Carnifex being charged by 17 gaunts -always surrounded?

[chapterhousestudios]

In the tourney at Bcon, Mission 6, my Ironclad was charged by 17 Hormagaunts.

Hormies were 7 inches away before assault.

I engaged thinking that they would completely surround my ironclad at least 2 models thick, there was a carnifex 10 inches away that i was worried about next turn.

In any case, the Hormagaunts did surround me on the assault move, I killed 3, he removed them from behind my dreadnought.

My question is, according to the rules, at the end of the assault, shouldnt he have moved all his hormagaunts that were not in base to base at least 6 inches to get into base to base and completely surround my dreadnought?

This would have prevented his carnifex from assaulting my dreadnought since it was completely surrounded by hormagaunts.

This was a game losing encounter for me, so I was analyzing it.

Thoughts?

Nick

[StrikerFox]

yes he should have. at that point there would have been no way for the fex to have come btb with your ironclad.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

brb pg 40, 1st column under 'Pile In'
"these models move up to 6" in an attempt to move into base contact with an enemy or, if not possible(emph mine), into a position in which they are engaged..."

So, per StrikerF, yes your dread would have been surrounded.

I have choked off my own Carnie's in the past counting on higher casualty rates (though never with a squad over 10). It's one of those few occasions where it's better to be 'unlucky' in dice for my opponent. :(

[Alien]

yeh, sorry to say but you were cheated.
I have had people try to move as little as possible, or move the back ones in first so there is no room to go around them to cover my back, as to let more of his other units charge later.
very unscrupulous if you ask me.

[Vepr]

With leaping would they have to surround the model two deep? Once surrounded with one layer deep you could stack gaunts three deep on one side. :confused:

[Vepr]

If he did not surround you completely then it was not right but if he surrounded you and then piled in deep on one side because of leaping and then removed causalities from the back side to create an opening by removing models after assault was resolved then I don't see that as cheating.

[FirstLegion]

If he did not surround you completely then it was not right but if he surrounded you and then piled in deep on one side because of leaping and then removed causalities from the back side to create an opening by removing models after assault was resolved then I don't see that as cheating.

You're right Vepr, but I think the actual issue is after the assault, the player left an open space where he should have piled in around the dread, preventing the fex from assaulting. I don't have my book with me, but I think an attempt to get into b2b is required during pile in...

[Vepr]

You're right Vepr, but I think the actual issue is after the assault, the player left an open space where he should have piled in around the dread, preventing the fex from assaulting. I don't have my book with me, but I think an attempt to get into b2b is required during pile in...

That is probably right. I don't guess leaping is considered stuck in when I think about it. I usually keep my BR mini book on me but I left it at home last night. Doh! :)

[Jwolf]

If the consolidation is done cleverly, a player can leave a space for themselves to get a large model into BtB, almost regardless of the distance the models can consolidate. Having more models left actually makes this easier, as then there will be more models further away that can block angles that closer models might take to get into BtB.

So, from a mathematical off-the-board perspective, the answer is the hormagaunts would ring the dreadnought, but on the board in an actual game, there are ways to consolidate legally and leave the space required, for at least one turn. It would become increasingly more unlikely as the combat wore on, though. By the end of the third turn of a close combat, almost no situation obtains where the dreadnought (in this example) would not be ringed, if the hormagaunts are in sufficient numbers.

[miksaa]

I think the error could also be the person was playing according to the wrong edition.

In fourth edition, you did not pile-in if you were not engaged in assault, i.e. not being with in 2" of another model in base contact or in base-to-base contact.

Now they changed it to”If you are not in base-to-base contact”. He may have done the wrong thing, but it may have been unintentional. However, I agree with J.Wolf, it could also be because of sneaky and very well planed movement.

[Jwolf]

After discussions with a couple locals that got games with Mike, I'm convinced that he probably was doing some tricky maneuvering to legally get the best position for his models, as he did a lot of that in the two games in question. Again, no way to be certain, as no judge was called over and asked to look at the situation, but I think we're best off assuming that the rules were followed exactly.

[chapterhousestudios]

Well I did call a judge over, but it was in the end of the assault phase, and my question was "after assault has been done and wounds alocated, can the gaunts have to move 12 inches like thiere assault move or 6 inches."

My bad was not watching the initial movement after my Dreadnought engaged the first hormagaunt. I think they were quite a few gaunts that did not move the full 6 inches in, so that on the back end, they were only 1 gaunt thick in the assault move, on the front end they were at least 4 thick.

That being said, at the end of assault wound alocation, the ones piled up in front and to the sides 2 thick should have moved laterally to get in base to base, so the carni would never had been able to get in base to base.

I hold no ill will to anyone, but that rule does need to be noticed for future instances (especially by myself!).

Nick

[Jwolf]

That is certainly the best path to take. You're not sure that you got a raw deal, (and your opponent got nearly perfect sports scores, so we can assume he was a good guy - you gave him a great game) but now you're more aware of that issue and can be looking for it later.
I've had many issues where really good players who I'm sure aren't trying to cheat have a rule wrong in their head and we have to fix it. Heck, I've even been the one. :)

[crazyredpraetorian]

Yep......Corbulo is NOT Fearless.:D

[chapterhousestudios]

LOL Corbulo..

Ill see you all next year, unless you decide to host it here in Dallas :P