PDA

View Full Version : 1850 Tau Ion cannon vs Railgun



Coffeemugg
11-07-2010, 11:00 AM
So after many many game with my tau army I have started to notice somthing- Hammerhead railguns never seem to be worth what I pay for them.

I read and read Tau forums and talk with players and they are always saying that you MUST equip this tank with the railgun. I have played along with this for quite a long time, so long infact that I forgot the stat line of the Ion Cannon.

In my army lists,as most Tau players would, I use my hammerheads as a mobile terrain. Using them to screen my battle suits.

Maybe this would be better if I showed the amry list I play, and the strategy behind it.
Bare with me because just talking about Railgun vs Ion cannon will NEED context.

HQ- Shas'el
Missile Pod(Autocannon profile for those that do not know tau)
Fusion gun(melta gun)
Multi Tracker(allows the mini to fire 2 weapons)
Drone Controller-Shield Drone
Stim injector- FNP

This guy comes in at an amazing 104 points- His 1 and only purpose is to Deep strike and hammer medium to light tanks like Manticore's, Vindicators, and things of that sort. He is completely expendable.

Elite- Battle suit squad
3 suits-Twinlinked Missile Pods and a Flamer

These guys are my bread and butter- coming in at 141 points for 3 suits these guys play a very specific fire support roll- Hammering Light vehicles and infantry with 6 missiles a turn. I run 2 squads of these. The idea is that they have an amazing reach and rarely get engaged by the enemy. I will run these in tandem with the hammer head. The hammer head will move 12 fire and the suits will move 6 fire and JSJ behind the hammerhead making them a very hard target to deal with. You will notice that they are equipped with flamers as well. This is not just because they are cheap. They play a verry unique roll in that they are protection against outflankers like Genestealers and thins of the like.

Elite- Battle suit squad
3 suits- Team Lead and 2 suits - Plasmaguns and Fusion with fusion gun.
Team lead drone controller-Shield Drone

This unit like the HQ has t specific rolls to paly. First off they deep strike.
They are made for killing off heavy tanks or medium-heavy infantry. They are designed to come in ware you need them the most filling any roll that is being missed by the rest of the army. They typically die but deal so much damage when they arrive it is usually worth it. They tend to cripple an important unit in an enemys amry to the point that its hard to recover from.

Troops-
6 fire warriors in a Devilfish.
Devilfish is equipped with Disruption Pods(basically a 4+ cover save)
Multi-Tracker-(makes the tank able to fire as though it were a fast tank)
Flichette Discharger- automatically wounds every modle it is engaged with in CC on a 4+

This user comes in at 160 points- I run 3 units. They never start on the table. These are my scoring units and for the points are the least effective unit I have in the army. I keep them in researve to come in late game and claim or contest objectives. Keeping them off the table allows me to keep them alive long enough to effect the game.

Fast-

3 Piranha's
Fusion gus
Flechette dischargers

These guys are for taking care of any armor. They start on the table. They are a fire distraction and extremely fast. With front armor 11 they are hard to deal with without Heavy weapon fire. They are also really good at contesting objectives.

Heavy-

Broadside team-
I run a 2 man squad with a team lead.
They are also equipped with Advanced Stabilizer System(slow and purposefull)
Team lead has a Drone controller with a Shield drone.

These guys are made for Killing Tanks. Nuf said.
They are usually setup in near the middle of the table, elevated if possible.

Then Last but not least

The Hammer head-

Now for a long time I have rant this load out.

Railgun, burst cannons, Disruption Pods, Multi Tracker, and Flechette Dischargers-
This comes in at around 180 points.

Now the tanks purpose is to screen my Twinlinked Missile Pod suits and put out a supressive fire.
They typically take the brunt of my opponents heavy weapons fire as they are feared.
The problem i run into is that when you miss with a railgun it is a tragedy. Even at BS 4 they will miss at least twice in a 6 turn game and that is not good.

Looking at the Ion Cannon from all angles. Im thinking it looks better an better all the time.
At St7 ap3 Heavy 3 it has a versatile roll right off the bat.
St 7 is able to glance or pen armor 11 and 12 relatively consistently, and with 3 shots at BS 4 you are hitting with 2 most of the time.
At AP3 it has some obvious uses as well. Killing MEQ . My army dose not have alot of AP weapons that are not focused on other things. The Ion Cannons would give me another tool for taking on units otherwise ignored by the railgun. Also equipped with Burst cannons it allows the tank to lean tword anti infantry than anti tank.

Also at a 35 less points than a railgun the output seems to be more.

Now I know that some people would argue that the railgun in Submunition Is better but I have to be hoest. It NEVER seems to make the points you pay for it.

My army has plenty of tank kill in it oustide the 2 Hammerhead railguns. 2 railguns and 7 fusion guns is enough to kill most heavy armor.
I have 7 Missile pods as well . On turn 1 I am able to engage 6 tanks or units, and as the game goes on It averages to be about the same a threat lands on the table and some of my units die.

So what am I looking for? Input form some non tau players-

I kinda want to know if im just nuts.(prolly am)

Would non tau players tend to ignore the Ion tank vs the Railgun?

With the Points I can save( 98 to be exact) I could add in a few Items. What do you think would add a better dimensino to the army?

Another HQ equipped almoast Identical giving me the ability to land 2 tank killers whare I need them.

Another Piranah making it possible to run 2 2man squads instead of 1 3 man squad

A 3rd Braod Side with Target Lock allowing him to target a different tank than the rest of the squad.
Efectivly making my army only loose 1 railgun.

Input will be help greatly.

Thanks!

blackarmchair
11-07-2010, 08:15 PM
Ok. I've had a lot of experience against Tau, one of my good friends has played them for about 2+ years now.

Your list has a great foundation. I only have a few suggestions. Drop 1 of the fire warrior squads. Take the 3x Piranhas and make them 3 units of 1. Change each crisis suit into the fireknife config (Missile Pod and Plasmagun). Also, try to strip away some of the superfluous upgrades. Crisis teams need only guns and a multi-tracker nothing else. Shas'el doesn't need FNP nor shield drones.

For heavy slots you want a hammerhead with a railgun and a broadside team of 3 with only a shield drone (maybe 2) and multi-trackers.

At 2k include some kroot for counter-attack goodness. In fact, in this list I'd still include one even if it means dropping one the fire warrior squads.

The basic strategy behind this Tau list (and really...any tau list) is to keep your opponent at bay. What you do is take those piranhas and park in front of enemy vehicles and attempts to blow them up with your meltas. When assaulted your flachette dischargers will do SOME damage. When they inevitably blow up deploy the drones they come with in front of the squad/vehicles giving your opponent something else to contend with. Hold your firewarriors in reserve, park them on an objective and park the fish in front of them and go to ground every turn if they get shot.

Once your opponent finally gets past this annoying block you have the kroot for counter-attack.

This entire time your suits are hammering away with their long-range weapons. Works really well.

egorene
11-07-2010, 08:44 PM
Personally as Tau-player i would suggest take more firewarriors .

Hammerheads are always primary targets , but tyranids are very afraid of Ion canons .
VS SM and Variants , more Firewarriors .
What about just zero devilfishs ?

So so can keep all your FW together and create a wonderful killing field .

By the way why do take the piranhas ?
I can read what you write bu in my opinion they arent worth their points .

But what about stealth suits ?

Commander Vimes
11-07-2010, 10:08 PM
I'm a quite successful Tau player winning more than half my games in a pretty competitive environment.

I agree with your assessment that the Hammerhead Railgun is a lack luster performer for its cost. At BS4, and especially with no markerlight support, it is unreliable as a tank hunter. The submunition is good but, with cover saves being so easy to get, rather expensive for the results. The ion cannon is cheaper and just as good against infantry and light transports. Personally, I find hammerheads to be too fragile at close range and expensive compared to broadsides, and not fast enough to avoid assault any better, so I don't field any. If I was going to though I'd go with an Ionhead because it makes a great distracting unit to run up a flank. That way it gets side armor shots, and the enemy will have to divert a unit to close enough to it to reliably kill it.


In response to some of the general comments Blackarmchair made on your list:

Take the 3x Piranhas and make them 3 units of 1. Change each crisis suit into the fireknife config (Missile Pod and Plasmagun). Also, try to strip away some of the superfluous upgrades. Crisis teams need only guns and a multi-tracker nothing else. Shas'el doesn't need FNP nor shield drones.


I disagree with combining the piranhas because you're turning two moderately difficult kill points into six that will die to an excessively vigorous sneeze.

I also disagree with people's love of fire knives. My deathrains have always served me well for a smaller point cost. The BS3 plasma rifle is a trap. Unless you're fielding plenty of markerlights to ensure hits, I say don't bother. You aren't that strapped for anti-terminator firepower.

I agree the Shas'el doesn't need the extra defensive wargear if he's going to deepstrike because he will die the next turn regardless. But putting 2 shield drones on him and joining him to another unit, especially Broadsides, he really helps increase their survivability.


One general comment of my own: I think your list would really benefit from some markerlights. The plasma/fusion suits and the broadsides both love having their BS boosted and their targets to lose their cover saves. 106 points buys you 8 pathfinders with a Shas'ui for leadership. The points saved on the Railheads gets you close, and you can just transfer a Fire Warrior devilfish to the pathfinders and have the Fire Warriors hop in first turn.

blackarmchair
11-08-2010, 01:45 AM
My mistake. The suits should be taking the upgrade to BS4.

In response to egorene. I'm glad that you've had luck with fire warriors but all things considered, they're really poor.They shoot essentially like space marines with bolters, BS3 + S5 is the same as BS4 + S4. They don't have good stats anywhere and you pay lots of points for them. They're decent at holding points just because they can stay relevant from afar (30in range) but if anything - and I mean anything - wants them dead, they're dead. Essentially, for a competitive environment they're over-costed and underpowered.

Coffeemugg
11-08-2010, 08:00 AM
I have been messing around with the Idea of having some pathfinders.

I have always felt them to be a point sink, but have not playtested them a ton.

I am going to try a list with the Ion Heads. If I drop a few items of wargear from other units I can come up with 108 points pretty easy.

I will try the pathfinders and see what happens.

Rapture
11-08-2010, 08:16 AM
My mistake. The suits should be taking the upgrade to BS4.

In response to egorene. I'm glad that you've had luck with fire warriors but all things considered, they're really poor.They shoot essentially like space marines with bolters, BS3 + S5 is the same as BS4 + S4. They don't have good stats anywhere and you pay lots of points for them. They're decent at holding points just because they can stay relevant from afar (30in range) but if anything - and I mean anything - wants them dead, they're dead. Essentially, for a competitive environment they're over-costed and underpowered.

Being as good as marines is not a bad thing. Those S5 shots can also reliable destroy light walkers and some transports as well as fire up to 30 inches.

However, pulse carbines are absolute trash.

blackarmchair
11-08-2010, 11:16 AM
However, pulse carbines are absolute trash.

Agreed. I've heard some people tote the pinning nature of the weapons as you can combine them with markerlights lowering the leadership of units to effectively pin.

To that I say two things:

1) Good job. You've invested two squads to pin one squad and kill next to nothing.

2) Anything that REALLY matters, is fearless or in a vehicle.

JxKxR
11-08-2010, 01:03 PM
Fire warriors are the bread and butter of the Tau Empire! I love a squad of 7 or 8 that's the sweet spot, and a shus'ui with marker light. I love marker lights it's just like in the codex what ever you point them at dies! I love marker lights and giving my tanks seeker missiles.

In regards to the piranha situation I take one with fusion blaster and seeker missiles. I hide it behind terrain waiting like a cobra ready to strike! This is my defensive unit, my back up plan if you will. If a tank is coming at me or a ball predator is outflanking this is my guy. He can also pop up and contest objectives late in the game which has won me the game more than a few times.

Now to kroot, I don't like kroot, but if I ever took them it was to get the Hounds. The hounds actually have Initiative so that’s kind of cool. I run farsight with two bodyguard with burst cannons and Twin linked flamers (I can't really believe I don't see more twin linked flamers it's like 2 extra points!) for my assault squad and they do great! When ever something gets close enough to my gun line they are probable whittled down quite a bit and then these guys just mop up.

Now back on topic to the Ionhead... I have been recently contemplating the Ionhead and I got to say at least with MY play style it wouldn't be to effective, but with your play style how few fire warriors you play with, your lack of marker lights and pathfinders, I could see it as a good fit. Although you may have just not been using the Railgun right. IMHO you shouldn't use the hammerhead railgun for tank hunting only against troops. The submunition round is where it’s at. I like to keep it in the back and just pie plate the enemy. Sure it may not do maximum damage but it's distracting, it's something for the opponent to think about, and the mind games are just part of Warhammer!

Coffeemugg
11-08-2010, 02:27 PM
And this is why I dont like the Railgun. I am not paying 50 points for a ST6 ap4 Large Blast weapon. Those points do not pan out.

So to coment on some of the fire warriro talk going on. They are a terable choice. Until a new book comes out I will never play more than a 6 man squad in a devilfish.

I have been playing Tau since the day they came out and for the life of me could never understand why people like spending 10 points on a single seeker missile. I have better things to spend points on. Seeker missiles REQUIRE you to invest points in other WEAKER elements just to use them AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE 2 TO HIT ROLLS JUST TO HIT!!!! WTF (sorry for the rant)

Here are the lists I’m considering:(sorry for the abriviations but i had to for time sake)
Army 1
HQ-
Shas EL/FG/MP/MT/SD/ 94

Elite-
Battle suit teamx3/TL MP/ FL 141
Battle suit teamx3/TL MP/ FL 141
Battle suit teamx3/Team Lead/PR/FG/MT/SD 206

Troop-
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160
6 Fire warriors 60

Fast-
Piranah-x3 /FG/FD/TA 220
8 Pathfinders//Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 201

Heavy-
Ion Head/BC/FD/MT 140
Ion Head/BC/FD/MT 140
2 Broadside/ Team Lead/***/SD/hwmt 185
1848

Army 2

HQ-
Shas EL/FG/MP/MT/SD/TA/SI 114

Elite-
Battle suit teamx3/TL MP/ FL 141
Battle suit teamx3/TL MP/ FL 141
Battle suit teamx3/Team Lead/PR/FG/MT/SD 206

Troop-
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160

Fast-
Piranah-x2 /FG/FD/TA 150
Piranah-x2 /FG/FD/TA 150

Heavy-
Ion Head/BC/FD/MT 140
Ion Head/BC/FD/MT 140
2 Broadside/ Team Lead/***/SD/HWTL 185

1847


Army 3
HQ-
Shas EL/FG/MP/MT/SD/TA/SI 114

Elite-
Battle suit teamx3/TL MP/ FL 141
Battle suit teamx3/TL MP/ FL 141
Battle suit teamx3/Team Lead/PR/FG/MT/SD 206

Troop-
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160
6 Fire warriors/Devil Fish/DP/FD/MT 160

Fast-
Piranah-x3 /FG/FD/TA 220

Heavy-
Ion Head/BC/FD/MT 140
Ion Head/BC/FD/MT 140
3 Broadside/ Team Lead/***/SD/hwmt 265
1847

JxKxR
11-08-2010, 03:10 PM
You have played Tau since they came out and you don't use pathfinders??? This is why you don't like the Fire warriors! Fire warriors with out markerlights are gay but with marker lights they destroy. I love shooting at BS 5 I guess you don't. As for the seeker missiles I don't understand your rage they come in at BS 5, and it's making the other weaker elements in your army stronger that makes it a good option.

blackarmchair
11-09-2010, 02:39 AM
Protip: Any Tau unit can benefit from markerlights (not alien allies obviously).

Yes you can make fire warriors BS5. That means each fire warrior does an astounding half a wound to a MEQ....woooo scary.

I may be in the minority here, but a 200pt unit that I have to take to upgrade my 100pt unit to shoot like a 150pt unit in any codex with decent troops doesn't sound like much of an upgrade.

Now, marker lights are awesome. Don't get me wrong. They're just better employed for reducing cover saves and MAYBE upping BS4 to 5 on a unit that can actually do damage.

Commander Vimes
11-09-2010, 09:18 PM
So to coment on some of the fire warriro talk going on. They are a terable choice. Until a new book comes out I will never play more than a 6 man squad in a devilfish.

I have been playing Tau since the day they came out and for the life of me could never understand why people like spending 10 points on a single seeker missile. I have better things to spend points on. Seeker missiles REQUIRE you to invest points in other WEAKER elements just to use them AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE 2 TO HIT ROLLS JUST TO HIT!!!! WTF (sorry for the rant)


I agree that Fire Warriors are a pretty terrible choice. I play a very Kroot heavy list myself. That said, I've recently been experimenting with a single 12 man team with some success. My reasoning is that markerlighted Fire Warriors are very nasty regardless of target type (other than vehicles). Now, it isn't worth it to buy markerlights specifically for the Fire Warriors, but since my list already includes 16 pathfinders who's primary job is marking for my Broadsides, the Fire Warriors give me an option for brutal anti-infantry firepower when I need it. I am not sold on them yet though, and en mass they are definitely not competitive.

Of the lists you posted, I like the first one best.

@Blackarmchair

My mistake. The suits should be taking the upgrade to BS4.

Unfortunately the BS upgrade takes up one of three hard points, so you can't have 2 weapons, BS4 and a multi-tracker to fire both weapons. HQ's and their overpriced bodygurads can do this, as well team leaders, but it's not possible for a full squad.

Twin-Missile pods is a great configuration because of all the light transports. They also can reliably force armor saves on any unit in the game in a pinch. Adding a flamer gives them another option that doesn't depend on their BS3. It doesn't get used often, but when it does it's awesome to have.

blackarmchair
11-10-2010, 01:05 AM
@Blackarmchair
Unfortunately the BS upgrade takes up one of three hard points, so you can't have 2 weapons, BS4 and a multi-tracker to fire both weapons. HQ's and their overpriced bodygurads can do this, as well team leaders, but it's not possible for a full squad.

You're right. I'm used to seeing people field the HQ teams but you're correct. It's not exactly hard to get one marker light to hit and take them to BS4 though I guess.

I could see a single group of 12 fire warriors being ok. With BS5 and no cover saves they'll do damage but It just seems like such a sink. You pay 120pts base for the FW then a few hundred points more for the markerlights to make them useful. And it's not even guaranteed the markerlights will even hit.

That's still too much of a risk on something so unsure for my tastes.

Coffeemugg
11-10-2010, 05:32 AM
So before this thread gets hijacked any more into a firewarrior debate.

I playtested the IonHead the other night in an 1850 game and it shined!

The game was against Necrons. The Ions gave me the ability to cripple his Destroyers early in the game.

It has a really good synergy with the Deathrain battle suit, bringing ap3 into the picture.

Im pretty sure I will be using them from now on. There was no point in the game where I thought"boy a railgun would be so handy right now".

I will continue to playtest. Hopefully I cand get a game in against Mech Guard and Space Wolves.


Ok....Go ahead and keep going on your rant's about how the fire warrior can be good if you sink 900 points into them so they can shoot better, and I will just continue using my 6 guys in a Devilfish, making my army both mobile and survivable.

blackarmchair
11-10-2010, 10:45 PM
That's exactly what I'm advocating for. 6 dudes, 1 fish (sounds like a bad internet film). It's cheap, it's efficient it's good!