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miksaa
08-25-2009, 03:38 PM
Is it possible for one model to engage two units at the same time?

For example: If I shoot at a transport, inflicting no damage. Could I assault the transport with my single model and in the same time assault the unit coming out of it?

Could I at least assault the transport even do I also end up with in 2” of a unit I am not assaulting?

Nabterayl
08-25-2009, 03:46 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question you're asking. It is certainly possible for a single model to be engaged with two units at the same time - the model must either be in base-to-base contact with models from two separate enemy units, or in base-to-base contact with no enemy models but within 2" of friendly models within his unit that are themselves in base-to-base contact with models from two separate enemy units.

In the case of your lone model, it sounds like you imagine that the enemy has already disembarked from their transport when you take your shot. In that case it is theoretically possible for you to assault both the transport and another unit, so long as the enemy squad is close enough to the transport that the lone model can get into base-to-base contact with the transport (which is the official target of your assault, because you shot it) and be in base-to-base contact with the enemy squad.

Jwolf
08-25-2009, 03:52 PM
Is it possible for one model to engage two units at the same time?

For example: If I shoot at a transport, inflicting no damage. Could I assault the transport with my single model and in the same time assault the unit coming out of it?

Could I at least assault the transport even do I also end up with in 2” of a unit I am not assaulting?

You can ignore the 1" rule when assaulting.

Culven
08-25-2009, 04:06 PM
Assaulting two units with a single model is theoretically possible, but near impossible in practice. The problem is that the assault rules require the model to charge via the shortest route, which means no maneuvering to make it into BtB with the second unit if it adds to the distance moved.

However, most players don't play this rule this strictly any will allow a single model to assault multiple enemy units if they are close enough and it doesn't require a huge amount of additional movement to do so.

SeattleDV8
08-25-2009, 04:13 PM
Is it possible for one model to engage two units at the same time?


Yes it is possible, but it is not possible for a single model to assault two units.
The nearest model to the unit being charged must move into BtB contact without touching the base of another units models.
If you have more than one model in the assaulting unit you can use them to assault other units.

Nabterayl
08-25-2009, 04:31 PM
The problem is that the assault rules require the model to charge via the shortest route, which means no maneuvering to make it into BtB with the second unit if it adds to the distance moved.

I don't see that rule on page 34. Can you point me to your cite?

Culven
08-25-2009, 04:55 PM
Middle of the second paragraph under "Moving Assaulting Models": "Start each assault by moving a single model . . . must be the one closest to the enemy . . . using the shortest possible route." This means that for a single model unit, it must be moved into BtB with the closest enemy model, using the shortest route possible. Theoretically, this could allow it to contact another enemy unit at the same moment that it makes contact with the target of the assault, but it is highly unlikely due to the precision of the placement of the two enemy models that would be necessary to make it possible.

miksaa
08-25-2009, 10:50 PM
In this case, it was possible, as the shortest route was in to the gap between two models from the enemy unit.

From the beginning, the Valkyri dropped its unit in front of it each model standing side to side in front of it between it and my master. Another unit killed one of the transported models leaving a gap between two models as wide as it own base.

Then I shoot my combi melta shoot from 5" away certain of killing right out.
However, it was a double one (one of many in this game).

So my hope laid in him charging and knocking it down, as it had been standing still the last turn the odds was OK.

They claimed I could not as I cannot come with in 1" from another unit. I responded by saying that I assault them both, even better for me as the unit had a heavy-flamer that I did not want to have roaming around in my back lines. They now claimed that; one model could only assault one unit.

Is this correct? Alternatively, could I assault multiple units?

___

SeattleDV8

The nearest model to the unit being charged must move into BtB contact without touching the base of another units models.

Not saying you are not right, but could you point to a part in the rule that states this.
Would you alow it if I assaulted both?

Culven
08-26-2009, 08:11 AM
If the infantry had been placed in base contact with the Valkyrie and in BtB with each other, then I would think that you could indeed engage both units since the gap left by the casualty would mean that everything is placed in such a way that the Master would reach BtB with both units at the same time. This is probably the only situation where the postision of the models would be known accurately enough for this to work.

The "must stay 1 inch away" rule was in fourth edition. It was not included in fifth, most likely to preven "unassaultable" formations.

I cannot find anything that states the first model to move may not be placed in BtB with more than one unit. The only thing that would disallow doing so would be the "shortest route" clause, but this is irrelevent when the Master was moving into the gap, since the shortest route led him to be in the position formerly occupied by a model that was BtB with the target of the charge and his squadmates.

SeattleDV8
08-26-2009, 05:25 PM
BRB pg. 34 "As usual the closeest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units...."
The first model has to assault the squad declared only after that are you allowed to assault other units.
The first model is disallowed from coming into BtB contact with units it has not declared an assault against.
It seems to be a timing issue to me.

Nabterayl
08-26-2009, 06:32 PM
Yeah, but by the same token, "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models."

If getting into base-to-base contact with your target by the shortest possible route also happens to end you in base-to-base contact with another enemy unit, I see no reason why you can't assault both (indeed, you must).

mkerr
08-26-2009, 06:36 PM
They claimed I could not as I cannot come with in 1" from another unit. I responded by saying that I assault them both, even better for me as the unit had a heavy-flamer that I did not want to have roaming around in my back lines. They now claimed that; one model could only assault one unit.

They were incorrect. If there was a gap allowing you to reach the Valkyrie (and it was in range of your assault), then you could assault it.

-- mkerr

miksaa
08-26-2009, 10:35 PM
They were incorrect. If there was a gap allowing you to reach the Valkyrie (and it was in range of your assault), then you could assault it.

-- mkerr

Even if it put me in base-to-base with another unit?

SeattleDV8
08-27-2009, 02:12 AM
I still have a problem with the first model.
It has to declare the unit which it is assaulting.
It is unable to come within BtB with units it has not declared an assault against.
Nothing in the rule allow you to declare assaults against multiple units.
You may assault multiple units if you have more than one model in the assaulting unit.

Vince
08-27-2009, 03:59 AM
After reading page 34 where it says "It is unable to come within BtB with units it has not declared an assault against." I have to concur with SeattleDV8 that with one model you can not assault 2 units.

Culven
08-27-2009, 08:26 AM
BRB pg. 34 "As usual the closeest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units...."
The first model has to assault the squad declared only after that are you allowed to assault other units.
The first model is disallowed from coming into BtB contact with units it has not declared an assault against.
So, what if the conditions for assaulting are met and the makes it into BtB with the target of the assault and at the same time makes it into BtB with another unit? It has met the requirements, there is nothing to say that it cannot make BtB at the same time, and there is nothing that says what one should do if meeting the rule conditions required it to be in BtB with another unit. Should we disallow the assault, permit it and ignore the fact that the model is BtB with the other unit, or move the models in the other unit away so that they are not in BtB? This is the question I am unsure of if the gharging model isn't permitted to be in BtB with the secondary unit.

SeattleDV8
08-28-2009, 02:05 AM
I agree.
Given an actual game i believe you and I would both give the dual attack to our 'enemies' ,and not take the extra attack ourselves.
I think that RAW is that a single model cannot assault multiple units, you need at least two models to pull it off.
GAP if it was even close I would allow it.