1850 Gunline Marines

[RIGHT-Titan]

So I've pulled out my old marines and I'm retooling what was a more punchy list into a gunline style army.

This is what I've come up with thus far. I'm looking for comments and critique to make it better. Only restriction is that I want it to be reasonable in a pre-heresy setting.

HQ:
Captain with Relic blade and artificer armor
Command squad with company banner
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

TROOPS:
10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Lascannon
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Lascannon
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Missile Launcher
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

ELITES:
Dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon and missile launcher
Dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon and missile launcher
Dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon and missile launcher

FAST ATTACK:
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Predator with autocannon/heavy bolter
Predator with autocannon/heavy bolter
Predator with autocannon/heavy bolter

Total: 1850

One suggestion I've received already was to pull the Captain and Command Squad, which I'm happy to do if we can make something more appropriate fit there. Including their Razorback that squad is 315 points.

Thanks

[Feighan-Raask]

Slight problem with what you have put, Razorbacks can only hold 6 models. Everything is going to have to go in Rhinos.

[Sir Biscuit]

Yeah, the command squad has gotta go. I see what you're trying to do here, but a lot (most, in fact) of the choices can be done better for cheaper in the marine list.

1.) Drop the captain and command squad, replace them with a librarian with Null Zone and a power of your choice. Null Zone is incredibly powerful, especially for lists that need a low number of powerful shooting attacks to take out invulnerable enemies. The libby is a bargain at 100 points, no need to upgrade him further.
FREES UP 215

2.) Second, turn all the dreadnoughts into riflemen dreads. (2x autocannons) They're not as good against heavy armor, but they're MUCH better against AV10-12, and much cheaper to boot. They're also slightly better against infantry, and cheaper. There's a reason why the rifleman dread is such a popular choice: it's extremely effective.
FREES UP 60

3.) You are going to have to ditch the razorbacks, I'm afraid, if you want to be able to play this as a heresy army. (They weren't created until after.) Instead, replace them with Rhinos. This also means you should be running your squads full instead of splitting them. (Which is what I assume you intended.) That means drop the lascannons, as you'll be moving more forward with your marines: pick up the cheaper multi-melta instead, it's superior to the lascannon within 24" anyway. Multimelta/Melta and Multimelta/Flamer are both extremely effective choices. I like to run plasma cannons on my shooty marines, but this doesn't seem to work out for a lot of people, so maybe proxy before trying anything like that.
FREES UP 40

4.) Typhoons are cool, but actually not really appropriate for this list, as the enemy will be coming to you. Drop them for the very effective and cost efficient MM/HF speeders instead.
FREES UP 60

These changes give you 380 points to play around with. Nice! There are only two issues now:
A.) We don't have anywhere for the librarian to go.
B.) There's no real CC units in this army.

Shooting the enemy to death is all well and good, but also impossible before they get to you. Any kind of dedicated fast melee army will munch happily on you, and there's not much you can do about it.

Fortunately, you can THUNDERBUBBLE.

Take that 380, buy the libby terminator armor + storm shield, and spend the rest on terminators. (TH/SS, of course.) That gets you 8 terminators. Make your libbys second power gate to give them some mobility. The last 15 points can become dozer blades for the Rhinos, need to make sure they don't break during late turn objective grabs.

Then stand them in front of your army. What's the enemy gonna do? Melee them? Shoot long fangs at them? It's an enormous barrier to overcome and gives you some very potent field control.

Anyway, things to try out. Let us know how it goes. =)

[RIGHT-Titan]

Some of your suggestions I really like, others not so much.

I'm not a fan of MM/HF Speeders. I find they do in fact perform ok, but they die so damned fast... I like the fact that with the TML/HB combo I can do something from turn 1, and from 36-48" effective range. Great for pounding longfang squads, oblits etc, that love to hang out in the back field.

I had initially taken my 3 vindicators out of the list, but I'm thinking of taking out the predators and putting them back in.

I will definitely drop the Command Squad and Captain in favour of the Librarian. Just trying to figure out what kind of big blocker unit I want. I'm thinking a slightly smaller Terminator squad, and I might drop the dreadnoughts down from TLLC/ML to TLLC/DCCW. Gives them some versatility and can hold things up if it gets dicey.

The TLAC/TLAC Rifleman though is tempting and puts out a withering amount of fire against transports and infantry.

Part of the problem of going termies is having to take out a dreadnought. While not the end of the world it is disheartening.

As far as the razorbacks go, I'll probably end up leaving them, but doing a modification on them to turn them into Rhinos with an actual space marine gunner out the top and changing his storm bolter to a heavy bolter to make it work. Already cleared that with our campaign guy.

It just has to be appropriately modeled and reasonable. That is to say you can get away with that, but you won't get away with a land raider redeemer or crusader.

I'll retool a bit and post what I find. Hoping to get a game in this week.

[Tynskel]

Going along the lines of the changes that Sir Biscuit suggested:
If you do not want Thunder Hammer Terminators (which, I don't believe they existed until after the heresy, or the majority of Chaos would be using them too... although, the hammer is a symbol of the imperium), you can go with a different approach.

Upgrade the Preds to Lascannon Sponsons. I would also make one a vindicator with siege shield. Those are fun!
An assault squad is an excellent back-up/counter charge unit. Take a Chaplain as the 'commander' with a jump pack. Just hang out behind the wall of tanks, and when something comes, jump over, smashy smashy, then jump back.

If you like the Command Squad: I would go with Captain Sicarius. He's quite flexible, and he upgrades one of your tactical squads. Ld 10 for everyone is fun.

[Sir Biscuit]

I think TH/SS existed before the heresy... I don't have any evidence to back it up (IE specific accounts of squads being fielded) though Dorn certainly used a thunder hammer. Considering the rapid devolution of technology post-heresy, I'd be surprised if both weren't created before. But whatevs.

Honestly, the best razorback is the Lascannon/Twin-Linked Plasma gun ones. It looks expensive at first glance, but is actually one of the most (if not THE most) efficient heavy weapon mount in the codex. Probably can't get away with it in this campaign, but you should proxy it and try it out in some casual games, you might like it.

If you're going razorback, you're splitting your squads... so your heavy weapon choice could actually change. Plasma cannons are great on a split squad, as it turn them into a dedicated infantry killer that can still hurt light armor. The multimelta is also a decent choice, 24" is surprisingly far, and quite effective at any transports which come forward into midfield.

Regarding dreads... as cool as melee dreads are, they're just not worth it. They don't kill things nearly fast enough in melee, can't go toe to toe with monstrous creatures, and are very slow compared to any mechanized army. Until GW wises up and gives them more than 2 attacks, stick with ranged dreads.

Speeders are up to personal preferance. I like to play mine further forward with MM/HF so they can zoom in and block charge lanes as needed, but YMMV. Certainly nothing wrong with typhoons if that's what you prefer.

I'd look at trying to get up to 7 terminators as well... it might not seem like 2 would make a difference, but it is HUGE. At any rate, the only thing you can really do now is playtest and ruthlessly remake it. =)

[RIGHT-Titan]

From what I've read, the Hammers were rare-ER than they are today but did obviously - Dorn being a prime example.

I don't think I'll be able to get away with the LC/TLPC variant as much as I'd like to. But maybe going back to vindicators will add a little punch. I own 3 already as well.

I think I'm going to stick with the ranged dreads in some capacity, I goofed around with my list last night, but I'm 10 points over now... doh...

I seriously thought about going with a Chappy in Jump pack with some assault marines. I can get more marines for my dollar and probably fit them more easily into the list... They definitely don't have the staying power of terminators, but I can keep them buried behind the rest of the line and move them to counter like you say Tyns.


Ultimately though you're right. Play testing will be huge.

Here is the list in it's illegal 10 point over iteration lol.

HQ:
Librarian in Terminator Armor with Stormshield

TROOPS:
10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Lascannon
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Lascannon
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Missile Launcher
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

ELITES:
Dreadnought with two twin-linked assault cannons
Dreadnought with two twin-linked assault cannons
5x Terminators, with cyclone missile launcher

FAST ATTACK:
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Vindicator with siege shield
Vindicator with siege shield
Vindicator with siege shield

Total: 1860 :(

[RIGHT-Titan]

Here is the Jump Pack Chaplain version:

HQ:
Chaplain in Jump Pack

TROOPS:
10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Lascannon
Sergeant with Combi-Melta
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Lascannon
Sergeant with Combi-Melta
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

10x tactical marines
Meltagun
Missile Launcher
Razorback with twin-linked heavy bolters

ELITES:
Dreadnought with two twin-linked assault cannons
Dreadnought with two twin-linked assault cannons
Dreadnought with two twin-linked assault cannons

FAST ATTACK:
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon
5x Assault Marine
Flamer

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Vindicator with siege shield
Vindicator with siege shield
Vindicator with siege shield

Total: 1850


It's legal although the Assault Squad I don't know how tough it is... I guess playtesting is in order ;) I do like the idea of bringing back my Sicarius model. He was the original commander of my army lol.

But we'll see if we can fit him in or not. As it is it's tight but fits right to the brim. I did have the luxury of adding 2 Combi-weapons to 2 of the 3 tac squads with the left over 10 points from the assault squad in this list.

Thoughts?

[Tynskel]

where are you getting two twin-linked assault cannons on the dreads?


Also, the razorback came out c35,000. Welllllllll after the HH.

Also, the I believe the Assault Cannon was a Blood Angels only weapon until after the HH. Terminators used reaper autocannons.

[RIGHT-Titan]

where are you getting two twin-linked assault cannons on the dreads?


Also, the razorback came out c35,000. Welllllllll after the HH.

Also, the I believe the Assault Cannon was a Blood Angels only weapon until after the HH. Terminators used reaper autocannons.

Sorry I meant Autocannons....

And yeah I know the Razorback is Post-Heresy. Me and one of the campaign organizers are modifying them so they are more compliant model wise.

[Tynskel]

?
So are you guys playing at 35,000 campaign?

[RIGHT-Titan]

No.

The Basic structure is: One player for each legion. 1000 points per army. Every model must be modified to be heresy era appropriate.

From reading the HH novels you can make similar arguments about Chaplains and Librarians, and while present performed much different roles and functions in combat than they do now. What we discussed was that using razorbacks was fine, as long as they are modeled as Rhinos with a heavy bolter instead of the stormbolter. The logic being that the Black Library takes some liberties and so can we. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that some enterprising marine decided "Hey, I've got this *****in' heavy bolter... I should pop out the top hatch and shoot stuffs with it till they're dead!". So if you can reasonably model it like that then fine.

Things like the Land Raider Redeemers, with Flamestorm cannons and Crusaders etc, that have specific purposes and introductions are off limits.

Another good example was the thunderfire cannon. Not Pre-heresy either, but we were able to modify or custom build something to be the Ordinatus Cannons used by heresy era guard in artillery support of the legions.

Sometimes the story told is better than 100% cannonical accuracy if it's justifiable.


I've already exceeded my 1000 points required for the campaign, my gaming group just often plays 1850 so I'd like the rest of the force to match :P

Hence these lists.

[Tynskel]

ah, makes sense. funky... but, yeah.

[RIGHT-Titan]

Well I played my first game with the Chaplain list tonight.

1850 Spearhead Seize Ground 5 Objectives.

Ultramarines vs Blood Angels

I won't do the full batrep right now, as it's late... but it was a learning experience that much is certain.

I had first turn, and castled a gunline defensive position on the two objectives in my immediate area. I had placed one objective in open ground near me with good lines of sight for my vindicators to fire upon.

I played soundly but the dice were not on my side tonight.

Squeeked out a tie on the last turn.

A few key moments:

Rifleman dread rolling 4 1's then twinlinking 2 1's and 2 2's on the re-roll.
I forgot to pop smoke on my vindicators first turn which resulted possibly in me losing one that I need not lose to a deepstriking furioso.
His heavy bolter razorbacks tore my marines in cover APART. I failed so many saves it wasn't funny.
Mephiston is just not fair.
Very poor dice rolling on my part. By turn 3 all my list had been able to do was kill the deepstriking dreadnought, rip a lascannon off his landraider and stun some transports/baal predator.
Riflemen are fine, in theory, against transports... useless against anything else tonight. Will have to play test more.

I missed not having my redeemer. I am considering adding it back in. It doesn't fit the heresy timeline but that's not the end of the world to be honest. The campaign is only 1000 points and it won't be in my 1k list by any means.

I kinda missed having a big angry mob of terminators too.

[RIGHT-Titan]

I just realized that both the new lists are 40 points off because on my spreadsheet I forgot to remove the command squad razorback... So I played 40 points under my opponent last night... Might not have made a huge difference but it didn't help.

I'm kinda dumb that way.