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ChaplainCliff
12-08-2010, 08:43 PM
Hey all, I have gotten the go-ahead from my wife to buy a new army, I have settled on daemons so far and got a 2500 point list ready to go, What I want and need is some good critisism on it and what I could do to make this a great list, I am not partial to any aspect aside from nurgle stuff, I would like to avoid it if I can, I never liked how they looked, just not for me. Anyway thanks for all the help!

HQ
skull taker 140
herald of khorne juggernought 105

Troops
bloodletters, 20 320
bloodletters, 20 320
daemonettes, 20 transfixing gaze 285
daemonettes, 20 transfixing gaze 285

Elites
blood crushers of khorne, 4 160
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105

Fast Attack
seekers of slanesh, 5 transfixing gaze 90
seekers of slanesh, 5 transfixing gaze 90

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze instrument of chaos 165
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze instrument of chaos 165
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze instrument of chaos 165

Points Summary:
HQ: 245
Troops: 1210
Elites: 370
Fast Attack: 180
Heavy Support: 495
Total: 2500

Connjurus
12-09-2010, 12:36 AM
In any list other than Daemons, I would hate to see 20-man squads.

In this list, it's awesome. Why're you taking Daemonettes, though? You could take Horrors instead (not quite 20-man squads), and lay down a staggering amount of firepower instead to soften targets up for those Bloodletters.

ChaplainCliff
12-09-2010, 04:51 AM
you have a very good point, I have updated the list a little, and switched around some points:

HQ
skulltaker 135
herald of khorne juggernaught 105

Troops
bloodletters, 20 320
bloodletters, 20 320
pink horrors, 17 changeling 294
pink horrors, 17 289

Elites
blood crushers of khorne, 4 160
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105

Fast Attack
seekers of slanesh, 10 170

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze instrument of chaos 165
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze instrument of chaos 165
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze instrument of chaos 165

Points Summary:
HQ: 240
Troops: 1223
Elites: 370
Fast Attack: 170
Heavy Support: 495
Total: 2498

eagleboy7259
12-10-2010, 12:02 PM
In 2,500pts you need as many big nasties as possible. I would sugguest adding a greater demon to that HQ (Fateweaver, Bloodthirster or Keeper of Secrets) Drop the second Khrone herald - he's not really adding that much for 2x the cost of your Crushers. Instead get the Blue Scribes - they rock if you know how to use them right. Don't drop them in with flamers, they'll just alpha strike and die. Instead drop them with your Horrors - as a meat sheild - them pavene of slaanesh or bolt stuff around. "But you can't cast pavene on the same target twice!" Oh but you can cast it on one target and then if you have to use it again turn around and hit another target. I think I like him with Crushers better than Fateweaver somedays.

ALWAYS get bolt and fury on your demons - you have no idea how much it can pay off when facing down a dreadnought or tank that just happens to be blocking LOS. I would never run squads of horrors so large - they just die. T3 v mass bolter fire is optomisic at best. 4+ Inv. save is some buffer to that, but smaller units 7-8 with bolt tend to work better for me. Plus it helps to add in some anti-tank which is very much needed at 2,500pts.

Now between your two lists you have a very different sort of momentium going. Khrone and Slaanesh is a nasty beast if you use Skarbrand - in fact its probably the best assault army in the game. For that list I'd drop the flamers and get fiends. Even Demonettes can pose a threat with re-rolls and rending in that kind of a list. It really makes it so that every unit in your list can threatern every unit of your opponent till Skarbrand dies. As a buffer to that I've seen people take Fateweaver just to protect Skarbrand and the demonettes from getting whiped off the board through sheer weight of fire.

Norbu the Destroyer
12-10-2010, 12:10 PM
I agree with what Eagleboy said.

On a side note between the horrors, deamonettes, and bloodletters, I would use medium sized horrors (6-8) with bolt. To get melee troops, I would take 20 deamonettes over 20 bloddletters any day, ESPECIALLY if Skarbrand is on the board. I have used a unit like this to take down Logan and the dropping long fangs, as well as crashing into walls of armour. The speed is key, and with that many attacks being rerolled, vehicles that move over six arent safe.

Watch out for armour 13 though. Use fiends for that shennanigans.

Also, equip those Bloodcrushers with Icon, Fury, music, not only for wound allocation, but an icon that is tough to take out, and drednaught insurance.

ChaplainCliff
12-10-2010, 01:14 PM
Ok, so after looking at your suggestions I believe I have come up with something a little more viable then what I had, giving me some more flexability and a bigger hit on the board, I hope this is an upgrade from what I have had.

HQ
skarbrand 300
skulltaker juggernaught blue scribes 305

Troops
bloodletters, 20 fury of khorne chaos icon 355
deaemonettes, 20 280
pink horrors, 8 bolt of tzeentch 146
pink horrors, 8 bolt of tzeentch 146

Elites
blood crushers of khorne, 6 chaos icon fury of khorn 275
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160

Points Summary:
HQ: 605
Troops: 927
Elites: 485
Heavy Support: 480
Total: 2497

eagleboy7259
12-11-2010, 03:47 PM
Skarbrand only helps out your CC units, and he's actually quite detremental to Tzeentch and Nurgle units. If you're going to use him, go PURE Khrone / Slaanesh - and even to that end I'd go more Slaanesh than Khrone.

ChaplainCliff
12-11-2010, 07:37 PM
Skarbrand only helps out your CC units, and he's actually quite detremental to Tzeentch and Nurgle units. If you're going to use him, go PURE Khrone / Slaanesh - and even to that end I'd go more Slaanesh than Khrone.

the reason i have skarbrand in is for the close combat units and to help boost the ranged units, the DP's are good enough at CC alone, so this only helps, the horrors, are ok at CC so there it is a boon, but the major hurt of my army is the CC units that I have, the ranged units will be prtected as long as my strategy happens even somewhat well, and I need a big baddy that is hard to kill or draw attention ( I now have 4, lol) but I will try a play test on the list, but what you mentioed is true, but I like a more combined arms aproach, if any of this makes any sense.

eagleboy7259
12-11-2010, 10:15 PM
Makes complete sense. =D

Yes he does help out the smaller guys, but he also helps out the enemy - werid ability I know. Sure it half throws WS out the window - but then it becomes all about Initative. Khrone is alright becuz if you charge you're I5, Slaanesh even better because nobody is catching I6. Skarbrand tends to turn every assault into a massacre for both sides if the Initative is tied. I tried bringing him in my Khrone / Tzeentch list before, I don't anymore. Something about a tactical squad on the charge whiping out a full unit of bloodletters really hurt (The Tac. died too but still)

ChaplainCliff
12-12-2010, 07:51 AM
So I was contemplating my list a little bit more and realized something, I could bring in a more efficient way to have my ranged fire and close combat monstrosities work. I ended up making a newish list with 4 Tzeentch heralds on chariots and the DP's are of Khorne. This build I hope is pretty nasty, the army ends up being Tzeentch / Khorne, which is not a bad thing really.

HQ
herald of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch breath of chaos chariot of tzeentch herald of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch breath of chaos chariot of tzeentch 250
herald of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch breath of chaos chariot of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch breath of chaos chariot of tzeentch 250

Troops
bloodletters, 20 fury of khorne chaos icon music 360
bloodletters, 20 fury of khorne music 335
pink horrors, 8 bolt of tzeentch 146
pink horrors, 8 bolt of tzeentch 146

Elites
blood crushers of khorne, 6 chaos icon fury of khorn 275
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of khorne blessing of the blood god death strike unholy might iron hide 175
daemon prince, 1 mark of khorne blessing of the blood god death strike unholy might iron hide 175
daemon prince, 1 mark of khorne blessing of the blood god death strike unholy might iron hide 175

Points Summary:
HQ: 500
Troops: 987
Elites: 485
Heavy Support: 525
Total: 2497

the icons are more of filler as I couldn't figure what I wanted in the last 100 points or so, they also are a nice boon for the army as it drops.

I think the use of the models in this game is pretty self explanatory, so I will just let you all comment.

ChaplainCliff
12-13-2010, 12:40 PM
So after some thought I have finally tried a Nurgle list, I avoided it for no really good reason, aside from the look, but I can fix that somewhat. I have a very Nurgley list here with nothing that is non-Nurgle, this of course make Epidimious a huge target, so I have him stuck in a wound blanket of Nurglings, the second Herald is to help balance my incoming groups of the force so I am not so completely screwed when the role goes wrong. I want to drop in Epidimious with the nurglings, Ku'goth and a Daemon Prince, one of the beats of Nurgle squads, and 2 of the empty Plague Bearer squads, the rest is in my second group.

Epidimious will sit back on an objective in his little shell of protection, with a squad of plague bearers if really needed. the rest is up for whatever the opponent does to take on or hold some squads for later.

HQ
epidimious herald of nurgle cloud of flies aura of decay breath of chaos 210
ku'gath the plaguefather 300

Troops
plague bearers, 20 herald music 305
plague bearers, 20 300
plague bearers, 20 300
plague bearers, 20 300
nurglings, 6 epidimous 78

Elites
beats of nurgle, 3 105
beats of nurgle, 3 105

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of nurgle cloud of flies breath of chaos aura of decay 165
daemon prince, 1 mark of nurgle cloud of flies breath of chaos aura of decay 165
daemon prince, 1 mark of nurgle cloud of flies breath of chaos aura of decay 165

Points Summary:
HQ: 510
Troops: 1283
Elites: 210
Heavy Support: 495
Total: 2498

forgive all the posts, I am just playing around with lists till I find one that I like, but I don't want a gimp list to start with, the great thing about this is I can paint it really fast, and best of all, ALL METAL! I have always wanted a full metal army, and this will be my way to get it.

eagleboy7259
12-13-2010, 04:32 PM
Props to you if you can afford all that. You're talking $88 per squad before tax. Although I'm with you with the pewter enthusiasm.

I don't walk the Nurgle line, but here's what I do know - Tally armies work best in smaller games. Basically you're relying upon 4 models to grind up the kill count. These models have to be bad out of hell otherwise you're dead in the water. Usually taking the form of 3 'god-princes' of nurgle (winged, MoN, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide, Aura of Decay / Breath of Chaos / Demonic Gaze, Noxious Touch / Unholy Might) and a GUO. Kugath is just a waste of points. To start with, he's almost double the cost of a regular GUO for +1 attack and wound. He doesn't have Unholy Might, nor does he have the option to get it - not a deal breaker but definately helps popping tanks. In return he gives you a mediorce Large Blast weapon and the ability to create a single nurgle base per turn. Not worth the +140pts you pay IMOP, especially when you are already gonna bring 3 pricey monsters.

The Tallyman has to be on the table for you to start getting benefits. Any kills you make before you get there don't count, and his arrival time varies due to the nature of our army. Also if he dies, you lose the benefits, so you have to keep him with a large group of plaguebearers. Then there's the real problem - the real benefits don't start till 10-20 models. In smaller games that usually about half the enemies army. In larger games, you simply can't rely on four models, T6 or not, to do all the killing for you.

Outside of those 4 models you can help them with large squads of Nurglings - hard to kill and moderately kill themselves, and Beasts of Nurgle - like two plaguebearers in one only with D6 attacks and givng one noxious touch is worthwhile. Out of all four gods, Nurgle struggles the most with enemy armor - the GUO and Demon Princes are the only things capable of dealing with it. So when those four models die, your enemy just has to hide in his Rhino, Wave Serpent, etc. and camp on the objective to win the game.

Blight Drones make this a different story, but Tally armies fall into friendly category - not competitve.

ChaplainCliff
12-13-2010, 09:13 PM
here is another update, I am really trying to get a good, competitive list out there with a good balance and feel of daemons, I have a new 2500 point list to run by you all, this is kind of a mash up of all i have learned in my recent delve into daemons, and a mash up of all the lists i have made, it has a lot of the strengths of these and removes quite a few weaknesses, there is probably some holes, but that is what you all are here for right?

HQ
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery chariot of tzeentch breath of chaos chariot of tzeentch the blue scribes 260
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery chariot of tzeentch breath of chaos chariot of tzeentch herald of tzeentch master of sorcery chariot of tzeentch breath of chaos chariot of tzeentch 260

Troops
plague bearer, 5 chaos icon 100
plague bearer, 5 75
plague bearer, 5 75
plague bearer, 5 75
daemonettes of slanesh, 15 210
daemonettes of slanesh, 15 210

Elites
fiends of slanesh, 6 180
fiends of slanesh, 6 180
fiends of slanesh, 6 180

Fast Attack
flesh hounds of khorne, 10 karanak 185

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze master of sorcery 170
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze master of sorcery 170
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze master of sorcery 170

Points Summary:
HQ: 520
Troops: 745
Elites: 540
Fast Attack: 185
Heavy Support: 510
Total: 2500

grp one is herald and blue scribes, 2 nurgle squads, 1 daemonettes squad, 2 fiends, and 2 DP's
grp two is 2 heralds, 2 nurgle squads, 1 daemonettes squad, 1 fiends, 1 karnak grp, 1 DP

eagleboy7259
12-14-2010, 01:33 AM
I like the list. It uses all the best power units from the book T.heralds, Fiends, Demon Princes, Plaguebearers. Blue Scribes seem a little pointless in there, Pavene and Bolt is really their game and they need a unit of Horrors to hide out in. Better to scrap them and take another T.herald. Karanak also seems to be sucking up points. I used to use him to get two guys with Fury in my Flesh Hounds, for 50pts and a 5+ inv. he is not worth 3 Rending attacks. Besides your Fiends and Demonettes are fast enough, you don't really need a unit whose primary role is to tie stuff up. I'd put bolt on the T. Heralds, Unholy Might on the Fiends, and Flesh out the Plaguebearers to 7-8 strong.

http://40kdaemonreview.blogspot.com/

I'd give that a quick gander. One of the other members showed it to me a year ago when I was first getting into demons. He makes some good points but is kind of a downer and not much of an out of the box thinker - some stuff is great when applied to the right unit or in the right situation! He's wrong about the Blue Scribes - Pavene / Pavene - Masters of Socery and We are Legion let you Pavene two different units in one shooting phase. Overall pretty good insight with a decent list or two at the end.

Common Demon Builds:

Fatecrusher - Bring Fateweaver along with Bloodcrushers and Demon Princes.
Skarbrand & Friends - Bring Skarbrand along with any CC unit you desire. Slaanesh > Khrone
Tallyman - Epidemius, GUO, 3 Nurgle DP's and as many nurgle guys as it takes to fill out the army


Here's my 2000pt List - about 50/50 win loss ratio but armor has never been a problem for this list. Went for theme over sheer competitiveness literally half tzeentch - half khrone.

Fateweaver - 333pts
Bloodthirster w/ Unholy Might & Blessing of the Blood God - 275pts

3 Flamers - 105pts
3 Flamers - 105pts
4 Bloodcrushers w/ Fury of Khrone - 170pts

5 Horrors w/ Changling & Bolt - 100pts
5 Horrors w/ Bolt - 95pts
5 Horrors w/ Bolt - 95pts
5 Horrors w/ Bolt - 95pts
10 Bloodletters w/ Fury of Khrone & Icon - 195pts

10 Flesh Hounds w/ Fury of Khrone - 160pts

Soul Grinder - 135pts
Soul Grinder - 135pts


Now if this were to be a true tournament demons list, I would drop Fatweaver for a GUO or KoS, Bloodcrushers for Fiends, Bloodletters for2x5 Plaguebearers, Get another Soul Grinder, and use the rest of the points to flesh out the troops.

ChaplainCliff
12-14-2010, 05:15 AM
thanks a ton for all the help, here is what i got now.

HQ
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110

Troops
plague bearer, 5 music 80
plague bearer, 5 75
plague bearer, 5 75
plague bearer, 5 75
bloodletters of khorne, 15 240
daemonettes of slanesh, 15 210

Elites
fiends of slanesh, 6 180
fiends of slanesh, 6 180
fiends of slanesh, 6 180

Fast Attack
seekers of slanesh, 10 170
screamers of tzeentch, 4 64
screamers of tzeentch, 3 48

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160

Points Summary:
HQ: 440
Troops: 755
Elites: 540
Fast Attack: 282
Heavy Support: 480
Total: 2497

eagleboy7259
12-15-2010, 08:59 PM
Sounds good! As good as you can get on paper. Balancing is going to come through playtesting, but thats going to need to be tailored to your unqiue style as a player.

ChaplainCliff
12-16-2010, 12:04 AM
so I got a list that is a little more refined here, just for the sake of it.

HQ
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110
herald of tzeentch master of sorcery we are legion bolt of tzeentch chariot of tzeentch 110

Troops
plague bearer, 8 120
plague bearer, 8 120
plague bearer, 8 120
plague bearer, 8 120
bloodletters of khorne, 14 224
daemonettes of slanesh, 14 196

Elites
fiends of slanesh, 5 150
fiends of slanesh, 5 150
fiends of slanesh, 5 150

Fast Attack
seekers of slanesh, 10 170
screamers of tzeentch, 3 48

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160

Points Summary:
HQ: 440
Troops: 900
Elites: 450
Fast Attack: 218
Heavy Support: 480
Total: 2488

not sure about the last 22 points though.

Unzuul the Lascivious
12-21-2010, 04:08 AM
KHORNE!

Please spell it right, I lose sleep...

Daemonette666
12-26-2010, 05:06 PM
Ok, so after looking at your suggestions I believe I have come up with something a little more viable then what I had, giving me some more flexability and a bigger hit on the board, I hope this is an upgrade from what I have had.

HQ
skarbrand 300
skulltaker juggernaught blue scribes 305

Troops
bloodletters, 20 fury of khorne chaos icon 355
deaemonettes, 20 280
pink horrors, 8 bolt of tzeentch 146
pink horrors, 8 bolt of tzeentch 146

Elites
blood crushers of khorne, 6 chaos icon fury of khorn 275
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105
flamers of tzeentch, 3 105

Heavy Support
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160
daemon prince, 1 mark of tzeentch bolt of tzeentch daemonic gaze 160

Points Summary:
HQ: 605
Troops: 927
Elites: 485
Heavy Support: 480
Total: 2497
I would replace one unit of Flamers with a unit of Fiends, drop 2 Daemon princes of Tzeentch and replace with a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with Pavane of Slaanesh and wings. Add a unit of Seekers of Slaanesh, and with the spare points I would replace one of the heralds of Tzeentch with a Blood Thirster. It is less Tzeentch based, but it gives you a more rounded out force, so you can still have a good ammount of shooting, and a hard hitting fast assault force.