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cco
11-26-2010, 08:24 PM
This is a VERY long post with a lot of explanation of strategy, if you just want to see my list first and skip all the other stuff, skip to the bottom where it says JUST THE ARMY LIST.

So after deciding to get back into 40k after a year long absence, I decided to try Chaos Space Marines (should be picking some up for the holidays) I made a list and talked with some of the Chaos Marine players in the store. The list was based off of Lash of Submission and a large amount of blast templates, and they chastised me for using such a "single-minded" tactic. After some searching I've discovered that well, people don't like Lash of Submission. So I've been trying to figure out a way to make a competitively viable Lash of Submission list which doesn't centralize itself around Template Spam.

Anyways, on to the list itself.

First I need a Lash user.
Sorcerer of Slaanesh: Lash of Submission 125 points

Next up I need something which somehow benefits from Lash- I'm liking an assault unit which can charge units which are Lashed out of position. Raptors and a Chaos Lord are nice because they can counter-assault enemy units encroaching on the Sorcerer, or use their massive assault range to hit small enemy units.

Chaos Lord of Khorne: Pair of Lightning Claws, Jump Pack. 150 Points.

10 Raptors: 2 Meltaguns Aspiring Champion armed with Power Fist 250 Points
10 Raptors gives me 25 regular attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks on the charge. Meltaguns get rid of nasty things like tanks and terminators, two things which are likely to be getting close to the Sorcerer.

Speaking of the Sorcerer, it's about time he got a body guard of his own, don't you think? I decided that a nice, resilient unit of Thousand Sons was the way to go, not to mention that I can use Lash to pull enemy units into rapid fire range. A Land Raider gives me some utility shots, and rips apart mech armies, leaving the nice little infantry units inside the enemy vehicles ripe for the Sons.

10 Thousand Sons and an Aspiring Sorceror: Warptime 292 points
Land Raider: Demonic Possesion 240 Points

I still need more Troops, so I decide to fill out with some nice Chaos Space Marines.

3x10 Chaos Space Marines mounted in Rhinos: 1 Flamer, 1 Meltagun Aspiring Champion with Power Fist. Extra Armor on Rhinos 765 Points.
I now have 3 Objective Grabbing units (Thousand Sons will probably eat a lot of fire and I don't want to waste them on objectives. In Capture and Control I leave one at home and use the 3rd Rhino for Tank Shocking and the like. The Flamer is for Horde armies, which I don't have a real counter to.

Okay, I admit, the ability to cluster enemy units is too good to pass up. But to keep from running Obliderators I'm going to use something similar: Havocs.
5 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers: 155 Points

I've been considering a unit of 2 Obliderators here, but it feels like I would be ruining what this list is about.

Total Points: A clean 2,000

The Basic Strategy is to eliminate enemy transports so that the Havocs and Thousand Sons can clean up enemy units. Strategy varies depending on which army I'm facing.

JUST THE ARMY LIST
Sorcerer of Slaanesh: Lash of Submission 125 points

Chaos Lord of Khorne: Pair of Lightning Claws, Jump Pack. 150 Points

10 Thousand Sons and an Aspiring Sorceror: Warptime 292 points

3x10 Chaos Space Marines mounted in Rhinos: 1 Flamer, 1 Meltagun Aspiring Champion with Power Fist. Extra Armor on Rhinos 765 Points.

10 Raptors: 2 Meltaguns Aspiring Champion armed with Power Fist 250 Points

5 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers: 155 Points

Land Raider: Demonic Possesion 240 Points

I'm open to suggestion on all fronts, seeing as this is my first list in a long while. Just remember that the idea of this list is to use the Lash of Submission without just running Template spam, which my local gaming group HATES.

Thanks for reading!

blackarmchair
11-27-2010, 06:38 AM
Wooo-whee where to begin?

Well, for starters welcome back to 40k. Always happy to add new members to the hobby.

Good news, you have a very good idea for a list.

Bad(ish) news, I think it needs some tweaking. First and foremost, you NEED 2 lash sorcerers. If your list is to revolve around such a mechanic you need some redundancy. If you want my opinion (and if you're reading this I am going to assume you do :] ) the best way to run lash sorcerers is on a bike. You can play hopscotch with squads and artificially extend the range of lash. It makes you T5, much a like a DP gives you EXCELLENT mobility and allows you to switch which squad you hide in each turn. It makes the sorcerers hard to catch and unpredictable.

Second, drop the Raptors. Raptors are...bad...just really bad. They're overcosted and underpowered. GW seems to think anything fast should be expensive regardless of how good it is when it actually gets where it's going. In this same vein, drop the Thosand Sons, they're survivable but AP3 bolters really mean nothing in 5th ed where almost every squad has a transport.

Your CSM squads look good, keep them if you like them.

You don't need a land raider. Nothing in this list is hammer-y enough to warrant transportation, if you were rocking Abaddon and slaanesh termies I could see it, but otherwise...nah.

As per your havocs, your initial assumption was correct. You want oblits.

Ok, all that being said. My roommate and I concocted a lash list a few weeks ago that actually won him a local tourney so I'll share with you how it worked and maybe you can steal some ideas.

Firstly, take those sorcerers on bikes, two of em. I've seen people advocate for daemon princes, I'm telling you right now the sorcerers are more survivable.

Consider taking outflanking chosen with 5x meltas and a rhino. Destroys ANY tank :)

For troops, you want mostly berzerkers. There is nothing worse to get lashed into in this codex than berzerkers. Seriously, those guys are stupid good at what they do.

For heavies you want 6-9 obliterators. Seriously, these guys do SO much damage. Lash people into a pile and shoot 3 plasma cannons per squad. Squadwipes everytime. The added advantage of obliterators is their ability to handle armour, as previously said mech is king and lash requires that you de-mech your opponent Obliterators are a great way to do this.
Consider also taking a defiler with battle cannon and 4x ccws with fleet + lash he's speedy and adds another template.

The list is mean. Obliterators hit hard and no one wants to get into cc with Berzerkers (even new space wolves and blood angels can't really handle it). Toss in a hammer unit like some khorne or slaanesh terminators and you're golden.

List looks something like this: (you can drop the chosen in favor of a hammer cc unit if you like)

+ Chaos Sorcerer [155]
- Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Space Marine Bike

+ Chaos Sorcerer [155]
- Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Space Marine Bike

+ Chosen Chaos Space Marines [185]
- 5x Chosen; 5x Meltaguns
- Rhino

+ Chosen Chaos Space Marines [175]
- 5x Chosen; 4x Meltaguns
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Obliterators [225]
- 3x Obliterators

+ Obliterators [225]
- 3x Obliterators

+ Defiler [150]
- Battle Cannon, 4x Dreadnought CCW

Total: 1999

Feighan-Raask
11-28-2010, 11:00 AM
I'm going to agree with what blackarmchair has said...you do need two sorcerers to make this style of play work and they work best on bikes. Take Obilterators as well as these fill the role of blast weapons with the plasma cannons to take advantage of the lash's but given they are walking gun platforms they fill many other roles such as anti-tank for when you come against mech armies. swapping the landraider and havoc squads nicely lets you have 5 obliterators. Or 3 Obliterators and 1 Defiler.

As for the thousand sons...I'd keep them but see about giving them a rhino as this will make them a lot more effective early on (give the rhino a combi melta to pop a transport). Yeah they can't take out terminators but thats what obilterators are for. If you wanted them more as a holding the line role I'd take either two more units of chaos marines (which lets face it at 294 points you can nearly afford) or plague marines.

Instead of the raptors look at getting 3 man terminator units with combi-melta's/Reaper autocannons. Deepstriking these guys in will probably be more effective. Juggling the points around a bit will possibly let you get a 6th obliterator in.

Hope some of this helps

cco
11-30-2010, 08:09 PM
I've been reworking the list, don't have time to post it now, but is there a way that I could keep the sons? The idea was to lash stuff into the delightful range of Rapid Fire. 20 BS4 shots that rip apart almost all Infantry seems pretty nice to me.

blackarmchair
11-30-2010, 09:15 PM
Thousand Sons are really bad. For almost 300pts there are FAR better ways to pack in >AP3. Especially considering that they currently have no transport.

Let's put it this way. Assume you are able to lash a squad into 12" range (rapid-fire/assault) a squad of 10 Thousand Sons double tapping would kill about 6 marines.

On the other hand, a squad of Khorne Berzerkers with a PF champ would kill between 3-4 on his own. He costs about 65pts. 65pts vs 300pts. You do the math. Thousand Sons are fun and fluffy, and if you like them feel free to take them. But if you're trying to be competitive they're awful.

Connjurus
12-01-2010, 01:34 AM
From what I can see with this list, you can accomplish something similar - and a bit more dramatic, in my opinion - with vindicators. Possessed Vindicators are 150 points a piece - 75 points cheaper than a 3-man obliterator squad - AND they instant-death T:5. Consider taking 2 Vindicators and a 3-man Squad of Obliterators to mix things up a bit. Plus, you end up saving 150 points that you can blow on other things - and while Blackarmchair is right in SOME ways about Sorcerors being more survivable - they can take advantage of cover much easier - Winged Lash Princes bring the pain in Close-combat, which synergizes perfectly with massed Berzerkers. Besides, it's pretty easy to give Daemon Princes cover saves by screening them with those berzerkers.

As far as dropping the Chosen for a Hammer-Unit...I wouldn't recommend it. This list isn't about this, and unless you're bringing Abaddon, your Hammer probably won't be as big as your opponent's.

Power Fists with Berzerkers are okay, I suppose. I personally prefer to take advantage of their Furious Charge with a Power Weapon, but to each his or her own. ;)

Consider mixing up the firepower on the Chosen, or making one unit have Flamers instead. Also, don't forget about infiltrating a Squad of Chosen with an Aspiring Champion - in my opinion, EVERY Chaos Space Marine list needs a Greater Daemon, and what better way of making sure they get where you want them than infiltrating the choice squad of delivery into a tasty bit of terrain near your opponent's deployment zone? ;)

blackarmchair
12-01-2010, 10:22 AM
What he said.

Although I don't think I would drop any obliterators for a vindi. Although a vindicator is cheaper and has a nice blast it is much easier to silence than Obliterators. A single lascannon can take out a vehicle whereas Obliterators can easily benefit from cover, have an invuln, a 2+ save and 2 wounds. Plus they can put out lascannon shots the first turn or two while you're waiting for lash to be in range.

Oblits rock.

Connjurus
12-01-2010, 09:45 PM
What he said.

Although I don't think I would drop any obliterators for a vindi. Although a vindicator is cheaper and has a nice blast it is much easier to silence than Obliterators. A single lascannon can take out a vehicle whereas Obliterators can easily benefit from cover, have an invuln, a 2+ save and 2 wounds. Plus they can put out lascannon shots the first turn or two while you're waiting for lash to be in range.

Oblits rock.

My Obliterator Lascannons NEVER do anything. ANYTHING. Thew few that hit never do anything. I know the Mathhammer say they should be popping light vehicles and monstrous creatures with no problem, I think the most I've ever done with them in a turn was pop a Vendetta.

blackarmchair
12-01-2010, 10:03 PM
Well of course personal taste/luck factors in.

Still killing a Vendetta is full of win and is an event worth smiling over. That thing is ridiculously undercosted, silencing it is a good thing.

Connjurus
12-02-2010, 03:44 AM
Oh, it definitely made me smile. It exploded and killed like half the Vets beneath it. Just pictured it landing on them.

I just seem to have better luck with Vindis, though...I park them behind Abaddon's juicy Land Raider until the time is right.

blackarmchair
12-02-2010, 10:48 AM
Well in that style of list I can certainly see Vindicators coming into their own.

Vindicators are a lot like dreadnoughts: they're very circumstantial insofar that any damage they sustain cripples them. When you start taking specialized versions of them (possessed vindis or ironclad/furioso dreadnoughts) they can really begin working well.

If they're hidden by a Land Raider and you take multiples for redundancy I can certainly see Vindicators working well.

usa_supersonic
01-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Wooo-whee where to begin?




+ Chaos Sorcerer [155]
- Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Space Marine Bike

+ Chaos Sorcerer [155]
- Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Space Marine Bike

+ Chosen Chaos Space Marines [185]
- 5x Chosen; 5x Meltaguns
- Rhino

+ Chosen Chaos Space Marines [175]
- 5x Chosen; 4x Meltaguns
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Obliterators [225]
- 3x Obliterators

+ Obliterators [225]
- 3x Obliterators

+ Defiler [150]
- Battle Cannon, 4x Dreadnought CCW

Total: 1999

List is pretty solid but I would change the Sorcerer with a DP-wings-lash-it's exactly T5,can't be instant kill,can attack in combat

Daemonette666
01-04-2011, 09:56 AM
If you want to get away from template span, then replace the havoc's Missile launchers with autocannons. That way you do not have the smalll blast frag templates.

passing up on Obliterators, ooooh I do not like that.

I have gamers in my area who hate anything and everything about everyone elses armies that can beat them. Most armies have a counter to Lash based / template armies. Guard take tanks, and mechanised infantry. problem solved for them. Tyranids, use their synapse range to for a 3 D6 roll, and make you fail you psychic tests. They then rush up lots of extra troops to kill you off in CC Eldar, use their nasty 3D6 psychic rule, and have mechanised troop units, and tanks to back them up. Tau, tanks, and APC mounted troops. (lots of special tricks to move battle suits back in the assualt phase out of range).

They all have some tricks they can use, so you may as well use your own, and also back your army up by not relying on the lash template tactic fully.

I have used the following army, which i modify by droping a unit and adding another her and there depending upon my opponent's army. It has worked well for me with 4 wins and 2 draws, though I only faced Eldar once with it (a draw).

Daemon Prince wings and lash -155

Kharn the Betrayer - 165
9 Berserkeers - champ (power weapon + melta bombs) - 224
landraider - possessed + havoc launcher - 255

10 noise marines - all sonic blasters, champ -aslo has doom siren + power weapon + Melta Bombs - 300 each
rhino TPT + havoc launcher - 50

2 units of CSM - icon of chaos glory, lascannon , Melta Gun, champion - power weapon + Melta Bombs - 225 each
rhino TPT + havoc launcher - 50 each

Defiler 2 CCW - 150

2 Obliterators - 150

I use the defiler for artillery, and horde destruction. The Obliterators acan be positioned at the rear incover, or deep striked using the 3 icons in the army , and so they can drop behind vehicles, and multi-melta them.

The CSM and Noise marines, drive up and claim abjectives, and shoot special weapons from the top hatch.

You could replace the daemon prince for the sorceror, dropping 1 noise marine, and add the sorceror to the NM unit, so he can lash from the cover of the rhino. The extra points, can be used elsewhere. Possibly drop 2 havoc launchers, giving you 75 poiints to get another obliterator.

Kharn and the berserkers in the landraider, are shock troops.

If you keep the daemon prince jump use cover, drag the unit into range of the noise marines doom siren, and destroy the rest of the squad in CC.

I believe it is an all round list that uses some of the best available in the 4th edition Chaos Space Marine Codex. Thus allowing them to hold their own against 5th edition armies.


I know you do not want the template thig, but you need it in 5th edition. IG, Orks, Blood Angels, and many more will be able to beat your

Ulf
01-04-2011, 10:06 AM
Thousand Sons are really bad. For almost 300pts there are FAR better ways to pack in >AP3. Especially considering that they currently have no transport.

Let's put it this way. Assume you are able to lash a squad into 12" range (rapid-fire/assault) a squad of 10 Thousand Sons double tapping would kill about 6 marines.

On the other hand, a squad of Khorne Berzerkers with a PF champ would kill between 3-4 on his own. He costs about 65pts. 65pts vs 300pts. You do the math. Thousand Sons are fun and fluffy, and if you like them feel free to take them. But if you're trying to be competitive they're awful.

I can't comply with your conclusion here. Just to make another example, ever tried rushing your Khorne Berzerkers into a squad of Thousand Sons? They won't even get there. TS have slow&purposeful (-> relentless), which is a huge benefit when using rapid fire weapons. With transports popped (which is easy if it's a rhino) you get more than just one turn of shooting. Even if some zerkers including their champion with power fist somehow survive long enough to get close, the TS can move in, rapid fire, and charge them afterwards. The TS sorceror has a WS4 S4 force weapon with 4 attacks on the charge, a nice little something which is often overlooked. The skull champion on the other hand with his power fist can't do all that much because of 4+ invul saves everywhere.. you get the idea. I'm not saying TS are the better assault unit, but they are quite durable and the sorceror can do some damage - which is fine for a unit that's supposed to be shooting.

In my experience, TS are one of the best units available to chaos players, as long as you don't overuse them (a TS only army would hardly be viable) and remember their strengths and weaknesses. Use them to kill MEQ and tyranid monstrous creatures. Keep in mind your sorceror has a force weapon, which might provide a nice surprise to any multiple wound character / unit with toughness below 8. Keep them out of the way of high volume of fire or close combat attacks, plus they can't do much against vehicles, even if you give the sorceror melta bombs. Use them carefully, and they will perform great - which is of course true for every unit in the game, but TS are among the more specialized units, so their performance varies more.