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Mal
10-27-2010, 05:24 PM
Ok, I don't actually have an army list but I figured this was the best place for this post (as im hoping it'll grow into a list, or at least the basis for one).

Im looking to my next project (i've already brought everything I need to do my DE and i'll be picking them up next week), i've decided on and Imperial Guard infantry list (no AV).

I do have one small problem however... I am familiar with IG and I used to play them a number of years ago... however the builds im used to for 5th are nothing like the build I want to make.

So im a bit stuck as to what could work and what will fail.

I need your advice peoples, what would you recommend I take in an all infantry IG list of 1500 and 2000 points?
What tactics would you recommend? Anything else you think I should know?

Thank in advance.

Flammenwerfer13
10-27-2010, 08:25 PM
What about elites, Fast attacks and Heavy Support?

What is your limit on model types (verse model count)? i.e. Rough Riders models, Psyker Battle squad models, ect.

Also if you want Heavy Support you'll have to take AV, they did away with Heavy Weapons platoons :(

superhappyrobot
10-27-2010, 08:29 PM
The best way to go competitive with an all infantry list is with blob squads. Take big infantry platoons with 3-5 infantry squads and a commissar. Give the sergeants and commissars power weapons and meltabombs, throw in 3-5 lascannons or autocannons, a couple of meltaguns to deal with death or glory, and you're set. Skip conscripts because blob guard just does it better. The above can deal with any threat (aside from maybe 30 charging Ork Boyz). You can go gunline with the heavy weapons or assault with your hidden power weapons and mass of attacks. Don't fear walkers or tank shock, either. Do fear ordnance, though.

Take Company Command Squads as your HQ so you can issue orders to your blob squads. Consider Creed for the four orders a turn and expanded command radius. He'd be good to lead a gunline army and could benefit from a Master of Ordinance for some artillery shots. Remember that Creed can issue "For the Honour of Cadia," as well. If you want to go with an assault-oriented build, consider taking Straken to give your blob squads his buffs. Straken's command squad could be kitted out with bodyguards and priests.

The platoon command squads should be your pinch hitters and could given 4 meltaguns or 4 flamers, but they could also sit back and issue orders. 50 guardsmen being issued "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" would be devastating to any foe.

Vets are great, but suffer from lack of mobility if you're going completely without mech. You could take a vet squad with Harker and infiltrate a couple of heavy weapons behind enemy lines.

Most people don't like Stormtroopers, but I've had luck deep striking a min squad (with a reroll, just in case) with meltaguns close to a prime enemy armor target and vaporizing it.

Skip ogryns, skip rough riders.

superhappyrobot
10-27-2010, 08:30 PM
they did away with Heavy Weapons platoons :(

You can take 5 heavy weapon squads per platoon though. That's plenty of fire power.

Flammenwerfer13
10-27-2010, 09:22 PM
true lol, just not fluffy. I guess I'm nit picking lol.

Mal
10-28-2010, 02:08 AM
The list im building I want to be an all foot army, so no armour what so ever and no rough riders, i'll also want to avoid mutants (I may take psykers but im not sure, without armour to protect them they seem like wasted points).

I'll start playing around with a couple of builds and see what I can come up with, thanks for the input.

Mal
10-28-2010, 03:59 AM
Right i've come up with something to work on... its a first draft so it'll be full of weaknesses and glaring holes...

Lord Commisar (carapace armour, power fist, meltabomb, boltgun)

Infantry platoon:
Platoon command squad (medipack, platoon standard, vox caster, meltagun, krak grenades)
Platoon commander (power fist, meltabomb, boltgun)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)

Infantry platoon:
Platoon command squad (meltagun x3, krak grenades, vox caster)
Platoon commander (power fist, boltgun, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)

Stormtroopers
Stormtrooper sergeant (power weapon)

Total: 1499 points.

DadExtraordinaire
10-28-2010, 06:18 AM
Right i've come up with something to work on... its a first draft so it'll be full of weaknesses and glaring holes...

Lord Commisar (carapace armour, power fist, meltabomb, boltgun)

Infantry platoon:
Platoon command squad (medipack, platoon standard, vox caster, meltagun, krak grenades)
Platoon commander (power fist, meltabomb, boltgun)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)

Infantry platoon:
Platoon command squad (meltagun x3, krak grenades, vox caster)
Platoon commander (power fist, boltgun, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)

Stormtroopers
Stormtrooper sergeant (power weapon)

Total: 1499 points.

Good list Mal, I too am building a foot regt.

Personally I avoid MG on ordinary Guardsmen and instead stick to Flamer (hit automatically and would wound T4 on a 4+ and if partially over a figure or base counts as a full hit).

I would have 1 Heavy Flamer per Pltn HQ or Comp HQ to take out MEQ on 3+ wound, I would stick my MG in Comp HQ, Vets and Storm simply because they have a higher BS. I would utilise AutoCannons for squad support - good at MEQ killing as well as taking out AV10 to 12.

I would also be looking at taking a Penal squad or 2 for the price and what they get is something serious to consider as well as a chance to do some conversions.

A Psyker battle squad would be good too - to take enemy LD low as well as having a great Large Blast psyhic shooting power.

And how about some Rough Rider squads with the Mogul Kamir giving FC plus Lances = 6 str and 6 I on a charge.

Mal
10-28-2010, 06:47 AM
Im trying to avoid psykers, mutants and generally anything not on foot. The idea is to have an army thats going to be a lot of fun to paint (I don't like painting tanks) and easy to play (its going to replace my friendly list as im selling the army... anyone wanna buy a tonne of imperial fists? fully painted, based with case and book?).

I may switch to flamers to remove a little more luck from the army, the lascannons are long range tank killers... There are only 5 in the army which to be fair is very light for primary AT. I may also drop the meltabombs... I really don't want to charge a whole unit into a tank to plant a single bomb... i'd rather sit back and shoot it with the order for bonus penetration.

The storm troopers all have AP3 lasguns... i'd rather not swap those for a single meltagun... the first command squad is there for fluffy reasons more then an actual need for the upgrades they have (as I said, this will not be a competative list), i'd rather have taken a company command squad and attach the commisar there but then i'd have to drop something else I may need to fit them in...

Flammenwerfer13
10-28-2010, 06:58 AM
Right i've come up with something to work on... its a first draft so it'll be full of weaknesses and glaring holes...

Lord Commisar (carapace armour, power fist, meltabomb, boltgun)

Infantry platoon:
Platoon command squad (medipack, platoon standard, vox caster, meltagun, krak grenades)
Platoon commander (power fist, meltabomb, boltgun)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)
Heavy weapons team (lascannon)

Infantry platoon:
Platoon command squad (meltagun x3, krak grenades, vox caster)
Platoon commander (power fist, boltgun, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)
Infantry squad (meltagun, vox caster)
Infantry Sergeant (power weapon, meltabomb)

Stormtroopers
Stormtrooper sergeant (power weapon)

Total: 1499 points.

Try this build: With out adding in Straken this gives you a decent build:

CCS: w/ Regimental Standard, Medi Pack, Carapace Armour, 1x Melta Guns, 1x Flamer Company Commander w/ Power Weapon
Lord Commissar w/ Power Fist, Carapace Armour\
Keep the Lord Commissar with the CCS for 'Feel no Pain' and the squad is Leadership 10 now.

Elite:
Storm Troopers: w/ 2x Meltaguns, Sergeant w/ Power weapon

Troops
2x Platoons as follows:

PCS: 3x Flamers, 1x Heavy Flamer, Commissar w/ Power fist, Commander w/ Power weapon
3x Squads w/ Flamers, Sergeant w/ power weapon, one squad w/ a Commissar w/ a Power Weapon. Blob squad these Squads for 30 man leadership 9 stubborn.
2x heavy Weapons squads with 3x lascannons in each squad.

1500

Mal
10-28-2010, 09:30 AM
No vox casters? I thought they were supposed to be an almost vital upgrade??

I take it to make it all fit in to 1500 there is only 5 stormtroopers?

Flammenwerfer13
10-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Depends on the use of troops, you can play with points a bit get them in but Vox casters are so/so. Especially since your issuing orders at leadership 9 on the infantry squads. The heavy weapons teams can't get vox casters and since you'll have have 4 orders per turn you should be using them all on the heavy weapons teams (LD 7) (bring it down will be your main stay with fire on my target). If you want the pick up vox casters for the infantry squads, drop the Heavy Flamers in the PCS and flamer in the CCS for Vox casters, then 1 vox caster in each combined squad (if your forced to allocate wounds to the vox caster then your screwed anyways. That will leave 20 points to play with. Maybe upgrade power weapons to power fist on the Officers?

Vox casters are ok but they depend on the style of play and what the units that are issuing and receiving are doing if you want to throw them in there.

Mal
10-28-2010, 06:46 PM
I came up with a second list while messing around on army builder... trying to see how many vets I can fit into a 1500 army...

Lord commisar (carapace armour, power fist)
Company command squad (carapace armour, medipack, regimental standard, 2x plasmagun)
Company commander (power fist)
Master of ordnance
Bodyguard
Bodyguard

9 Storm troopers
Storm trooper sergeant (power weapon)

9 Storm troopers
Storm trooper sergeant (power weapon)

9 Storm troopers
Storm trooper sergeant (power weapon)

9 Veterans (3x meltagun)
Veteran sergeant (power weapon)

9 Veterans (3x meltagun)
Veteran sergeant (power weapon)

9 Veterans (3x meltagun)
Veteran sergeant (power weapon)

9 Veterans (3x meltagun)
Veteran sergeant (power weapon)

9 Veterans (3x meltagun)
Veteran sergeant (power weapon)

9 Veterans (3x meltagun)
Veteran sergeant (power weapon)

Total: 1500 points (99 bodies, all BS4 or higher)

Flammenwerfer13
10-28-2010, 08:31 PM
My eyes they bleed!!!! Master of Ordnance ALWAYS scatters,which is bad!!

Also I play an all air drop list with vendettas, Valkyries and vet squads one thing I learn was specialize squads to certain task. Also carapace armour is a huge upgrade, so bolter fire won't wipe you out. Remember your in the open. A squad of 10 marines with 8 bolters is firing 16 bolter shots plus two non save weapons. They hit on average 10-12 times wound about 7-8 times plus usually 2 invulnerable saves. One marine squad will vaporize a +5 Veteran squad with out carapace armour. If your going to move shot, assault here is a balance list with out adding in Harken and Bastonne (Bastonne is worth every point by the way) Storm troopers work best in 5 man details getting the Recon Operations, Scout (Outflank) and Move through cover. So you can do a Space wolf style outflank pop up with two meltaguns pop a tank or worse case 5 krak grenades the turn they show up. Plus if your assaulting a unit 3 Hot-Shot pistols (they're equipped with them ;) ) and 2 melta guns is a nasty surprise. Also Straken would be nasty with list if your willing work with cover and good at timing assaults, nothing makes a marine player cry then when a vet squad shots them up really well then beats them in assault. I laugh. Last thing is the Priest with a Eviscertor you can bounce around between and during games with his "chain fist"

Try this list reworked.

CCS: Astropath, w/ Carapace Armour, Regimental Standard w/ Laspistol, Medi pack w/ laspistol, 2x Meltaguns. Commander w/ Power Fist (180)
Lord Commissar w/ Carapace Armour and Power Fist (95)
Ministorum Priest w/ a shotgun and Eviscerator (60)
(3 power fist on the charge with re-roll to hit makes this a good counter assault unit for anyone who get close.

Elites:
2x 5-man Storm Trooper Squads w/ 2x Melta guns and a Sergeant with a Power weapon

Troops:
3x Base of fire squads equipped as followed:
Carapace Armour, 1x Melta gun, 2x Plasma guns, 1x Missile Launcher (also equipped with a lasgun), and 4 lasguns and a Veteran Sergeant with a laspistol and CCW

2x Counter Assault Squads equipped as followed:
Carapace Armour, 2x Melta guns, 1 Heavy Flamer, 6 Shotguns, Veteran Sergeant with a Shotgun and Power Fist

1x Anti Armour Sqaud equipped as followed:
Carapace Armour, Demolitions, 3x Melta guns, 6 Shotguns, Veteran Sergeant with a Shotgun and Power Fist

1x Anti-Light infantry Squad equipped as followed:
Carapace Armour, 2x Flamers, 1x Heavy Flamer, 6 Shotguns, Veteran Sergeant with a Laspistol and Power weapon

You can drop a plasma gun in each base of fire squad and upgrade the missile launcher to a lascannon if you want but missile launcher gives you flexibility between frag and krak missiles

ElCheezus
11-01-2010, 03:36 PM
Okay, so if you're going for all on foot, and no armor or cavalry or mutants, you have very, very few options.

First off, Veterans without Chimeras (even with Carapace), are too vulnerable without a Chimera, and no good in CC. I'd only take them with Harker. With Infiltrate you can Outflank a group, which has its uses.

Lord Commissar is far too expensive, and an IC. If he's joined to a unit, he can be singled out too easily and lost before combat resolution, making him mostly useless. Your best HQ choices are going to be CCS, either with Creed and Kell for amazing order issuing, or with Strakken to buff your blobs. If you're going to do blobs backed by HWS, then I'd almost suggest both, but lean toward Creed and Kell if points don't allow. Having Kell means you don't need to use any Voxes, which is even better since HWS can't even take them.

Your Infantry Platoons are going to be a major part of your army, obviously. You'll want blobs of either 20 or 30. I personally found groups of 30 to be unfun, but their resilience can't be denied. You'll want these groups to be assaulting, which means you want a few things at minimum: 1) a commissar for each group, but not a lord commissar. The one you can buy as an upgrade isn't an IC, so he can't be picked out in assault. 2) PWs for anyone who can hold them. These usually do more damage than all of the other rank and file guardsman attacks 3) A priest with an Eviscerator and Shotgun. He gives you rerolls when you assault, which is amazing with that many attacks. As already suggested, Melta bombs and/or Krak Grenades are a must, as well. I lean toward Krak Grenades, in case you run into a Walker. Having 3 MB and needing a 6 to score makes me worry. I would never put a HW team in a blob. The blob should be moving and running if they're not in assault range. FRFSRF is good for something that's close, but needs to be softened up. In all of these cases, the HW team won't be able to fire.

Your PCS are in an odd spot. I wouldn't personally give them any CC equiment, because they're likely to get eaten before they swing, anyway. They're a good place to put Meltas. Hide them within a blob, and fire to take out transports or any vehicles. Otherwise only put them in CC if a blob is already engaged.

HWS are kind of self-explanatory. You'll want enough to provide long-range support. I suggest either AutoCannons or LasCannons. ACs are better, mathematically, than Missile Launchers at taking down transports of AV11 or 12. LasCannons are good, but a little 'spensive. Up to your taste.

You might want to look into Al'Rahem. His entire Platoon, including blobs and SWS have to outflank. Plus he has better orders than a usual PCS. This can give you flexibility and surprise to what is otherwise usually a slowish army. If you go this route, I could see an argument to add a Veteran Squad with Harker to add some punch. He totes a relentless Heavy Bolter, so adding some more firepower could support an outflanking blob. Maybe GLs, to keep the AP4 and decent range? I haven't though so much on them, so I'm guessing here. Of course, if you use outflankers, you'll want an Astropath to make sure you come in on the correct side.

Storm Troopers can also fill a vital role if you have no

So here's what I'm thinking.

CCS W/ Creed & Kell, w/ Lascannon, Astropath

Storm Troopers 5-man unit, Meltax2
Storm Troopers 5-man unit, Meltax2

Infantry Platoon:
Al'rahem w/ meltax4 (this is to taste, depending on your meta. Could easily be plasma orflamers if you have more infantry armies)
22 man-blob w/ Commissar, 3x PW, and Priest w/ Eviscerator
SWS (equp similar to Al'rahem's group for added punch)

Infantry Platoon:
PCS Meltax4
22 man-blob w/ Commissar, 3x PW, and Priest w/ Eviscerator
22 man-blob w/ Commissar, 3x PW, and Priest w/ Eviscerator
3x HWS with 3x LasCannons

Veterans w/ Harker and GLx3

Sorry about not calculating points: I'm at work without a 'Dex. There should be plenty to play with by adding SWS or HWT, ore even another platoon. I'm no master of foot guard, but that should give you a good idea of some of what I consider the main points.

Mal
11-02-2010, 03:11 AM
Your suggesting taking a chimera for the command squad and characters from 3 different worlds...

The IG will not be my competative army, they are to replace my non competative army.

I don't want an army that will smash face when ever I play it, I want an army thats going to be fun to collect and paint and amusing to play (other then orks, I don't like painting green, which is why im selling them).

The army will be based roughly from commisar cain (although with catachans or cadians instead of valhallens, they are just too expensive and only come in male form). I'll probally do the pdf force from the second seige of perila as this will grant me access to lower ranked commisars (commisar cadets) and the PCF advisors (rorkins and visiter).

Yes I know cain had access to chimeras and salamanders during that engagement, however mixed IG tank force is simply too strong to be considered a friendly army in my local metagame, which is why its to be an all foot army.

I am taking a commisar lord to represent cain and attaching him to any squad that has a trooper with a melatgun to represent jurgen (thats going to be a fun conversion).

ElCheezus
11-02-2010, 09:31 AM
I never mentioned a Chimera in the list. I find the idea of playing 4 different characters to be more angled toward fun than competitive. I actually think this list has quite a number of holes, especially when guard can play chimera vet spam that's oh-so-successful.

If you're looking for a purposely bad army, then why ask for help instead of just hitting "random" in your head and throwing things into place?

If you want something adhering to specific fluff, you might want to mention that, as well.

I'm coming across as a dick, but that's because I spent a while trying to help, and then you changed all the rules and shot down everything suggested. Heck, it even sounds like you've already made your list.

Mal
11-02-2010, 10:14 AM
I never mentioned a Chimera in the list. I find the idea of playing 4 different characters to be more angled toward fun than competitive. I actually think this list has quite a number of holes, especially when guard can play chimera vet spam that's oh-so-successful.

If you're looking for a purposely bad army, then why ask for help instead of just hitting "random" in your head and throwing things into place?

If you want something adhering to specific fluff, you might want to mention that, as well.

I'm coming across as a dick, but that's because I spent a while trying to help, and then you changed all the rules and shot down everything suggested. Heck, it even sounds like you've already made your list.

Im not sure what sort of reply you expected from this... but I just spent the past 20 mins rewriting this reply to not be completly insulting. This is not a good sign.

For the record I have not changed the rules on anything, so im using the commisar lord as cain... that changes nothing, it simply means im going to include a commisar lord in my list, which has been a constant for every list I posted, perhaps I could have told people the reason for this but I honestly didn't see it as an issue.

I am not the kind of person to copy a weblist exactly, im the kind of person who takes inspiration and ideas from weblists and works them into my own, so don't be offended if I don't use your list per verbatim... I won't do that for anyone.

I admit I made a mistake about the chimera, when I first read your post (not the list) it sounded like you were strongly advocating the use of transports, I reread it after your reply and found my mistake. Apologies to you for that.

As for the rest, you couldn't be further from the truth.

I have not made my army list yet, I spend months (yes months, not hours) working on army lists before I buy an army, I have to do this because I live on a tight budget and if I didn't then I wouldn't be able to afford to play the game.

Anyway, I haven't discarded your suggestions, i've added them to my pool of ideas from which I work.
The only aspect I discarded was the use of HQ's from different fluff sources as this is a move GW made for 5th that I strongly disagree with.

I have to say though your comment about hitting a 'random button' to make my army lists was singularly insulting and probally the single least helpful comment i've received this year.
You have chosen to take offense where none was given. Please in future, consider first if someone is actually being offensive before taking offense.

ElCheezus
11-02-2010, 10:58 AM
So tell me what your guidelines are, and what *is* working for you, and we'll go from there.

I didn't so much take offense as feel like my post was pointless, and that, as I said, you already had your mind made up. I dumped a whole lot of info, and all I got was "No. I'ma go do this." After this paragraph, though, I'm not interested in an internet fight, it doesn't get anywhere, and we'd bother rather make fun lists.

So a Lord Commissar HQ. I've never used one, so I don't know how to equip them. At all. /shrug

I don't know very much fluff, so I'm not so sure on what characters are "in."

If you like Catachans, Veterans might still have a place, if you give them "Forward Sentries". For some reason this always felt like a Catachan doctrine, with their forest theme. I'm pretty sure they get camo cloaks from there, so if you can stick to cover, that'll actually pay off. If you want to make sure you have cover, I've been toying with the idea of taking a large group of conscripts solely for a meatshield. They need some way to buff their Ld 5, though, so a Lord Commissar or a Priest would be good. (Priest especially, their WS is so low, they would really benefit from the rerolls) Hide your Vets in this group, and they'll have 3+ cover from intervening units and the cloaks. If you get assaulted, they can counter-charge with a Power Fist or something.

With Conscripts, it might be worth taking Chenkov and his ability "Send in the next wave". I like this ability mainly since it removes the conscripts from the table, and less because they can come back on. If your conscripts are being a meat shield, they can cluster the enemy and get in the way. Use Chenkov to kill them off, and suddenly the enemy is sitting in the open, no longer in combat; a good time for FRFSRF or flamers or other such implements of destruction. And they thought they were safe. . .

I spend a decent amount of time thinking about fun infantry stuff, but I usually don't have the patience to move that many models. So sad to say I have no idea how these thought play out, they just sound fun.

Flammenwerfer13
11-02-2010, 10:58 AM
If you go this route, I could see an argument to add a Veteran Squad with Harker to add some punch. He totes a relentless Heavy Bolter, so adding some more firepower could support an outflanking blob. Maybe GLs, to keep the AP4 and decent range? I haven't though so much on them, so I'm guessing here.

Run Harken with 3x Grenade launchers and a Missile launcher and keep them in cover.
I also put camo cloaks on them so they get 3+ cover saves even if Harken dies and have defensive grenades. They're a good squad to sit on an objective and provide support by fire. Good luck having someone shot them off the target ;)

155 or 185 depending on if you take camo cloaks or not.

Mal
11-03-2010, 08:09 AM
Right i've taken the advice given into consideration and I have come up with the first semi-serious list, there is a lot of stuff thats in this list that is simply redundant or just plain bad, but thats there for fluff reasons (and while its not going to be set in stone, i'd like to keep some of these elements).

Ok then... the list...

Lord commisar (ciaphas cain), carapace armour (which is 'forgot to return to the stores'), camo cloak (to represent his always trying to stay alive) and a power weapon (I know he only has a CCW but hes a world class swordsman so I figured a powerweapon was a reasonable upgrade to represent this).
CCS, carapace amour, krak grenades, medi-pack, vox-caster (not needed, but IG always have them), meltagun (jurgen).
Colour sergeant kell
Lord castellan creed (rorkins)
Bodyguard x2
Master of ordinance (brasker)
Master of the fleet (visiter)

Infantry platoon:
PCS, medi pack, platoon standard, vox-caster, heavy flamer.
Platoon commander, bolt pistol, power fist.
Commisar (donal), power fist.

Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon.
Commisar (nels), power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon.

Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon.
Commisar (stebbins), power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon.

Heavy weapons team, autocannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.

Veteran squad, grenadiers, vox-caster, heavy flamer, flamer x2.
Sergeant Bastonne.

Total: 1500.

The infantry squads will run as blobs of 20 with a commisar leading each blob.

Let me know what you think, and any areas you think that can be improved, also any ideas for increasing the force to 2k points.

*Edit*

I've gone with the cadian forces as I feel that these represent the majority of the pdf forces well.

ElCheezus
11-03-2010, 11:16 AM
I've never seen Heavy Flamers as worth their points compared to regular flamers when put on infantry. If you used regular flamers in the two places you have them, you'd gain 30 points. Maybe for a Standard in your CCS (maily for fluff, as I tihink you have rerolls everywhere you'd want them).

Against vehicles, which are a big part of the meta, you only have the HWTs. Hopefully they'll do well, but they can be a little vulnerable. Ways to improve on this would be melta-equipped SWS and/or melta bombs in your blobs. Maybe even switch the flamers in the Vet squad to Meltas. I think the melta bombs would be the first step, as it's cheap and doesn't really require much of a change in your strategy with them.

For scaling up, I'd suggest another Infantry Platoon, with more blobs. Not only is it very guar-y, but with four blobs, you're practically guaranteed to have models on the table through the whole game. Your opponent can have fun killing you by the handfull, and you can have fun still having operational units. Luckily food-guard scale pretty easily since Infantry Platoons can be so many guys. More than 80 dudes (I think) in a single Force Org slot is kinda awesome.

Mal
11-03-2010, 12:43 PM
I can't add a banner to the CCS as I have kell in there and he has the banner.

Flammenwerfer13
11-03-2010, 09:58 PM
I can't add a banner to the CCS as I have kell in there and he has the banner.
drop the krak grendaes on the ccs

Drop the flamers and heavy flamers and go for 3 meltaguns. Bastonne can issue orders to his squad and 'Bring it down' on three meltaguns with leadership 10 is well epic at times. Plus he can be anywhere and doesn't have to be with in 24" of Creed.

Mal
11-04-2010, 03:42 AM
Lord commisar, carapace armour, camo cloak and a power weapon.
CCS, carapace amour, medi-pack, vox-caster, meltagun.
Colour sergeant kell
Lord castellan creed
Bodyguard x2
Master of ordinance
Master of the fleet

Infantry platoon:
PCS, medi pack, platoon standard, vox-caster, flamer.
Platoon commander, bolt pistol, power fist.
Commisar (donal), power fist.

Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon.
Commisar (nels), power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon.

Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon.
Commisar (stebbins), power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon.

Heavy weapons team, autocannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.

Veteran squad, grenadiers, vox-caster, meltagun x3.
Sergeant Bastonne.

Total: 1480.

Ok, but what should I do with the remaining 20 points?

ElCheezus
11-04-2010, 10:13 AM
Meltas for the Sergeants in blobs would be my vote. All they have to threaten armor is grenade launchers, which aren't much.

Mal
11-04-2010, 10:58 AM
Lord commisar, carapace armour, camo cloak and a power weapon.
CCS, carapace amour, medi-pack, vox-caster, meltagun.
Colour sergeant kell
Lord castellan creed
Bodyguard x2
Master of ordinance
Master of the fleet

Infantry platoon:
PCS, medi pack, platoon standard, vox-caster, flamer.
Platoon commander, bolt pistol, power fist.
Commisar (donal), power fist.

Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon, melta bomb.
Commisar, power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon, melta bomb.

Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon, melta bomb.
Commisar, power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon, melta bomb.

Heavy weapons team, autocannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.

Veteran squad, grenadiers, vox-caster, meltagun x3.
Sergeant Bastonne.

Total: 1500.

Any other ideas? Or do you think this is good enough for me to start work on the 2k list?

Commander Vimes
11-04-2010, 11:05 AM
Lord commisar, carapace armour, camo cloak and a power weapon.
CCS, carapace amour, medi-pack, vox-caster, meltagun.
Colour sergeant kell
Lord castellan creed
Bodyguard x2
Master of ordinance
Master of the fleet


Perfectly fluffy and good. From a competitive standpoint Cain would be better off with a powerfist, but I'm not sure that's justifiable. Also I don't think Kell is needed. Cain already gives his leadership for orders to everyone with 6", and the voxes give you a reroll. I would really recommend dropping him for a normal guy with a banner as he doesn't add anything from a fluff or competitive perspective. I also don't think either adviser is particularly helpful, but that is your call.



Infantry platoon:
PCS, medi pack, platoon standard, vox-caster, flamer.
Platoon commander, bolt pistol, power fist.
Commisar (donal), power fist.


I dislike putting a lot of points into PCSs especially if they don't have a chimera. They are simply too fragile. In my blob guard army I have actually modeled the PCS as special weapons teams led by a sergeant and have my big blobs with one sergeant modeled as a lieutenant. I think this unit would be best with a couple of flamers and no Commissar.



Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon.
Commisar (nels), power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon.

Infantry squad, vox-caster, flamer.
Sergeant, power weapon.
Commisar (stebbins), power weapon.

Infantry squad, grenade launcher.
Sergeant, power weapon.


I've played with large blobs of Guardsmen and found that 20 is just not enough to matter. 30 is pretty good, but even then I find I start running out of guys towards the end of the game. I would add another platoon command squad (bare bones) and take two platoons with:

3x squads with power weapon, melta-gun, and one squad with a vox and a Commissar with a power weapon.

Normally BS3 melta isn't very good, but with Creed around to reliably give them Bring It Down, they are fairly reliable against vehicles.



Heavy weapons team, autocannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.
Heavy weapons team, lascannon x3.
I personally dislike lascannon teams, but love autocannon teams. I think your better off with autocannons to pop light vehicles, and then leaving the heavy stuff for your platoon meltas.



Veteran squad, grenadiers, vox-caster, meltagun x3.
Sergeant Bastonne.


I really don't like Bastonne, especially since the unit doesn't have a transport or any way of getting across the board. It will be hard to find times when Creed won't be in range. I'd recommend Harker if you want to save Creed's Scout ability for another unit, otherwise, these guys are fine with just 3 meltaguns and grenadiers if you really want to protect them.

ElCheezus
11-04-2010, 02:42 PM
Perfectly fluffy and good. From a competitive standpoint Cain would be better off with a powerfist, but I'm not sure that's justifiable. Also I don't think Kell is needed. Cain already gives his leadership for orders to everyone with 6", and the voxes give you a reroll. I would really recommend dropping him for a normal guy with a banner as he doesn't add anything from a fluff or competitive perspective. I also don't think either adviser is particularly helpful, but that is your call.

I disagree with your reasons for taking Kell out. The most important group that needs orders is the HWSs, and they can't take Voxes (but they can take krak grenades and SWS can't. I dare you to try and tell me that isn't backwards). They either need a consistent LD boost, or Kell to help get orders through. While there are leadership auras that can help, they're usually pretty small, and it really llimits your delopoyment and movement ability if you depend on them.

That said, I usually don't see people take Kell, even if they have HWSs. However, playing a fun and fluffy list gives the perfect excuse.


I personally dislike lascannon teams, but love autocannon teams. I think your better off with autocannons to pop light vehicles, and then leaving the heavy stuff for your platoon meltas.

I also disagree with this. If there was only on HWS, I'd choose Autocannons over LasCannons, for sure. But since there are multiple, going for heavier firepower seems right to me. (warning, quick math ahead, erros are possible) Against AV12, they have the same chance for a damage results in a team of 3, though the AutoCannon skews toward glances. Against higher AV, the LasCannon starts to dominate, and against lower AV, the AutoCannon gains a little. I see where you're going with the Metlas, but I personally favour long range over short most times.

Mal
11-04-2010, 03:00 PM
For the 2k list I thought about adding a second infantry platoon kitted out much the same way but with only a single 20 strong blob of troops and 1 less lascannon HWT...

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggesions?

ElCheezus
11-04-2010, 03:42 PM
I don't know offhand how the points work out, but it sounds like a decent move to me. When mech dominates so much, you'll probably find a lot of highpowered weaponry going to waste on single guardsmen. The thing to watch out for in terms of gameplay is other horde armies. Boyz usually mow over guard blobs without much effort. They have the same number of dudes with twice as many attacks. I'd suggest kitting out a PCS or a SWS with flamers to cover the anti-swarm angle if you have points. Usually that's covered with Hull Heavy Flamers on Chimeras or with other armored options like Valks with MRP, Hellhounds, or artillery, so your list might lack a bit in that direction.

Mal
11-05-2010, 04:28 AM
im not all that concerned about hordes, there are only 2 horde players in any of my gaming groups... and im one of them ;)

Flammenwerfer13
11-05-2010, 11:25 AM
Perfectly fluffy and good. From a competitive standpoint Cain would be better off with a powerfist, but I'm not sure that's justifiable. Also I don't think Kell is needed. Cain already gives his leadership for orders to everyone with 6", and the voxes give you a reroll. I would really recommend dropping him for a normal guy with a banner as he doesn't add anything from a fluff or competitive perspective. I also don't think either adviser is particularly helpful, but that is your call.
Kell is still worth the 2 wounds and the ability to have either a power fist or power sword. So if need be have Creed issue "For the honour of Cadia!" and now Kell is a I5 Power Sword killing 1-2 marines before they even get to swing. Plus Kell > Lord Commissar is that Creed has a 24" command radius those all units with 24" take Creed leadership verse the 6" from the Lord Commissar as long as you take Kell. I'm running for my command squad in my guard army, Straken, Kell, Medic, Meltgun, Flamer, Astopath, Carapace Armour, Ministorum Priest with a Eviserator.



I personally dislike lascannon teams, but love autocannon teams. I think your better off with autocannons to pop light vehicles, and then leaving the heavy stuff for your platoon meltas.
Overall Lascannons have a better return value as long as they're receiving orders, if not then autocannons.

Commander Vimes
11-05-2010, 05:55 PM
I really disagree with the 20 man platoons. I've played with platoons sized from 20-50 and found 20 to simply not have enough Guardsmen to grind down the enemy. For a while I had one of 30 and one of 20. The 20 man squad would consistently be finished off in a round of combat, often on my turn, while the 30 man squad could consistently hold a 3-4 rounds and often win combat against anything that didn't have a lot of attacks. The extra ten guys improves the army's power more than putting those ten guys anywhere else.

10 Guardsmen is a pushover.

20 Guardsmen will slow you down a little while.

30 Guardsmen are seriously annoying and will bog down and gnaw to death a Carnifex.

40 Guardsmen is a serious threat to anything and will, slowly, chew through assault terminators, Khorne Berserker, and Daemon Princes.

Basically Guardsmen get better the more of them there are in a single unit.

Mal
11-06-2010, 03:10 AM
the problem is if I have them all in a single unit, then you can garuntee my opponents will concentrate their anti-infantry firepower on them from the getgo... after all, it'd take an impressive terrain feature to hide 40 guardsmen in...

ElCheezus
11-06-2010, 08:46 AM
I really disagree with the 20 man platoons. I've played with platoons sized from 20-50 and found 20 to simply not have enough Guardsmen to grind down the enemy. For a while I had one of 30 and one of 20. The 20 man squad would consistently be finished off in a round of combat, often on my turn, while the 30 man squad could consistently hold a 3-4 rounds and often win combat against anything that didn't have a lot of attacks. The extra ten guys improves the army's power more than putting those ten guys anywhere else.

10 Guardsmen is a pushover.

20 Guardsmen will slow you down a little while.

30 Guardsmen are seriously annoying and will bog down and gnaw to death a Carnifex.

40 Guardsmen is a serious threat to anything and will, slowly, chew through assault terminators, Khorne Berserker, and Daemon Princes.

Basically Guardsmen get better the more of them there are in a single unit.

I'm not sure what you're fighting against, but I've had groups of 20 absolutely wreck TMCs. Guard blobs (as mentioned before) don't do so well against other swarms. Other armies generally have better initiative and more attacks, which our crap armor doesn't help against. If you're going against something with a lower model count, you should be decently able to handle yourself with 20 or 30, unless they're a decidated "I'm a badass CC unit" or something.

Guy in our gaming circle runs four groups of 20, and usually loses 2. But the cost in time and units it takes to kill them mean that the other two blobs clean up fairly well.

Either way, though, just because you intend to get into CC with a unit doesn't mean you shouldn't also pour firepower into it, weakening them beforehand. Our lazers go pew pew pew!

Commander Vimes
11-07-2010, 05:45 PM
I'm not sure what you're fighting against, but I've had groups of 20 absolutely wreck TMCs. Guard blobs (as mentioned before) don't do so well against other swarms. Other armies generally have better initiative and more attacks, which our crap armor doesn't help against. If you're going against something with a lower model count, you should be decently able to handle yourself with 20 or 30, unless they're a decidated "I'm a badass CC unit" or something.

Guy in our gaming circle runs four groups of 20, and usually loses 2. But the cost in time and units it takes to kill them mean that the other two blobs clean up fairly well.


I find 30 much more effective than 20, partially because with only 20 taking 6-7 casualties from shooting puts you at a number where you can be wiped out in one round of assault. I prefer my blobs to be able to take 10-15 casualties and still reliably be able to bog down and hurt stuff. Also, running groups of 20 means you have to buy more Commissars to keep them in line. I field two 40 man blobs and so I only need two commissars. If you run four of 20 that's 70 more points spent on Commissars who don't fight well for their cost. With two blobs of 40 I find that I often end the game with both in the 15-25 range, which is still quite threatening because they still have five power weapons three meltas and a flamer.


Either way, though, just because you intend to get into CC with a unit doesn't mean you shouldn't also pour firepower into it, weakening them beforehand. Our lazers go pew pew pew!

You're definitely right here. I usually FRFSR my platoons and suffer the charge instead of charging myself. I will charge if the enemy unit is threatening other important units, like my Russes, or if they get boosts from charging like Orks and Blood Angels. If Straken is around I'll also charge T5 units for the 5+ instead of 6+ to wound. But most of the time it is better to be shooting.

Mal
11-09-2010, 07:31 AM
Well since the size of the blobs doesn't change the army list (i can decide before game how I want to run them) then I can try both methods using the same army list (ok I may have to jump 1 infantry squad from one platoon to the other, it'll still be the same points.

So aside from teh size of the blobs, is there any other advice or knowledge that I should take into account?

Mal
11-11-2010, 02:20 PM
I picked up the first of the troops today, 4 boxes of intantry, 3 boxes of heavy weapon squads (3 teams per box), 2 command squads and 3 commisars... the rest of the stuff wasn't on the shelves so i'll have to wait...

Although tbh I rarely move this fast when starting a new army... hope im not making a royal mess of things :p