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Merrexz
08-24-2009, 04:59 PM
I think I'd better start off by saying "Hi, all!", seeing as this is my first post on these forums... I'll give some background for the list I'm about to present, and say how I envision using it - then I hope experienced players can give some much needed and much appreciated feedback.

Background:
I got into 40k in 2nd edition, and have been out of the hobby since halfway through 3rd edition. Recently, a friend and I suddenly got each other going about how good 5th edition is looking, and if it wouldn't be great to get back into the fold again. We're quite on fire, and intend to start purchasing within a few weeks.

The community around here is in hibernation, so we will basically be lifting ourselves up by our bootstraps - and completely without local support (that is, until things start happening for real!). This means I'm hoping you lot can please give me some feedback here before I start buying models at random! I might have made some logical errors as I own the Codex but not the rulebook yet, although I have tried to web research myself out of as many errors as possible.

Limitations:
- The force should be 1500 points, build with a standard force organization chart
- It should be as flexible / "take all comers" as possible, as I will probably have to play it exclusively for a while before I can expand it again.
- The force should be as inexpensive as possible within the set parameters (seeing as this will have to be a low-budget project to be at all feasible. Further, I am a dedicated painter and modeller, so eBay isn't usually an option!)
- The force should have a fair model count (I love me some infantry)

What I'm after:
Please offer opinions on the viability of the list, and if you're so inclined, any changes you would advise in the force within the parameters above. I'm not looking for an Uber List - just an easily aqcuired, relatively inexpensive IG force that will be fun to play until I can afford to expand upon it.

The force (1500 pts exactly):

HQ

Company Command Squad
Including Lord Castellan Ursakar Creed and Colour Sergeant Kell

Troops

First Platoon:

Platoon Command Squad

First Squad
Sgt + Power Weapon, Autocannon, Flamer or Grenade Laucher. Add commissar with power weapon

Second Squad
Autocannon, Flamer or Grenade Laucher

Third Squad
Autocannon, Flamer or Grenade Laucher

Special Weapons Squad
Add 3 meltaguns

Heavy Weapons Squad
Upgrade 3 mortars to 3 lascannon

Second Platoon:

Platoon Command Squad

First Squad
Sgt + Power Weapon, Autocannon, Flamer or Grenade Laucher. Add commissar with power weapon

Second Squad
Autocannon, Flamer or Grenade Laucher

Third Squad
Autocannon, Flamer or Grenade Laucher

Special Weapons Squad
Add 3 meltaguns

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinels
3 x Scout sentinel, 3 x smoke launchers, 3 x autocannon upgrade

Heavy Support

Leman Russ
Leman Russ Battle Tank, upgrade hull heavy bolter to lascannon

Leman Russ
Leman Russ Battle Tank, add heavy bolter sponsons, add pintle-mounted heavy stubber

Why I chose this force:
Assuming some slight kitbashing/conversion work, this force can be buildt from 3 x Cadian Battle Boxes, 2 x Leman Russ kits, 1 Creed/Kell blister and 3 melta gun bits - or around 400 dollars. For the model count, that seems pretty good to me. I always liked IG infantry and tanks, and this force has both.

Creed and Kell might not be optimal at 1500 points, but to get equal order coverage I'd have to invest in to Company Command squads and some vox casters. Plus I love the models, they'll make a splendid centrepiece.

The platoons are there for body count - autocannons seem like a safe bet for the squads. I debate whether the squads should have all grenade lauchers, all flamers, or wheter I should limit flamers to "front-line" squads. Commissars - I have always loved them, and just needed to fit them in somewhere useful.

Leman Russes - I got to have some tanks - they look gorgeous!

How I propose to use this force:

Creed and Kell will stay back and center, using their massive orders radius and high Ld to boost the efficiency of the entire infantry force.

Platoons will form my line, deploying from center towards right and left. Heavy weapons squad stay central and rear, popping tanks and monstrous creatures. Commissar squads deploy "in harm's way" - where it looks more likely assaults will come in. Most likely, one somewhere on the right, the other on the left. Two power weapons per commissar squad combined with summary execution should allow these squads to tie up an assault for a turn, and hopefully weaken it so it can be mopped up the following turn using available firepower or other available means - like a flamer in a second-line squad. The four "bread and butter" squads deploy slightly behind Commissar squads, and use guns to engage mainly transports and enemy infantry. Platoon command squads stay close to the rear squads to boost performance.

Sentinels go on outflanking (if I have understood scout rules correctly) and arrive later in the game. They'll seek out a relatively sheltered site, then use the autocannons long range and high strength to do rear/flank shots on enemy vehicles. Other than that, they will engage targets of opportunity.

The Leman Russes are intended to be my main firepower reserves and "go to" units for problem resolution. Long range large st 8 ap 3 will chew up any infantry, and pop transports if needed. One Russ is kitted to do makeshift anti-tank duties with hull lascannon, the other is more geared towards anti infantry and bristles with machine guns (total of 12 dice plus battle cannon - I hope you can fire all weapons at once if you stand still?). Each Russ will be followed by a meltagun special weapon squad sheltering behind their hulls for LoS protection - these are my kill team reserves, there to fry any deep striking heavies, monstrous creatures on the rampage in my lines or the like.

Current concerns:
1) Creed and Kell might be too much in a 1500 pt game, from what I gather in some web commentaries.
2) My infantry body count might be too low to accept casualties.
3) Commissar-boosted squads might have too low body count to blunt an assault - and combining squads to give more "meat" seems like it will reduce the flexibilty of my force and tie up too many line squads on charge-receiving duties.
4) Special Weapon Squads might have too little mobility to be where things happen - that is a concern for my entire force, and I have tried to compensate by having a symmetrical force that will be deployed tight-ish to cover its weak spots.
5) Should Leman Russes turn out to be unable to fire sponsons simultaneously with battle cannons, I will be slightly miffed.
6) I really debate the special weapon mix in the regular squads. Flamers seem like good value for money - but should they be first line (to blunt assaults) or second line (to mop up after being assaulted)? Grenade launchers just seem like a great, inexpensive way to add an extra transport popper to the squad - or even to go dreadnought plinking alongside the squad autocannon.

So there you have it. Please help me out with your opinions!

gwensdad
08-24-2009, 05:17 PM
Your situation sounds alot like my gaming group-stopped playing after 3rd came out, started back up with 5th.

Anyway, a lot of the list looks good for starts, gives up many kill points (bad) but lets you spread out to take objectives (good). In my playing of guard I've noticed putting a heavy weapon in a squad isn't great unless you want them to sit on an objective the whole game. Consider putting the Autocannons into a seperate heavy weapons squad and stick them in cover.

Not totally sure what you're doing with those Leman Russes, does each tank have a particular "mission" (i.e. infantry killer, anti-tank), if so look at getting the varient best suited for that role.

I've had weird luck with my sentinals outflanking, then showing up very close to an enemy-like 7" from the rear of an enemy tank, or right in position to charge enemy heavy weapons. With outflanking, you almost don't need anything but a multilaser.

I've considered lately getting some hellhounds (or variants), giving them multimeltas, and using them as anti-tank/anti-APC units. (just don't have the $ right now)

gwensdad
08-24-2009, 05:35 PM
Let me tackle the concerns seperately (since I forgot to on my first post) :)



Current concerns:
1) Creed and Kell might be too much in a 1500 pt game, from what I gather in some web commentaries.


Haven't played with them, so I can't say-but they are expensive (points wise)



2) My infantry body count might be too low to accept casualties.
3) Commissar-boosted squads might have too low body count to blunt an assault - and combining squads to give more "meat" seems like it will reduce the flexibilty of my force and tie up too many line squads on charge-receiving duties.


Commissars really help in this department. I've actually thought of some of my squads as "commissar and sarg deployment systems"-21 man groups designed to get 3 guys (2 sargs and a commissar or 2) into close combat and tie up an enemy unit without fleeing. Just bear in mind that S3 sucks, but masses can slow down the enemy.



5) Should Leman Russes turn out to be unable to fire sponsons simultaneously with battle cannons, I will be slightly miffed.


You can fire 1 weapon with the turrent weapon, so 1 sponson can fire with the battle cannon. This is important to the tank's role in your army.



6) I really debate the special weapon mix in the regular squads. Flamers seem like good value for money - but should they be first line (to blunt assaults) or second line (to mop up after being assaulted)? Grenade launchers just seem like a great, inexpensive way to add an extra transport popper to the squad - or even to go dreadnought plinking alongside the squad autocannon.


Flamers ignore cover, so if you consider the above idea of using your squads to deliver commissars and sargs, flamers are one of your best bets. Haven't had too much luck with grenade launchers, if you really want to pop a transport, use a melta gun.

ThePov
08-24-2009, 05:37 PM
As mentioned above, with all the new Leman Russ variants about, you might want to look at your options. The standard with Lascannon is simple enough to work at cracking medium and light armor (don't count on taking out a Land Raider though), but the one with Heavy bolters and the Heavy stubber may just as well become an Exterminator, more shooty goodness for the same points and a simple conversion (you'll have the extra Autocannons kicking around, trust me.)

For the special weapons squads, I'd consider putting a Demo charge in in place of one Melta gun in each, so you have something that doesn't require a guardsman's crappy BS to do SOMETHING and also give the squad more ability to hunt elite infantry if it comes down to it, but it's not major.

For the platoon squads, I'd question if you really need the Autocannons in all of them. If you have flamers, then the squad will be moving up, so the Autocannon will never get a chance to fire, but if you take Grenade launchers, then I can see that as an effective fire base. Plasma would be better, if you can find the points, but then you run the risk of cooking your own special weapons guy, so I'll leave that up to you. I'd say take one squad in each platoon as Flamer only and attach it to the command squad to use as advance units (using the points from the dropped autocannons to give the command squads flamers), and have one squad with Grenade launchers and AutoCannons as a fire base.

Also, as for the Sentinels, they might work, but for the same price, you could get 2 heavy weapons squads with autocannons, which would probably do more good in the long run. If you do want the sentinels (which I could understand, cuts down on what you have to buy), as above, just stick with Multi-lasers, thats all they'll really need.

Beyond that, good luck at drumming up support, and have fun! And remember, you can never have enough melta, and you can never have enough autocannons in an IG army.

Chumbalaya
08-24-2009, 09:26 PM
Good luck bring sexy, err, 40k back.


Company Command Squad
Including Lord Castellan Ursakar Creed and Colour Sergeant Kell

Creed is useful in an infantry army, but Kell is a bit of a point sink and not terribly useful if you pack voxes. These guys could also use some protection, so camo cloaks is an obvious choice. A vox network would be handy, as I will explain later. A Regimental Standard is a useful piece of kit too, I know Kell has one but he's really pricey. Your primary concern will be keeping these guys alive.


Platoon Command Squad

Don't be afraid to give these guys some weapons. Think of them as a Special Weapon squad without the fail.


First Squad
Sgt + Power Weapon, Autocannon, Flamer or Grenade Laucher. Add commissar with power weapon

Here's the big decision. With Creed, you can make an effective assault unit/tarpit out of infantry squads. 30 or so men (3 squads joined together, power weapons in all, a Commissar, and meltaguns). They can protect your gun line or outflank to keep the enemy guessing. 30 stubborn men with a good number of power weapons and melta will give pause to most assault units and vehicles, plus with "For the honor of Cadia" you can actually make them a respectable threat in combat as opposed to hilarious time waster.

Alternatively, you can forgo the choppy to give them more dakka. Grouping up 2 units with lascannons and a vox can give you a good battery of ranged firepower. While lascannons aren't the best at popping heavy armor, en masse and twin-linked they can be scary.

That's getting the most out of Creed. You can go more traditional with massed infantry sporting autocannons. It's the best gun for the points, capable of nailing light armor and tagging high S wounds on to most units.


Special Weapons Squad
Add 3 meltaguns

Terribad. Expensive, footslogging, bad at orders. You may as well just use your PCS for this role. You do need meltas to reliably knock out AV13 and up, but footsloggers are tricky to pull off. A PCS sitting behind your lines can keep heavy tanks from wanting to close, and sending a mob of infantry with meltas can keep them off your back. Don't expect to knock out many Land Raiders with lascannons.


Heavy Weapons Squad
Upgrade 3 mortars to 3 lascannon

Heavy Weapons Squads have deadly potential, but they are expensive, allergic to orders, and extremely easy to kill. Stick with autocannons here, as they're cheaper and don't need orders to function, and take a LOT. I'm talking like 6. Lots.


Scout Sentinels
3 x Scout sentinel, 3 x smoke launchers, 3 x autocannon upgrade

I like these, cheap, expendable, and a nice little surprise. They can put out a respectable amount of fire, tie units up in combat (not too long with tissue paper armor) and can line up side armor shots by scouting or outflanking. Don't expect much, that way they'll always pleasantly surprise you.


Leman Russ
Leman Russ Battle Tank, upgrade hull heavy bolter to lascannon

With lots of autocannons, you have anti-infantry and light armor well covered. A Battle Cannon doesn't add much to your army. You need to either knock out well armored units (2+ saves), ignore cover saves on entrenched enemies (or those just recently losing a transport), or help threaten heavy armor. Demolisher, Executioner, and Eradicator cover these roles. As your only vehicles they will draw fire, so expect them to pop every game. Don't bother with a hull lascannon, it's too expensive and not great at popping heavy armor. Sponsons can go too, they're either crap (heavy bolters), poorly thought out (multi-meltas, BS3 and forcing you to be static when they're so short ranged and heavy flamers, lol sponson mount) or very specific roles (plasma, only on Execs).


1) Creed and Kell might be too much in a 1500 pt game, from what I gather in some web commentaries.

Kell is overpriced, Creed is useful.


2) My infantry body count might be too low to accept casualties.

More bodies is well and good, but guns win the games.


3) Commissar-boosted squads might have too low body count to blunt an assault - and combining squads to give more "meat" seems like it will reduce the flexibilty of my force and tie up too many line squads on charge-receiving duties.

Focus your units for specific tasks and you should be ok. PW+melta+Comm = tarpit mob, AC or mobbed lascannons = line squad.


4) Special Weapon Squads might have too little mobility to be where things happen - that is a concern for my entire force, and I have tried to compensate by having a symmetrical force that will be deployed tight-ish to cover its weak spots.

Too slow, too expensive, low Ld, and PCS do the same job.


5) Should Leman Russes turn out to be unable to fire sponsons simultaneously with battle cannons, I will be slightly miffed.

Only the turret and 1 other gun if they move, everything if they sit still. Sponsons belong on Executioners, that's about it.


6) I really debate the special weapon mix in the regular squads. Flamers seem like good value for money - but should they be first line (to blunt assaults) or second line (to mop up after being assaulted)? Grenade launchers just seem like a great, inexpensive way to add an extra transport popper to the squad - or even to go dreadnought plinking alongside the squad autocannon.

Flamers are handy on back line units, so once the front line has been murdered in assault (leaving the enemy high and dry and all bunched up) you can move in and roast them (PCS work great in this role so your heavy weapons can keep firing). In line squads, grenade launchers work fine. They aren't great, but 5 points isn't much.

Hope that helps.

Merrexz
08-25-2009, 05:31 PM
First of all, thank you for the feedback. It rounds off my latest burst of reading up on the Guard quite handily.

I have given my list a serious workover, trying to specialise force choices more and add some versatility - all while giving your feedback due consideration. The most obvious changes are dropping Creed and Kell for a force focus change and reorganising the units to compensate for the altered chain of command, as well as adding two mechanized veteran squads for added mobility and versatility on the offense.

Please have a look and see if you find my changes agreeable. The limitations on the force posted in the inital thread remain, repeated here for reference:

- The force should be 1500 points, build with a standard force organization chart
- It should be as flexible / "take all comers" as possible, as I will probably have to play it exclusively for a while before I can expand it again.
- The force should be as inexpensive as possible within the set parameters (seeing as this will have to be a low-budget project to be at all feasible. Further, I am a dedicated painter and modeller, so eBay isn't usually an option!)
- The force should have a fair model count (I love me some infantry)

The list is still exactly 1500 points.

HQ

Company Command Squad
Regimental Standard
Vox Caster
2 meltaguns

Company Command Squad
Regimental Standard
Vox Caster
2 meltaguns

Location: Rear
Primary task: Command
Secondary task: Meltagun reserve for front line
Comments: Added a second company command to decrease order loss when removing Creed. This option gives me 4 BS 4 meltaguns in two units, compared to 0 meltaguns in 1 unit in the previous list. Having regimental standards at intervals behind the line should help the infantry keep it together once the going gets tough.

Troops

First Platoon

Platoon Command Squad
Vox Caster
3 Flamers

Infantry Squad
Commissar
2 Power Weapons
Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad
Power Weapon

Location: First line
Primary task: Assault soak
Secondary task: Push for objectives
Comments: Trying to squeeze CC efficiency out of this choice in the previous list became an unbelieveable points soak. I finally decided to remove Creed and settle on this basic assault soak option. The infantry squads will combine, giving a 20-man 3 power weapon stubborn unit with summary execution Ld reroll. As it is to seek glorious sacrifice in CC, I elected to skim points off it - thus, there are no special weapons. The command squad will trail slightly, giving orders and offering flamer support to flush cover or objectives. Or mop up after the assault screen gets trashed.

Second Platoon

Platoon Command Squad
Vox Caster
3 Flamers

Infantry Squad
1 Flamer
Vox Caster

Infantry Squad
1 Flamer
Vox Caster

Location: First line
Primary task: Push for objectives
Secondary task: None
Comments: The flamers should be useful in flushing terrain and objectives. As with the first platoon, the command squad will trail slightly and give orders, offering flamer support as needed to flush or mop up as the case might be.

Heavy Weapons Squad
3 autocannons

Heavy Weapons Squad
3 autocannons

Location: Second line
Primary task: Firebase
Secondary task: None
Comments: These should primarily pop transports, then engage targets of opportunity.

Veteran Squad
Equip with shotguns
Vox Caster
3 meltaguns
Chimera
Hull heavy flamer
Pintle-mounted heavy stubber

Veteran Squad
Equip with shotguns
Vox Caster
3 meltaguns
Chimera
Hull heavy flamer

Location: Reserves
Primary task: Utility unit
Secondary task: None
Comments: I don't really know if shotguns are a good choice, although I suspect that if these guys are not within 12" of the enemy they will relocate rather than stop to take lasgun pot shots. Shotguns seem like a good idea when deploying out of transports, as they are assault 2 rather than rapid fire. The weapon mix between the units and their transports mean they can handle most tasks - flush cover with heavy flamers, flank shoot light armour with multi-lasers, go for armour or armour 2+ infantry with total 6 BS 4 meltaguns, or simply plaster light infantry with shotgun slugs. Their mobility should serve me well when doing late game pushes to capture or contest objectives. Besides, the modeller and painter in me goes all fuzzy inside when I consider the possibilites of two veteran squads. The Chimeras will be two converted Void Tiger APCs that are dusting away in the basement, thus sidestepping the issue of having to spend more cash to field these squads. The heavy stubber on one of them is a purely aesthetic choice - but it's ten points I will not even consider spending on something more useful!

Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squadron
3 Scout Sentinels
3 autocannons

Location: Outflanking
Primary task: Enemy rear line harassment
Secondary task: Late-game objective contenders
Comments: Nothing new here, although I skimmed off the smoke launchers as I guess I will want these to come in guns blazing and then remain shooting until they go down. I decided to retain the autocannons due to their increased strength and range, both of which I feel are very handy for their modest points cost when attempting for flank and rear shots on enemy armour. They will outflank and wreak whatever havoc they can on targets of opportunity in the enemy's rear before being smoked.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Location: Reserves
Primary task: Utility mobile firebase
Secondary task: None
Comments: The blasts are, as noted by observers, tremendous for nearly any task and will be used as such. I feel it is vital to include two Russes for surviveability purposes, as a single one would be wrecked in no time at all. I remain undecided on wheter to deploy them in reserve, for surviveability and versatility, or on the table due to their combination of low speed and low range. I am also uncertain on whether I should get a hold of two extra hull heavy flamers - these tanks will keep rolling, and with their limited range it seems likely they might end up quite close to the opposition.

Current concerns:
1) I am debating whether to skim points enough to equip the company command squads with camo cloaks.
2) The heavy weapons teams are included as they are included in the battle boxes, and it's more cash effective to deploy them rather than buying something else. I remain concerned that two squads will prove too vulnerable, although I see few options other than including them in the squads - which will hamper their mobility.
3) Shotguns on veterans - viable, or pure folly?
4) My demolishers form my only true anti-MEQ option. I debate swapping the demolishers for regular Russes again, as these will be good anti-MEQ units with superior range - able to project power into any corner of the battlefield. Even if I choose to go that route, I still feel queasy when thinking of MEQ armies.

Again, your opinions will be most appreciated!

ThePov
08-25-2009, 05:48 PM
So far, so good, but I'm wondering if the second Company Command squad is neccesary? Since the Infantry is moving forward besides the Autocannons, it might be more effective to simply drop one and put the other in a Chimera, to go with the Veterans (who are a very good choice, BTW.) Beyond that, one thing I see from a cash/materials available perspective is that, since all your Heavy Weapons squads are packing autocannons, you may not have the Autocannon bitz to spare for the conversion neccesary (I'm pretty sure the Sentinel in the Cadian box only comes with Multi-lasrs, but I could be wrong).


If you have any points left over, consider putting some kind of sponsons on the Demolishers. Plasma Cannons would help against Plague Marines, Termies, and other such 'ard Units, and would give you a little more range.