and Shoting in one Terminator Sqd.

Just remember two things Stom Shileds are only 4+ Inv and the Apothecary will allowed you to ignore one missed save but only when he is not in close combat and when the attack is not instant death or ignores armorsaves in close combat. Imo it is not worth 30points.

mkerr
08-26-2009, 03:21 PM
@Aenir: Playing Dark Angels at 1500pts is a bit of a challenge, but I like your army list. I think you'll have fun with it.

Here are a few comments on tightening it up a bit:

1. If you haven't built Belial, I recommend going with the Twin Lightning Claws over the Power Weapon and Storm Bolter. He's a lot more effective in close combat with the TLCs (especially against high toughness targets).

2. I'm not sure I understand the role of your Command Squad. Without a transport, these guys aren't going to be doing much in the average game. I'd find the points for a Razorback or a Rhino (or drop them to beef up your Upgraded Deathwing Terminator squad).

3. I really like the suggestion of putting a heavy flamer on this Dreadnought.

4. If this squad is designed to work with Belial, then I'd lose the Cyclone Missile Launcher and add in a couple of TLC Terminators and an Apothecary (they are awesome in Deathwing units).

5. I'm not sure that you need the second Deathwing squad. It's a toss-up. I love Terminators, but you really don't have as much punch as I'd like in a Dark Angels army.

6. Unmounted, that Tactical squad isn't going to help you much (it's just a really expensive Missile Launcher). I'd go with a better heavy weapon and use this unit to grab objectives -- it would be better if you could find the points for a Rhino.

7. I'd lose the Power Weapon in the Ravenwing Attack Squad and add a Meltagun or two.

8. I hope you modelled that Predator with a huge target on it because it's not going to last long in this army. I'd go with a cheaper Pred with no Lascannons so that it doesn't draw as much fire. I also don't recommend putting a Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter on a Predator.

Best of luck and let us know how it plays!

-- mkerr

Aenir
08-27-2009, 05:05 PM
I looked through everything I have, it is as follows :D

Azrael
Ezekiel
Belial
Sammael (On Land Speeder)
BR Captain
Chaplain with Jump Pack
Int. Chaplain (Asmodai Model)
I have 5 marines drifting around, usually use them as CMD Sqd, 1 apoth, standard bearer, 3 regular boltgun marines
1 Term Squad with Cyc, Assault cannon, and chainfist
1 BR Term Squad (i usually take one of the weapons and switch them)
1 BR Dreadnought
1 5x Scout squad (4 Sniper Rifles, 1 ML)
1 Tac Squad (BR, ML and Flamer)
1 Tac Squad (Pg, ML)
1 Tac Squad (PF on sgt, Meltagun, Multimelta)
2x 5 man assault squads, 2 sgts with powerfists
1x Ravenwing Attack Squad (PW and attack Bike with MM)
1x Land Raider
1x Lascannon Pred with Lascannon Sponsons
1x Whirlwind (kept the regular Rhino back, so i can switch it from game to game)
1x Rhino
1x Drop Pod

I left out the Wargear

Do you guys think i can make a solid list out of that?

Chumbalaya
08-27-2009, 10:10 PM
It's a little bit of everything, but probably workable.

Sammy on speeder (who doesn't love AV14 and all that dakka?), Belial+2 Termie Squads (Apothecary and 2 assault cannons), Tac in a Rhino (gotta have mobile objective grabbers), Dread (good backup for Termies), Land Raider (I hope it's a crusader!) and maybe the Predator.

Lots of armor, durable troops, the only thing you're really missing out on is unit redundancy and melta.

Aenir
08-27-2009, 10:21 PM
It's a little bit of everything, but probably workable.

Sammy on speeder (who doesn't love AV14 and all that dakka?), Belial+2 Termie Squads (Apothecary and 2 assault cannons), Tac in a Rhino (gotta have mobile objective grabbers), Dread (good backup for Termies), Land Raider (I hope it's a crusader!) and maybe the Predator.

Lots of armor, durable troops, the only thing you're really missing out on is unit redundancy and melta.

most of my melta is Melta Bombs, does that count?

mkerr
08-29-2009, 10:45 AM
most of my melta is Melta Bombs, does that count?

No, you need melta weapons that you can apply by turn 2. That usually means meltaguns in units that can deep strike or outflank or move fast.

Meltabombs usually don't come into play until turn 3 or 4 (after you opponent has had half a game to use the tanks you want to destroy). The only good meltabombs are on the Eversor (who can plant them on turn 1).

-- mkerr

Chumbalaya
08-29-2009, 11:18 AM
Melta bombs are a "just in case" measure, never your primary tank busters. They require you to get close and then it's only 1 attack that isn't nearly as effective should the enemy move.

Aenir
08-29-2009, 12:10 PM
ahhh

(and re-reading the post, its just a normal land raider, not a crusader, i honestly fail to see why i would get a crusader, my termi squads are only 5 men, even if i get a character, im not using all the space possible in a crusader)

Chumbalaya
08-29-2009, 12:47 PM
Crusaders complement Terminators better. I'd rather have the TLAC, multi-melta, and hurricane bolters over the TLLC and TLHB.

Aenir
08-29-2009, 01:34 PM
Crusaders complement Terminators better. I'd rather have the TLAC, multi-melta, and hurricane bolters over the TLLC and TLHB.

even when a TLAC is provided by Sammael on a speeder?


I got my LR back before i got the predator, it was my ONLY AT capability for a while

Aenir
09-01-2009, 12:25 PM
I am playing a 2850 battle with a Black Templar/DH/WH mix ( i dont quite know specifically which he is gonna use, probably grey knights) I know his last game he ran with 2 LRs, i am going to try and plan for that

what should i go with?

I was thinking:

Belial with Sword and SBolter 130
Term Squad, Chainfist, Cyclone, TH&SS, Deathwing Standard 265
Tac Squad, MM and Meltagun, SGT. with Powerfist, & Rhino 245 with Rhino
Tac Squad, Plasma gun, ML, Sgt with melta bombs & Rhino as above 245 with rhino
Term Squad with Assault cannon 245
Assault Squad (10 men) Sgt with bombs and PF/Combat Shield 270
Land Raider 250
Predator Annhilator with Lascannon sponsons, 165
1 Venerable Dread, Extra Armor, MM and Dreaddy CCW 160
1 Bike Squadron (3 Bikes) 2 with Chainswords, Sgt with Power Sword and MBombs, Attack Bike with MM 190
1 Scout Squad 4x Sniper rifles and 1x Missile Launcher Sgt with MBombs and a Drop Pod 170 with Pod
1 Command Squad with Standard Bearer (Sacred Standard) Apoth, 2 powerweapons, 1 flamer and a chainsword. 175
1 Inter. Chaplain with Jumppack,140
all that and im at 2650 out of 2850

Command squad is going to pal around with belial in the land raider, Int. Chap and Assault squad are gonna look for pockets of resistance and charge. Bike squad is gonna run around looking to pop vehicles, Rhinos drive around and sit on objectives

Any other ideas for waht i might need to do?

Aenir
09-01-2009, 03:58 PM
Edited:

almost completely removed melta bombs, extra armor (except Dreaddy), HK Miss, and Storm Bolters

swartsengagger
09-01-2009, 04:48 PM
I am playing a 2850 battle with a Black Templar/DH/WH mix ( i dont quite know specifically which he is gonna use, probably grey knights) I know his last game he ran with 2 LRs, i am going to try and plan for that

what should i go with?

I was thinking:

Belial with Sword and SBolter 130
Term Squad, Chainfist, Cyclone, TH&SS, Deathwing Standard 265
Tac Squad, MM and Meltagun, SGT. with Powerfist, & Rhino 245 with Rhino
Tac Squad, Plasma gun, ML, Sgt with melta bombs & Rhino as above 245 with rhino
Term Squad with Assault cannon 245
Assault Squad (10 men) Sgt with bombs and PF/Combat Shield 270
Land Raider 250
Predator Annhilator with Lascannon sponsons, 165
1 Venerable Dread, Extra Armor, MM and Dreaddy CCW 160
1 Bike Squadron (3 Bikes) 2 with Chainswords, Sgt with Power Sword and MBombs, Attack Bike with MM 190
1 Scout Squad 4x Sniper rifles and 1x Missile Launcher Sgt with MBombs and a Drop Pod 170 with Pod
1 Command Squad with Standard Bearer (Sacred Standard) Apoth, 2 powerweapons, 1 flamer and a chainsword. 175
1 Inter. Chaplain with Jumppack,140
all that and im at 2650 out of 2850

Command squad is going to pal around with belial in the land raider, Int. Chap and Assault squad are gonna look for pockets of resistance and charge. Bike squad is gonna run around looking to pop vehicles, Rhinos drive around and sit on objectives

Any other ideas for waht i might need to do?


I always try to give my terminators a specific role on the battlefield, CC or shooting.

Shooty terminators will usually have an assault cannon and a chainfist ( a nice round 250pts :p)

CC terminators will be either 4x TLC 1x TH or the other way around with a Cyclone missile launcher. I almost always put Belial with the 4x TLC unit and upgrade 2 members of the squad to either an apothecary and a standard bearer. If I have the points I sometimes stick an Interrogator-Chaplain in there aswell. These guys kill almost anything they meet.

Command squads are IMO best used as support shooting units with as much plasma as possible and an apothecary, put them near some Devastators with plasma cannons or other plasma gun wielding squads to minimize the possibilities of casualties due to overheating. But the banners are indeed almost worthless.

I don't really get why you would want to put a sniper scout squad in a droppod...

Bikes are also usefull, in both antitank (power fist, meltaguns, meltabombs), anti infantry(plasma guns, apothecary if you have Sammael) or assault(flamers, power weapon(extra attack for sarge) and banner with Sammael) roles. But you need 6 bikes before you can buy the attack bike.

About the dreadnoughts, my favourite is with twin-linked autocannon and ccw with flamer. Good all-round capabilities. But actually all the weapons are good, although the multimelta is less attractive with the short range and limited mobility of the dreadnought(which is why you can put them on a speeder or attackbike ;))

The assault squad with the chaplain is a good choice, I use them often but don't let them get stuck on their own somewhere.

And don't forget :D Dark Angels are uber shooty plasma freaks :cool:

Aenir
09-01-2009, 08:21 PM
picked scouts in pod just because i thought the dread in the pod would be a waste