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View Full Version : [1,500, Dark Eldar, Very Competitive] Revised



Bleakz87
12-02-2010, 12:33 AM
Dark Eldar 1,500 points

Haemonculus: Hexrifle, Venom Blade
10 Kabalite Warriors: Splinter Cannon = 170

10 Wracks: 2 Liquefier's, Acothyst
Raider: Dark Lance = 190

10 Wracks: 2 Liquefier's, Acothyst
Raider: Dark Lance = 190

10 Wracks: 2 Liquefier's, Acothyst
Raider: Dark Lance = 190

10 Wyches: 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Hekatrix: Agonizer
Raider: Dark Lance = 220

10 Wyches: 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Hekatrix: Agonizer
Raider: Grisly Trophy, Dark Lance = 225

Ravager: 3 Dark Lances = 105

Ravager: 3 Dark Lances = 105

Ravager: 3 Dark Lances = 105

*1500*

14 Dark Lances
6 scoring units
61 Models
8 Vehicles
6 Liquefier's
6 Agonizer attacks/ 8 On the Charge
4 Shardnet's

I didn't put special weapons in MY wracks squads because with the way Duel Special weapons rules are on the Rule Book they lose the extra attack. Plus I kind of like keeping my units nice and cheep so there is no obvious target. I did However keep the Acothyst's in the list because I feel the extra leadership and attack is worth the 10 points. They all Have 2 liquefier's a piece anyway and will be most likely sitting on objectives hopefully in cover.

The Wych Squads are there to tie up the Monster/Death star Units which will hopefully be weaker by the time they assault due to dark Lances and my Haemonculus Kabalite warriors squad. Also the duel Shardnet's I feel like I will be able to hold my own and with all those attacks going first (albeit Strength 2) Plus my Agonizer attacks I think I should win. They will also be used to assault anything in cover.

I have 14 Dark Lances in a 1,500 points list I feel this Hopefully will be enough to destroy whatever vehicles my opponent deploys and then use my spare shots for monstrous creatures and Bad *** units.

I also have 61 Models which I feel is really good for a 1,500 point DE Eldar list. Especially as mechanized as it is.

I Didn't take any Vehicle upgrades because I felt if I put flicker fields or night shields on all my vehicles that’s about 80 points. I feel their such paper airplanes anyway and I may move especially my Wracks at top speeds So I should get the 4+. I will Hug terrain like my mom. I don’t feel those upgrades will be worth the 80 or so points They cost.

The Grisly trophy is there because I had the extra points laying around. Couldn't think of a better place to put the 5 points.

All Help is greatly appreciated.

BuFFo
12-02-2010, 01:19 AM
I don't understand what 'Very Competitive' means for your army description.

Other than that, your list looks like a very fun list to me.

blackarmchair
12-02-2010, 01:22 AM
I just don't see it.

I have seen SOME competative DE builds but this one still makes no sense to me. How can you expect Wracks to last more than a few turns. Yes they have liquifier guns and YES those CAN kill MEQs but it's so hard to use them. You can roll bad on your AP roll and then MEQs will just crush you in CC anyway. Even provided you do toast a squad they're now really vulnerable to counter attack a 4+ feel no pain is not that great and it means literally nothing when heavy and special weapons are brought to bear.

How do you plan to de-mech people? 14 Dark Lances are not all they're cracked up to be. Don't get me wrong, it's not insignificant but let me show you a little math.

Say you shoot that lance at a tank. Say a chimera (a very common tank) you will hit (2/3) pen (1/3). That means that you have a 2/9 chance to pen per gun; which leaves you with 4 or so pens per turn. Now remember to keep this up you need to keep your AV10/11 open-topped skimmers alive.

To further compound this, let's say your opponent has employed smoke launchers. Your odds now look like this:
(2/3) to hit
(1/3) to pen
(1/2) Smokes

This means that one in every nine lances will pen (or an 11% chance). You need 10 lances to reliably kill any one tank. You just can't pack in enough lances in this new book to go that route.

Past that, you have literally no anti-tank. If you played me, I'd deploy in a clump and trade shots and I'd win. Not because I am any better than you, simply because I can pack in something on the order of 15-20 rockets per turn along with 5-7 lascannons and I'm shooting against AV10.

I really think DE need to be built in a different way. Haven't figured out how yet....

DrLove42
12-02-2010, 07:35 AM
Say you shoot that lance at a tank. Say a chimera (a very common tank) you will hit (2/3) pen (1/3). That means that you have a 2/9 chance to pen per gun; which leaves you with 4 or so pens per turn. Now remember to keep this up you need to keep your AV10/11 open-topped skimmers alive.


Name another army that can get 4 pens (or more cos mathhammer ain't perfect) at a range of 36", 48 with night shields against a leman russ wall? or land raiders, vindics or otherwise? Yes against chimera they're less good, but still better than a lot of others!

As for your list, like i said in your previous post raider and ravagers need protection. Drop a wracks squad, replace it with a warrior squad with long range (canon and lance) to sit on the home objective and use the points to buy Flickers for the ravagers and raiders.

blackarmchair
12-02-2010, 11:00 AM
Honestly, any top tier competitive army can do heavy weapon spam better.

Razorwolves can pack in 21 rockets and 7+ lascannons (most of them twin-linked) in similar points values.

Blood Angels can do it even better with fast Auto/las preds, *** cannon baals and fast las/plas razorbacks.

IG does it best as we all know, that whole book is ridiculously undercosted.

If you want some math, the rocket is going to fare statistically as well as a dark lance against AV12 or worse and is going to do so for less than half the cost. For higher AV melta and lascannons are going to fill in very well.

The obvious counter-argument is the one you presented: a wall of russ/battlewagons/etc. The fact of the matter is you generally won't run into that much AV14, and even if you do dark lance spam does not perform much better than melta/las spam and dark lances cost far more compared to cheap melta.

They also tend to be mounted on AV10/11 open-topped vehicles.

Nightshields don't mean much. If you're trying to outrange a multi-laser and you are exceedingly good at guessing range they can do something. But most heavy weapons are 48" and your lances are 36" so if you can shoot them, they can shoot you.

When your whole army is predicated around de-meching people in order to use liquifier guns dark lances really come up short. Against a rhino/razorback/chimera wall you simply cannot pack in enough lances to break more than 1 (maybe 2) reliably.

DE are a highly synergistic army. Playing them in this Marine/IG style is pointless. Just play IG/wolves.

BlindGunn
12-02-2010, 01:21 PM
While I've never gotten (or wanted) 21 Rocker Launchers in my Wolves army, the potential for high numbers of heavy weapons are true. ;)

I also agree that if you're counting on dark lances on Raiders and Ravagers being the only way of taking out vehicles, you may get into trouble very quickly. Both die quickly under massed fire and your opponent will probably prioritize the Ravagers as targets 1st as they're more likely to do anything. I'm averaging 3-5 DLance hits to take out a vehicle right now. Unless you're adding Flickerfields and Night Shields to everything, most vehicles will be shot down turn 2. With fields - you may get to turn 3. Anything extra is gravy. Key point: Don't count on your vehicles to last too long.

(I do usually plan to use my down'ed vehicles as cover for my army!) :cool:

I also like to take Haywire Grenades with my Wyches now. I can't count how many times they got ground down by a dreadnought because they didn't have grenades. With Haywire, they have a chance to Glance a dreadnought to death - or even destroy it on a lucky hit. Also, if your Wyches are stuck in the open without an opponent to charge into - you may as well use them for blowing up or damaging a vehcle before they get blown to bits in your opponent's firing phase.

The Catch-22 is finding points, of course... :D

DrBored
12-02-2010, 01:36 PM
Unless you're adding Flickerfields and Night Shields to everything, most vehicles will be shot down turn 2. With fields - you may get to turn 3. Anything extra is gravy. Key point: Don't count on your vehicles to last too long.


I'd like to see the army and math that, at 1500 points, will be able to take down most out of 8 vehicles (most would equal 5) reliably within 2 turns, keeping in mind that the Dark Eldar player would probably start the game on turn 1 and have a turbo-boosting cover save, or if they did on turn 2, would be mostly in cover to start.

There are ways to make Raiders and Ravagers last plenty long. With their ability to go 24" and gain a 4+ cover save, they can redeploy and ignore plenty of those missile/las shots coming their way. In fact, an empty or weapon-destroyed Raider can act as mobile cover, turbo-boosting across the table and obscuring another Raider from enemy fire, giving both vehicles a cover save. That's a lot more than Rhinos or Chimeras can boast.

What you need in your army to make it closer to competitive are a couple of Venoms with Trueborn with Blasters. 4 Blasters is going to be more than enough to down things, and the Venom's anti-infantry weapons can start whittling away at whatever's inside. If you're still having trouble popping things, Scourges are what Devestators wish they could be. They can rapidly redeploy13-18" and have enough ablative wounds to be able to weather plenty of enemy fire, not to mention 4 Dark Lances can be in a squad at a discount price compared to other models in the army.

Don't listen to people saying Dark Lances are overcosted or ineffective. Most Lascannons are 25+ points and aren't Lance. Most Melta Guns are cheaper, sure, but to use them against Dark Eldar you have to be within assault range, which means one turn of shooting before they're eaten up. Missile Launchers can be effective to a good degree, but they have a hefty price too, particularly being heavy weapons that you can't put on the prow of a vehicle.

The thing you're missing in your army is speed. Wracks aren't fast. If you want to tie up those Long Fangs you'll need Wyches and Hellions. If you want to take out those Razorbacks, you're going to need Trueborn, Scourges, and of course Ravagers. If you want to eat up those Terminators, take Bloodbrides, or just overwhelm them with wounds from Warriors.

Wracks do have a slightly higher toughness, two poison close combat weapons, and start the game with a Pain Token, but they're not the end-all be-all of troop choices for Dark Eldar. I'd place Warriors far ahead of them.

Bleakz87
12-02-2010, 02:34 PM
I'd like to see the army and math that, at 1500 points, will be able to take down most out of 8 vehicles (most would equal 5) reliably within 2 turns, keeping in mind that the Dark Eldar player would probably start the game on turn 1 and have a turbo-boosting cover save, or if they did on turn 2, would be mostly in cover to start.

There are ways to make Raiders and Ravagers last plenty long. With their ability to go 24" and gain a 4+ cover save, they can redeploy and ignore plenty of those missile/las shots coming their way. In fact, an empty or weapon-destroyed Raider can act as mobile cover, turbo-boosting across the table and obscuring another Raider from enemy fire, giving both vehicles a cover save. That's a lot more than Rhinos or Chimeras can boast.

What you need in your army to make it closer to competitive are a couple of Venoms with Trueborn with Blasters. 4 Blasters is going to be more than enough to down things, and the Venom's anti-infantry weapons can start whittling away at whatever's inside. If you're still having trouble popping things, Scourges are what Devestators wish they could be. They can rapidly redeploy13-18" and have enough ablative wounds to be able to weather plenty of enemy fire, not to mention 4 Dark Lances can be in a squad at a discount price compared to other models in the army.

Don't listen to people saying Dark Lances are overcosted or ineffective. Most Lascannons are 25+ points and aren't Lance. Most Melta Guns are cheaper, sure, but to use them against Dark Eldar you have to be within assault range, which means one turn of shooting before they're eaten up. Missile Launchers can be effective to a good degree, but they have a hefty price too, particularly being heavy weapons that you can't put on the prow of a vehicle.

The thing you're missing in your army is speed. Wracks aren't fast. If you want to tie up those Long Fangs you'll need Wyches and Hellions. If you want to take out those Razorbacks, you're going to need Trueborn, Scourges, and of course Ravagers. If you want to eat up those Terminators, take Bloodbrides, or just overwhelm them with wounds from Warriors.

Wracks do have a slightly higher toughness, two poison close combat weapons, and start the game with a Pain Token, but they're not the end-all be-all of troop choices for Dark Eldar. I'd place Warriors far ahead of them.

Great post but could you elaborate more as to why you prefer warriors over wracks for holding objective? If i get my wracks holding an objective in cover the get a 4+ then another 4+ and are toughness 4. If my warriors are holding an objective all they get is the one 4+ save and at T3

somerandomdude
12-02-2010, 04:02 PM
I'm assuming he meant Warriors with a pain token (which the Haemonculus provides) so it's the same amount of saves, although strength 6 hurts you more. However, the key to Warriors (other than being cheaper) is that they can sit on an objective and still do something (shoot). Unless you give out a Hexrifle to your Acothyst, your Wracks won't do anything to anyone outside of charge range.

Wracks are fantastic at clearing out objectives, but they're wasted potential to sit on an objective early.

Warriors = sit on objectives and shoot down enemies from a distance
Wracks = clear objectives (particularly midtable in cover) to help ensure a win
Wyches = Disrupt the opponent's line by holding up assault units/other troops to protect your Wracks/Warriors, and contest objectives that your Wracks can't get to
Hellions = Quick redeploy for far objectives and larger footprint

It's not as simple as which is better than the other, it's which one do you need at any particular point in a game. I'm sure a time will come when you need a wrack squad to liquify an IG platoon, but they won't be able to because they are camping somewhere.

Six troops (as good as they are) is not a necessity at 1500 points. All you need at the end of an objective game is to hold one more objective than your opponent. If they have no troops (or if you are contesting everywhere) then you can easily pull out a victory. Blaster Trueborn (BlasterBorn?) are cheaper than each of your troops, so you should include a few of them for disruption of the enemy line.

blackarmchair
12-03-2010, 01:33 AM
I'd like to see the army and math that, at 1500 points, will be able to take down most out of 8 vehicles (most would equal 5) reliably within 2 turns, keeping in mind that the Dark Eldar player would probably start the game on turn 1 and have a turbo-boosting cover save, or if they did on turn 2, would be mostly in cover to start.

There are ways to make Raiders and Ravagers last plenty long. With their ability to go 24" and gain a 4+ cover save, they can redeploy and ignore plenty of those missile/las shots coming their way. In fact, an empty or weapon-destroyed Raider can act as mobile cover, turbo-boosting across the table and obscuring another Raider from enemy fire, giving both vehicles a cover save. That's a lot more than Rhinos or Chimeras can boast.

What you need in your army to make it closer to competitive are a couple of Venoms with Trueborn with Blasters. 4 Blasters is going to be more than enough to down things, and the Venom's anti-infantry weapons can start whittling away at whatever's inside. If you're still having trouble popping things, Scourges are what Devestators wish they could be. They can rapidly redeploy13-18" and have enough ablative wounds to be able to weather plenty of enemy fire, not to mention 4 Dark Lances can be in a squad at a discount price compared to other models in the army.

Don't listen to people saying Dark Lances are overcosted or ineffective. Most Lascannons are 25+ points and aren't Lance. Most Melta Guns are cheaper, sure, but to use them against Dark Eldar you have to be within assault range, which means one turn of shooting before they're eaten up. Missile Launchers can be effective to a good degree, but they have a hefty price too, particularly being heavy weapons that you can't put on the prow of a vehicle.

The thing you're missing in your army is speed. Wracks aren't fast. If you want to tie up those Long Fangs you'll need Wyches and Hellions. If you want to take out those Razorbacks, you're going to need Trueborn, Scourges, and of course Ravagers. If you want to eat up those Terminators, take Bloodbrides, or just overwhelm them with wounds from Warriors.

Wracks do have a slightly higher toughness, two poison close combat weapons, and start the game with a Pain Token, but they're not the end-all be-all of troop choices for Dark Eldar. I'd place Warriors far ahead of them.

Ok. Dark Lances are bad for their points. If you want to compare it to the abysmal prices SM devestators pay for their weapons the math is a bit better off (although only marginally so). If you compare it to a 10pt rocket launcher in the Space Wolves Book, a 135pt fast auto/las pred or the horror that is vendetta/chimera spam then dark lances are awful.

I'll keep on going back to space wolves [because I play them :) ] compare a 25pt lance weapon to my 10pt rocket. it's 250% the cost for a VERY minor increase in effectiveness (only against AV13/14) and even in these cases the odds of actually breaking them are such that you need to bring something on the order of 30 dark lances to REALLY start doing good damage. This used to be possible under the old dex but at this point I don't see it happening.

Plus, getting back to the list, let's say this is the magical land where dark lances roll only 6s and you hit pen and explode that transport so your wracks drop out and get a few models under their template. Now they need to roll low enough AP to actually do damage to MEQs because they do NOT fear a flamer or two. So you're again gambling on a 50/50.

To further compound this, provided your lances work, your weak vehicles don't die and you manage to get into positions AND roll low enough to get the liquifiers to work right there's still no guarantee of a kill. A codex: space marine player will just voluntarily fall back leave you hanging and shoot the crap out of you. A space wolves/blood angels squad will honestly still give you a run for your money in cc. And an IG player simply doesn't care if you nuke one of his squads. Congrats you just wasted all that time to kill one chimera the other 6 will promptly shoot you dead.

Fact of the matter, there is no spam unit for DE. You need to approach the codex synergistically, that means not taking only wracks and ravagers. This codex is one that requires you to employ several units to fill the same function of a single one in other armies. A lot of former marine players are having issue with this idea.

Long story short: dark lances are mediocre, dark eldar are not a spammable army.

DrLove42
12-03-2010, 05:04 AM
I very much agree with you, a balenced approach is needed....blast pistols, haywire grenades, MC, furious charging wracks etc are required in addition to DL.

In my area the metagame is obviously very different. More than 3 enemy vehciles on the board is a little rare, 5 probably being the maximum. I don't need a kill in turn 1 to protect myself. Melta is generally short ranged, so that can be regarded cautiously. Shaken or stunned (assuming they don't ignore) is enough to buy me another turn shooting. Explodes and Wrecked are obviously the best, or even just weapon destroyed, and take out the main threat...anything but immobilised is good....

And then you use deployment. Even if you're going first play it safe, cover behind builldings for protection in case they seize the Init. Then when you go first or seize it yourself you burst out and punish them. With the exception of the cases mentioned above (25 longfanges, laspred etc) very few armies can put out that much S8/S9 fire per turn. And a lot oft he builds that can throw that out can be called very spammy indeed. Take 5 raiders and 2 ravagers and no one will call it spammy, cos its not, thats just how they are played.

and i agree...my lists have warriors on the backlines holding objective and punishing anything on foot that dares get close...gonna be pretty hard to find another unit in the game n the troop choice that can rapid fire 3 carnifaxes to death in one turn....

The DE is one of the best written balenced codexes ever. There are very few unbalenced bits in comparison to some modern codexes, nearly every unit is a viable choice, and their extreme stopping power is balenced by their fragility.

somerandomdude
12-03-2010, 07:39 AM
Shaken or stunned (assuming they don't ignore) is enough to buy me another turn shooting.

I'm wondering why this isn't talked about more here. Fire suppression is so so vital to the survival of any army, especially one like Dark Eldar. The math done earlier focused mostly on penetration/destruction, without realizing that just having the opportunity to roll on the damage table is important. I don't care what I get as the result, I just want as many results as possible. Given enough shots, the destruction will come, and until then, I'm safe(r) each turn.

*This is why I have fallen in love with haywire blasters.

blackarmchair
12-03-2010, 10:19 AM
I'm wondering why this isn't talked about more here. Fire suppression is so so vital to the survival of any army, especially one like Dark Eldar. The math done earlier focused mostly on penetration/destruction, without realizing that just having the opportunity to roll on the damage table is important. I don't care what I get as the result, I just want as many results as possible. Given enough shots, the destruction will come, and until then, I'm safe(r) each turn.

*This is why I have fallen in love with haywire blasters.

Very true. This is one of the reasons I would advocate for haywire grenades too. They're not perfect, the squad that hopped out to use them tends to die. But they're very good at glancing multiple tanks