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Grailkeeper
01-17-2011, 08:52 AM
I was thinking of getting into warmachine. I was wondering if you could tell me two things

1.the fluff behind cygnar
2. Are cygnar the ultramarines of warmachine ie looked down on as a noob army, played by beginners who soon leave the hobby (and conicidentally blue and the closest thing to good guys?)

Image
01-17-2011, 10:03 AM
I just got into Warmachine and one of my gaming buddies picked up Cygnar. I don't know the fluff behind them - or even the world - all that well yet, but I would not consider them a "noob" army. The few games I've had against them have been challenging, yet compelling - as Warmachine mostly seems to be to me. The way my friend plays reminds me a lot of an Empire army, taking advantage of shooting before closing in with the advantage. Instead of comparing them to marines, I'd liken them to an Empire fantasy army as they seem to be an everyman kind of army.

Honestly, I'd recommend checking out privateer press' website for the gallery and seeing if the models are compelling to you while also checking out the insights on Battle College to see if the thoughts and tactics fit your play style. :)

Lastly, I'll say this, in the previous month of playing Warmachine, it's been a long time since I've been so excited about a game. It truly is a well-made game with a lot of depth presented in simple rules. If you decide to pursue it, definitely grab a starter box first and have a couple of games. It's not a huge investment considering it's only $50 or so and building up to a 35 point army is really easy and relatively inexpensive compared to 40k.

I hope you enjoy it! :D

Bentron
01-17-2011, 12:20 PM
Grailkeeper,

I happen to be that "buddy" of Image who just got into Warmachine along with him and some others in our gaming group. I've also have never really been so excited about a modeling game (...except maybe Mordheim?) before, and believe it or not, but I've actually painted up all of my Starter Box models already. It's a first for me to have a fully painted army, and they actually look great painted up on the field. (especially given that I'm probably the biggest painting nOOb in our group)

So far, Cygnar has been the "ranged army" of our group even though the other factions are fully capable of bringing shooting as well. I would definitely say that if you're beginning the game, Cygnar may seem quite powerful, but once your friends/gaming group manage to get a solid grasp of the game, Cygnar quickly loses its edge and becomes quite balanced. They definitely are not the Ultramarines, instead, I would say that no faction are the Ultramarines of Warmachine. If you want to try Cygnar, you need to love 3 things. Lightning, Goggles, and tactical flexibility. [Although, to be fair, all factions are quite flexible due to the unique qualities of Warcasters]

I would totally second Image's idea to purchase the Battle box of your favourite faction (be it Cygnar or otherwise) and give it a solid go. I haven't regretted it at all, and I've even recently expanded my force to the 18pt mark. I'm sure I'll be continuing to the 25 point mark within a month or so, and finally 35pts before the summer hits. Can't wait!

FastEd
01-17-2011, 04:26 PM
As somebody who's been playing 40k for over a decade, and Warmachine (and Hordes once it came out) for, if memory serves, six years, there isn't really an equivalent to Marines in the way that they are pervasively everywhere, everyone has some. Some groups may tend toward having a few more of one faction or another, but that's just how things are.

I also wouldn't say there is a newbie faction, since people are drawn to so many different armies. With new players, both when teaching or when just playing against them, there seems to just be a playstyle difference as they are a little more reserved or conservative in their choices.

It's hard to call anybody in Warmachine/Hordes 'the good guys'.As far as Cygnar's background, they would very much so like to be the benevolent monarchy, however it's difficult because of various wealthy and noble families who threaten to pull support so they can get their way (which has caused both internal and external conflict in the past, notably being the reason that the Trollbloods hate Cygnar). Really, it's hard to sum everything up, but here's a bit from the wikipedia entry (faster then trying to type the history of Cygnar):

Cygnar is the most prosperous and most technologically advanced nation of the Iron Kingdoms. Of all the human factions it could also be considered the most benevolent, although that has begun to change with recent events. Cygnar's ballistic technology is unsurpassed, and the Cygnaran specialty, arcane electrical energy, can fry opposing warjacks' cortices, rendering them far less effective in combat.

Here's the rest of the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnar), which has links to the other faction's articles as well.

Grailkeeper
01-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Thanks I just put down a bid on some stuff on ebay- its kinda of a random grab bag

Is it true that Warmachine is very balanced and that every unit is basically as good, for its points, as any other?

Bentron
01-17-2011, 05:19 PM
Yes and no.

Yes, in that each unit has a purpose, and yes each unit can excel at certain things. Each unit seems to be quite balanced, and worth its points. Yes also in that each unit has various complements that render it even more effective until they can become a solid core of your victory strategy.

No, in that not all units are equal. No also in that randomly combining any units isn't as effective as methodically choosing and selecting which units to bring to a match. No also in that if you don't select units that are synergetic with your Warcaster then they become dead weight.

... essentially each faction has numerous interesting and powerful Warcasters. I would venture so far as to say each faction will have at least one that both fits your play style and you'll enjoy. If you like a Warcaster, you can choose units that complement and bring the best out of them. Likewise, if you like a unit, you can choose a Warcaster that enhances them and makes them the effective unit you want them to be. Really, the options are endless.

scadugenga
01-17-2011, 08:26 PM
Grail: Pretty much what the other's have said. :)

There's a bit of elemental affinity in the WM side of things:

Cygnar: Lightning
Menoth: Fire
Khador: Ice
Cryx: Soul? Acid? Icky stuff.

Cygnar does play very ranged oriented with a lot of synergistic units. They tend to be the most "technologically advanced" of the four main factions. They seem on surface to be "the good guys" but as you'll find out reading the fluff--there really is no "good guy" in the world politico system. I'd say it's all shades of gray--but Cryx is about as black as black can get. Eeeeevil.

Menoth is your horde army. Nothing is really outstanding in and of itself, but as (I believe?) Stalin once said--quantity has a quality all it's own. Religious zealotry in all it's...um, fiery wrath.

Khador is very obviously drawn from Russia, from the accents to the different peoples, etc. Khador is primarily an in-your-face melee oriented army. (Yes, they have ranged ability, but it's really sub par, comparatively.) The only faction with no light jacks, their heavies are the most resilient, and hard-hitting, of all the factions. No arc nodes (outside the Old Witch) means that their caster's have to get closer in to deal damage with their offensive spells.

Cryx: Evil undead bone and hell jacks. Iron liches. Bizarro horned sadistic pirate queens and more undead than you can shake a stick at. Cryx is the speediest of the factions, and the most fragile (when they do get hit.) Unlike other factions, almost every one of their light jacks is an arc node (which allows warcasters to cast spells further than normal) and their helljacks are scary. Lots of sick damage potential with Cryx, but they are really the "glass cannon" of WM. Cryxian warcasters on average have more focus than their living counterparts.

Mercenaries have come into their own as a "faction" over the recent years. They don't have any elemental affinity, nothing really shines as above-the-rest in terms of troops, etc. But what they do have is the ability to do just about everything well, considering your force makeup. I would say Mercs probably have the steepest learning curve of the factions, but offer a lot of fun play-style wise.

Retribution is the newest faction, and the reigning "kings" of the advanced warjack technology. They have force fields. 'nuff said. I've not played with Ret yet, and only against a few times. They are tricksy and tend to specialize in the caster assassination game. Be wary of playing a Ret player until you're more experienced in the game.

Grailkeeper
01-17-2011, 08:47 PM
Thanks for all that, was out bid on ebay :(

I normally pick a faction by fluff and looks rather than ability. I didn't want a particularly religious faction so that ruled out menoth (my marines are a particularly devout chapter and I want something new)

The Cygnar models were the ones I liked best- particularly gun mages.

Thanks Scad man- I'll be avoiding retribution anyway as I hate elves and apple computers (possibly teh nerdiest thing I'll ever say), and seeing the two combined is a downer

Grailkeeper
01-17-2011, 08:51 PM
I'm also finding it hard to find the fluff on special characters- as they are more essential in this game than GW games thats a bit of a flaw on PP's part. Just a brief description would be enough to decide if i like their flavour

lordbubonicus
01-18-2011, 12:03 AM
I'm also finding it hard to find the fluff on special characters- as they are more essential in this game than GW games thats a bit of a flaw on PP's part. Just a brief description would be enough to decide if i like their flavour

Where are you looking, and what specifically are you looking for? History, background, character traits, current involvement, or all of the above?

Prime MK2 has fluff entries for a number of the units, but only everything that was in the original Prime. That's by no means all that each of the factions has to offer, so I'd recommend the Forces of Warmachine book. That has a fluff blurb/summary for every unit released for the faction so far.

Other than that, pretty much the entire story revolves around the warcasters and characters. Any piece of fiction in most of the books involves them.

FastEd
01-18-2011, 03:58 AM
Each of the warcasters (along with everything else) should have a bit of fluff in their entry in the core, and "forces of" book as Bubonicus said, but going into specifics you can find that the stories outside of the unit's actual entries not only involve the characters your using on the field, they all tie together to give a nice view of the current goings on in the world.

It's a little hard to find each and every story about everybody now, since the story line as been progressing since the initial release of Prime almost 8 years ago, and the Mk2 books mostly pick up where the story left off in the last book of Mk1. Rest assured, though, that there is quite a bit of fluff. Maybe not as much as 40k, but that's also been around 3 times as long, and while I love my 40k fluff, I've found the Warmachine/Hordes stories to be more relevant to what's actually happening on the table top. I would even venture to say that there is more fluff for each individual warcaster (except maybe the newest one for each faction) then there is for any character that you can actually use in 40k aside from Kommissar Gaunt who has multiple omni-buses (omni-bi?) about the Taneth first and only (which are fantastic, Abnett always entertains). That's not including the fact that a good number of them were characters in the Iron Kingdoms D&D setting that spawned Warmachine/Hordes (and should be coming out with a new edition sometime this year, working off it's own system based on the Warmachine/Hordes system instead of D&D).

lordbubonicus
01-18-2011, 10:18 AM
Good points FastEd. The comment about the progressive storyline iss actually something that popped into my head last night whilst I was trying to sleep.

Privateer Press handle the fluff in a completely different way to Games Workshop, which might be why the OP is having problems finding it. In Warmachine the story is very much an ongoing concern, with the characters evolving as more and more books are released. So it's harder to find a fluff summary that includes everything of relevance. Contrast this to the Codexes in 40K, where the characters are presented fully, and in almost an historical fashion.

Artein
01-18-2011, 03:57 PM
We are hoping for a fluff-book, which will have all fluff that was published before Mk.II.

FastEd
01-18-2011, 04:02 PM
That would be fantastic. I'd throw down for that, specifically for times when new players around my FLGS want to catch up.

lordbubonicus
01-19-2011, 10:51 AM
Yeah, it would be nice. Particularly, as you say, for new players coming into the game. It's a bit rubbish that they have to buy, or borrow, the Mk1 books if they want all of the fluff.

Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware Privateer Press have made no indication that they're even considering a fluff compilation book :-(. So I wouldn't get too excited.

GentleBen
01-19-2011, 01:39 PM
Well here's my take (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/11/warmachine-armies-of-iron-kingdoms.html) on Cygnar. Some of the other posters in here have already mentioned some great background info I skimmed over.

As for your other questions I agree that Cygnar is in no way as omnipresent in the warmachine crowd as Ultramarines are in 40k. Still, it does seem that they and Khador do tend to be played more than any other faction, at least locally.

Also if you crave Cygnar fluff there's a lot to be had in their force book. Every warcaster gets a full page of background, plus there's a lot of info on the nation and its history.

Put me down for a fluff book as well, but I think it may be seen as a bit of a risky endeavor. I think they may be underestimating the demand for it. Especially if they did it inexpensively as just a paperback novel size format. I know a lot of people who would pick it up.

James diGriz
01-20-2011, 12:00 AM
Speaking as someone who recently changed LGSes I can say that faction make up will vary on location, I went from being the only Cygnar player around to starting merc's to bring some variety to the store. No complaints playing either.

In my mind Cygnar can be summed up in a couple of major points:
* High tech -
We are starting to play with electricity when everyone else is playing with fire. We also tend toward the specialized troops and tricked out jacks (Last I checked we had the best over all mat and rat for jacks). With this goes the fact that most models are fragile.

For the most part there are 3 parts to Cygnar
a) The good guys, who occasionally have to do bad things (See Leto messing up the deal with the trolls).
b) The good guys, who do bad things for the greater good (See Caine hunt down inquisadors... see the quote for the black 13).
c) Greedy self serving butt heads - see the 4th army and the trolls.... much different than the Leto and the trolls.

The biggest way I would make the comparison between Ultra Marines and Cygnar is in the way their environments are set up. Both exist as kind of an ideal situation beset by opposing forces on all sides. Both are prosperous areas, take care of their people, and tend toward a very if we ran this place everything would be better. Cygnar is a bit different as:
a) they just kicked out the last king and he was a Jerk
b) they don't have as much control of their territory and people, and there are several schisms within their populations.

GrenAcid
01-20-2011, 03:50 PM
I have recently got bit in to WM, Cygnar and Mercs are thing Im intrested most, but I have that felling with that shooting we can do nothing to some heavy jack of Khador for example Im right or I just didnt get rules and stuff ?? We can shoot down some Jacks with Hunter?(just an example)

scadugenga
01-20-2011, 09:42 PM
I have recently got bit in to WM, Cygnar and Mercs are thing Im intrested most, but I have that felling with that shooting we can do nothing to some heavy jack of Khador for example Im right or I just didnt get rules and stuff ?? We can shoot down some Jacks with Hunter?(just an example)

Oh, there's lots you can do to Khadoran heavy jacks. It all depends on how you want to mix it up.

You have to look at things synergistically.

What makes Khadoran Jacks so mean? Brutal melee ability and massive armor/damage grids.

But they have significant weaknesses as well: Very slow (spd 4 for the most part), very easy to hit (Def 10), and generally short range. (Most of their mean jacks do not have Reach.)

You can easily counter Khadoran advantages:

Depending on the your choice of warcaster, you can either slow/impede Khadoran Jacks (Haley, Nemo) or grant bonuses to damage, extra attacks, free boosted attack rolls) (Haley, Nemo, Kraye, Darius, eStryker, Sloan)

Toss in some merc love and you get nasty combos:

Aiyanna/Holt-- A's spell causes target to take +2 damage from every attack. That's effectively reducing Khadoran armor from 20 (best in game) to 18 (standard heavy)

Gorman di Wulf: His rust bomb attack causes the target to have -2 armor.

Combine the two mercs, and you just turned an arm 20 jack into an arm 16 jack.

Now, let's look at some of the ranged jack pain:

Cygnar:

Hunter: light jack, armor piercing, rof 1: That's pow 6 vs. arm 10 normally. Taking Aiyanna/Wulf into consideration, you're Pow 8 vs Arm 9. Not too shabby.

Defender: Heavy Jack, best ranged gun in the game. Rng 16 Pow 15. Okay normally vs Khador. But with the merc duo, suddenly you're Pow 17 vs Arm 18. Again, that's going to hurt.

Cyclone: Heavy chaingun jack. Sure, not much to think about stock, but with the merc combo, you're Pow 14 vs Arm 18, 2d3 times. It definitely can add up (and drain you of focus too...)

Merc:

Mule: My favorite ranged utility heavy merc jack. Massive pain on the cannon. Same damage as a Defender, but it's critical effect rules. Nothing says loving like throwing your opponent. If you get lucky, it'll hit something it shouldn't and boosted you can do 4d6 + 17 (Aiyanna/wulf combo bonus) vs Arm 18. You're opponent will potentially tear up. :)

Mariner: Not so good as the Mule--you need lots of sea dogs nearby just in case.

And those are just the ranged jacks. You can have just as much fun with the melee ones:

You want to mess up his day? Take Nemo, add the +2 str spell (both P and E Nemo have iterations of this) and put it on a Centurion (reach) with the A/W merc combo and you have a 22 str/pow attack vs. arm 18. You don't even want to boost damage--you just want more attacks.

Or the Hammersmith: 2 str/pow 21 attacks vs. arm 18 (due to the merc combo)

The variations are out there---let your imagination run wild.

Never put too much fear in your mind about Khador's heavy armor. It's always capable of being dealt with. :)

GrenAcid
01-21-2011, 03:52 PM
I dont like sound of it....its like in M:tG, person who made most powerfull nasty combo win, nothing with tactic on battlefield and happy fireing form trench to trench. Im gonna suck in another game...ehh typical.

Can you tell me If Capitan Kara Solan and her theme force is ok to start with? Im in love in Gun Mages so wanna give them some kick from warcaster. BTW thx for reply.

scadugenga
01-21-2011, 08:36 PM
I dont like sound of it....its like in M:tG, person who made most powerfull nasty combo win, nothing with tactic on battlefield and happy fireing form trench to trench. Im gonna suck in another game...ehh typical.

Can you tell me If Capitan Kara Solan and her theme force is ok to start with? Im in love in Gun Mages so wanna give them some kick from warcaster. BTW thx for reply.

All wargames have combos--WM just kicks it up a notch.

Any theme list is going to be harder for a new player to start with, as you're limited with your force choices.

Kara's may be a bit more forgiving because she's such a shooter.

Though if you're going to go deep into the tier with Kara, you're not going to get much out of your gun mages.

Caine (cygnar) and Ashlynn (merc) are the two warcasters who's tiers pimp out the gun mages.

I think Caine actually works better with gun mages, as he can give them snipe, allowing them to free up their rune shot choice with either the thunderbolt or brutal shot options.

Ashlynn's tier list lets her take gun mages as merc units, so it opens up the field a bit more to non-arcane gun mage options.

It all really depends on what faction you like more, and what model you're drawn to. (Kara kicks severe arse, btw. That boomstick of hers hurts!)

You'll really only get 1 gun mage unit in a 35pt Kara tier if you're going all the way to T4.

FastEd
01-22-2011, 06:29 AM
Don't get to discouraged by the whole ability/spell combo bit, it isn't all the game is about. Sure, it can help, but more often then not it's there to assist in your chances of pulling off a maneuver or strategy then just bowl over your opponent's army. While some people do try to buff something to levels that allow it to walk through the center of your army, racking up the body count along the way, lists that function that way tend to be one-trick ponies. If you take a second to sit back, glance your opponent's cards and think about what your opponent has just done and why you will probably pick up what they are going for. From there it's just a matter of denying them the chance to enact their master plan. For instance, the last time I used Saeryn's (Legion of Everblight) feat (models in my battlegroup can't be targeted by melee for one round) after running my heavy beasts forward my opponent looked me in the eye, applauded my bait, then told me he wasn't going to fall for that. Then he backed his army up...and I proceeded to feel far less clever.

Dyrnwyn
01-25-2011, 06:38 PM
I dont like sound of it....its like in M:tG, person who made most powerfull nasty combo win, nothing with tactic on battlefield and happy fireing form trench to trench. Im gonna suck in another game...ehh typical.

From what I've found thus far, Warmahordes is quite different from MtG, because in magic, if your combo is 'these three cards and 5 mana on the table and I win' you can build your deck chock full of cheap 'search your library' cards and insure your combo is in effect by turn 5.

Warmahordes doesn't have that kind of 'hah! combo goes off, you never saw it coming, and you're dead now!' that Magic has. All your opponent's models are on the table, you can ask to see their cards and what they do, and you should grasp what kind of combos they are capable of with a glance and a moment of thought. Moreover, if you can see that one or two models are going to be essential to his combo - you can kill them first, before he gets it off. In addition, the vagaries of dice and range can ensure that despite setting up the combo, you can still see it fail.

While Warmahordes is much more about unit synergy than 40k is, it isn't entirely combo driven like Magic is, and the combos aren't hidden face down in the opponent's deck, but out in the open, before the first turn even starts.

Grailkeeper
01-26-2011, 03:16 AM
Thanks for all the help,

some models I really like are the black 13th mage team? they are a character unit - I dunno what that means- can you tell me what they are like cos they look great.

Also what is a solo? Another one I quite like is the ragman mercanarie- is he compatabile with Cygnar/ what does he do?

lordbubonicus
01-26-2011, 07:22 AM
No problem, I'm always happy to help out. To answer your questions in turn:

A character unit just means that you are only allowed one example of that unit in your army. The same goes for character solos, character warjacks/warbeasts etc. All 'character' army list entries are denoted by "FA:C" (i.e. Field Allowance: Character).

The Black 13th are generally considered to be an excellent choice for most Cygnar armies. They have a range of powerful abilities, and are fairly versatile. They're also able to deal with a large variety of threats that many of the other units in the Cygnar army cannot.

A solo is a single model, that activates individually and isn't attached to any unit, warjack/warbeast or warcaster/warlock. It's basically a unit of a single model. Solos often have specialised roles and can be fairly powerful.

We don't know anything about the Ragman beyond what the model looks like and the small blurb that accompanies him. He's from the upcoming "Warmachine: Wrath" book, which is the first expansion book for Warmachine Mk2 and is going back to Privateer Press' usual model of giving all factions an update at the same time.

FastEd
01-26-2011, 09:01 AM
Well, apparently Bubonicus has it covered.

To expand on the 'Character' bit, it represents specific named units/models. The Black 13th, for instance, has three members all each with their own name (Watts, Lynch, and Ryan), where as a normal unit of Arcane Tempest Gun Mages represents any unit of that type anywhere, thus they aren't named. Generally characters are effective, but you tend to pay a premium for their expanded or more powerful abilities. Of note is the difference between Field Allowance: 1 (FA: 1) and FA: C, as in a game large enough to use two (or more) Warcasters in your army you can field multiples of the FA: 1 unit (Number of warcasters X field allowance), but still only one copy of an FA: C unit/model as it is unique.

Hope I added a little, since Bubonicus pretty much covered everything, and correctly to boot.

DarkLink
01-30-2011, 04:05 PM
Black 13th is awesome. I started warmachine not too long ago with Kara, and it's a lot of fun. I use a unit of Stormblades backed up by a Cyclone, Defender, and the Black 13th. The cyclone is invaluable in my limited experience, as its templates can dissuade all but the toughest of infantry from charging at you, giving you an extra turn or two of shooting. And the B13 are great at picking off key enemy models like solos, as well as giving you a means to bypass concealment and stealth.

And with Kara, get Rienholdt. Always.



If you like Kara, I'd get her, Rienholdt, the plastic heavy jack kit (which can be magnetized to be a Defender, Cyclone or Ironclad), the Black 13th, and go from there. See what other Cygnar units you like and add them in as you go.

thetallest
02-01-2011, 03:40 PM
Heya Grailkeeper

I'm going to largely echo what the others have said - the main source of the fluff are the army books - so I'd make a point of trying to track down the cygnar book and have a look at it. You can also go on Privateer Press' forums - the Cygnar faction forum will likely be able to give you a quick rundown on the different casters and their fluff.

Be careful about comparing the warcasters in warmachine to special characters in 40k/Fantasy - they don't translate at all - I would be more inclined to think of them as the King in chess - they are the lynchpin in your army and need to be protected at all costs during the game (that's not to say that they can't swing in to deliver the beat-down - more that if they die you lose)

DarkLink
02-01-2011, 10:26 PM
Right. Warmachine is like chess, where you're trying to corner the other person's king while protecting your own. Taking out every one of your opponent's models is a perfectly viable way of doing that, but you can also pull a clever move and win without significant casualties.

40k sets the kings aside, and the two armies just go at it. Special characters are your Queens, normally.

And that's probably about as far as the metaphor can be streched.

doom-kitten
02-14-2011, 03:19 AM
Kara Sloan is my main warcaster, as for gun mages I'd rather trenchers. Smoke bombs rule, they block LOS and you can't shoot or charge what you can't see.

mazgier
02-14-2011, 06:00 AM
Kara Sloan is my main warcaster, as for gun mages I'd rather trenchers. Smoke bombs rule, they block LOS and you can't shoot or charge what you can't see.
Except, they don't block LOS to Trenchers themselves. So one turn later - the Trenchers are gone = no smoke bombs and no LOS blocking either.

doom-kitten
02-14-2011, 01:00 PM
This is true but remember those Trenchers will benifit from a Def of 17 if dug in or a Def of 15 due to concealment so they'll be pretty stubborn and difficult to shift. If you really wanna be an *** use Major Victoria Haley and pop Deceleration every turn. Trenchers with a Def 19 when dug is in a pain in the rear my Khador bud shoots very intense eye lasers when I do this, against Cryx anything that cause Corrison will eat the trenchers alive but it's amusing to watch then throw their entire army at one unit. Ohhh and try a Cyclone or two behind them, place the Dual Covering Fire templates before dropping the smoke make sure you place them infront of the Trenchers and spread out for full coverag, enemies charging with get chaingunned then have to deal with Def 17 infantry of course if they hit the poor trencher gets creamed. XD

DarkLink
02-14-2011, 06:25 PM
Plus, one turn is all Sloan needs to whipe out half your army:D

doom-kitten
02-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Ah good old Firing Squad XD

Archetype-
02-26-2011, 03:19 PM
Since this seems to be a huge Cygnar discussion thread, I guess I'll post my queries here.

I've gotten a couple of games in with my starter box, both losses. First time against Cryx, I underestimated the speed of a Slayer and promptly got a few tons of Helljack in Stryker's grill. He surprisingly survived the initial attacks, so I tried a last ditch effort to give ol' Deneg the Quake Hammer to the face from Beardly the Ironclad. The hammer hit home, but the Falcon Punch Follow-up missed and Deney survived. I belatedly use Invincibility and take more Slayer punches in the face. ARM 21 obviously did not save him. :p

Second was a five-way free for all, basically a huge King of the HIll. The forces are myself as Stryker, the same Cryx player as Denegra, a Circle player as some desert-faring dude with a stick, a Legion of Everblight player as Big Dragonthing Thagrosh, and a Trollblood as a... well, a Troolblood. Second turn, after putting some damage on a Troll beastie with the Charger (the Lancer was just out of range for an Arcane Bolt), the Circle player sends a Saytr on a freaky streak around the wall I was hiding behind (at least a foot and a half, I swear) and proceeds to donkey punch Stryker unto oblivion. Circle dude wasn't expecting it either. I was just gonna stay back and let the others fight it out, then advance when they were weakened.

I've been looking at the Warcasters, and the only ones I really don't like are.... Darius and both versions of Caine. I don't want a 'jack heavy force, and I want more than a couple pistols and a cool trench coat. I'm really digging the look and feel of both versions of Haley and all the buffs/debuffs she can churn out, Sloan for a truly menacing barrage (just watch as the dice abandon me on feat turn :D ), and Kraye's mobility. Oh, forgot Stryker's all-rounder appeal (when in doubt, go with Stryker?). Haley's probably my favorite, though.

What seems to go well with pHaley and eHaley, though? I'll most likely be getting a plastic heavy and Thorn for 'jacks, and a Squire for a solo (nine focus for three turns? hell yeah!) regardless of anything else. Still stuck on infantry, though the Stormblades, Long Gunners, and Trenchers appeal to me most.

Wow, friggin' wall 'o text. Guess I should stop for now. Sorry! :p

-Archetype

scadugenga
02-26-2011, 04:00 PM
Archetype,

Sounds like you had a few good learning lessons. Losses generally teach you more than wins, in my experience.

Stryker's a good all-around caster, but he's not going to be a game-winner all on his own for you, unlike Caine, Sloan, or (in some cases) Nemo.

Haley has some really good combos and potential, and works very well with Defenders, Thorn (duh :)) and long gunners.

But she's even squishier than Stryker.

First rule of WM/H Club: Protect your warcaster/warlock. Unless he's mean enough to take a slayer apart in one turn (he's usually not) you don't want to let him get charged.

When you find yourself with an ironclad in melee range of an enemy caster--do not hit them with the quake hammer first--use tremor (it's boostable) and knock them down. Then hit them with everything else--auto hits in melee kill casters dead dead dead. (Unless you're trying to hit Magnus...)

DarkLink
02-26-2011, 04:46 PM
Yeah, always find out what in your opponent's army can kill your caster from a distance, and then never, ever let it get LOS.

eHaley with ATGMs is absurdly good. In fact, one of our more experienced local players likes to say that if you lose with eHaley, it's because you suck. Temporal Acceleration + Deadeye means that you can knock down the majority of the opponent's army with Thunderbolt, then Temporal Shift prevents your opponent from doing anything useful with anything that got knocked down, as they have to sacrifice both their move and action in order to stand up thanks to the feat.

And as scadugenga said, there are lots of little tricks that can make all the difference. Know what everything does, and how those things can be combined.

Archetype-
02-26-2011, 04:56 PM
Archetype,

Sounds like you had a few good learning lessons. Losses generally teach you more than wins, in my experience.

Losses tend to be just as fun for me, too. Especially the nail-bitingly close ones.


Stryker's a good all-around caster, but he's not going to be a game-winner all on his own for you, unlike Caine, Sloan, or (in some cases) Nemo.

I figured as much anyways. For the (rather short) time he was alive, I used him more for buffs than anything else. Never fired his gun, only got to swing Quicksilver once (at that damn slayer... and he predictably missed). I prefer my leaders to bring something to the table aside from their hitting power. The rest of the army can do the hitting just as well. :)


Haley has some really good combos and potential, and works very well with Defenders, Thorn (duh :)) and long gunners.

But she's even squishier than Stryker.

Heh, looking at it all.... I can see it now. And she definitely is more on the caster side of warcaster. The second shot of the Long Gunner's Dual Shot wouldn't be affected by Deadeye, though. There's still the good ol' Combined Ranged Attack.


First rule of WM/H Club: Protect your warcaster/warlock. Unless he's mean enough to take a slayer apart in one turn (he's usually not) you don't want to let him get charged.

I thought it was "you don't talk about WM/H Club?" Nah, just kiddin'. And I sincerely doubt any Cygnar casters can dismantle a jack in one turn.... well, short of eStryker cutting himself to boost his sword-poking power. That's a one-time thing, though.


When you find yourself with an ironclad in melee range of an enemy caster--do not hit them with the quake hammer first--use tremor (it's boostable) and knock them down. Then hit them with everything else--auto hits in melee kill casters dead dead dead. (Unless you're trying to hit Magnus...)

To be honest, I did not think of that until about an hour after the game ended. First time I pull that one off, I'm changing Beardly's (my sole Ironclad) name to Garland. :cool:

And what does Magnus do when knocked down, breakdance? :confused:

-Archetype

EDIT:


eHaley with ATGMs is absurdly good. In fact, one of our more experienced local players likes to say that if you lose with eHaley, it's because you suck. Temporal Acceleration + Deadeye means that you can knock down the majority of the opponent's army with Thunderbolt, then Temporal Shift prevents your opponent from doing anything useful with anything that got knocked down, as they have to sacrifice both their move and action in order to stand up thanks to the feat.

Wow, didn't even think of that one. Full ATGM unit plus the attachment, and marshal a Cyclone for 2d3 POW12 Thunderbolt shots.... oww.

scadugenga
02-26-2011, 05:29 PM
Heh, looking at it all.... I can see it now. And she definitely is more on the caster side of warcaster. The second shot of the Long Gunner's Dual Shot wouldn't be affected by Deadeye, though. There's still the good ol' Combined Ranged Attack.

Well, long gunners are best used in CRA's to make best use of their damage output and hitting potential. A full squad of 10 shooting in two groups of 5 = 4 Pow 15 shots a turn. Pretty spiffy.




I thought it was "you don't talk about WM/H Club?" Nah, just kiddin'. And I sincerely doubt any Cygnar casters can dismantle a jack in one turn.... well, short of eStryker cutting himself to boost his sword-poking power. That's a one-time thing, though.

Darius w/squire (for extra focus) can put some serious hurt out. Cast full throttle and you still have 5 boosted melee attack rolls @ Pow 15.

Siege on a feat puts remarkable pain. (AP Pow 14 on first melee attack, and 6 more attacks for extra focus at Pow 14)

Sloan with Reinholt & feat is disgusting. Sloan herself is just wrong. But in such a good way.

eCaine on a feat turn will put out sick damage (cumulative +1 damage per spellstorm pistol attack, 2 base, + 6 focus (7 w/squire)

You definitely have the options for paingiving in the Cygnar caster list. It's just not as obvious as Khador's Butcher, etc. :)


And what does Magnus do when knocked down, breakdance? :confused:

He cannot be targetted by ranged and magic attacks when he's knocked down. It's a nice bennie.

Archetype-
02-26-2011, 05:45 PM
Well, long gunners are best used in CRA's to make best use of their damage output and hitting potential. A full squad of 10 shooting in two groups of 5 = 4 Pow 15 shots a turn. Pretty spiffy.

I agree, they kinda need it to reliably hurt almost anything. A sniper unit, they are not.


Darius w/squire (for extra focus) can put some serious hurt out. Cast full throttle and you still have 5 boosted melee attack rolls @ Pow 15.

Siege on a feat puts remarkable pain. (AP Pow 14 on first melee attack, and 6 more attacks for extra focus at Pow 14)

Sloan with Reinholt & feat is disgusting. Sloan herself is just wrong. But in such a good way.

eCaine on a feat turn will put out sick damage (cumulative +1 damage per spellstorm pistol attack, 2 base, + 6 focus (7 w/squire)

You definitely have the options for paingiving in the Cygnar caster list. It's just not as obvious as Khador's Butcher, etc. :)

Forgot about eCaine, Sloan, and Siege. Darius is another "Huh, now what the crap didn't I think of that?" things. I need to remember: Cygnar is all about science, and science is subtle. :p

Isn't Reinholt that goblin dude who provides an extra shot for a model's gun? Probably won't end up using him, though. Good as they may be, I'd rather not use the mercs. Can't nail down exactly why, it just doesn't.... I don't see myself doing it.


He cannot be targetted by ranged and magic attacks when he's knocked down. It's a nice bennie.

...This brings back painful memories of a few times in WoW when I was taking on hunters. Is he dead? No, he was faking.

Hey, that doesn't prevent him from getting charged does it? If not.... Mwahahahahahhaa.

scadugenga
02-26-2011, 07:34 PM
Isn't Reinholt that goblin dude who provides an extra shot for a model's gun? Probably won't end up using him, though. Good as they may be, I'd rather not use the mercs. Can't nail down exactly why, it just doesn't.... I don't see myself doing it.

I was a Merc player before anything else (back in '03 when the Mags "box" set was available only at gencon, and then sold in a plastic baggie--kinda like gamer crack) so I had merc experience in my veins before I branched out into Cygnar. I think I actually got the cygnar box set as a prize for winning a local WM tourney.

Anyway--loved Caine from the get go, so I branched out into Cygnar when I felt more like being "the good (ish) guy." :) But the sick things you can synergistically do with mercs in a Cygnar list is truly frightening.


Hey, that doesn't prevent him from getting charged does it? If not.... Mwahahahahahhaa.

Nope, I believe he can still be charged, but I don't have the rb w/me at the moment, so I can't tell you with 100% certainty.

DarkLink
02-26-2011, 09:57 PM
Wow, didn't even think of that one. Full ATGM unit plus the attachment, and marshal a Cyclone for 2d3 POW12 Thunderbolt shots.... oww.

Yeah. It works well with Sloan, too, as Sloan is a fantastic assassination caster. Deadeye plus boosted attacks on her feat turn means your gunmages are rolling 4d6, so your chances of rolling a crit are very good. And all you need to do is knock down a few key models to get LOS and the enemy warcaster gets hammered by Sloan and a pair of Defenders:D. PP just needs to release their plastic ATGMs so I can buy them.

Archetype-
02-26-2011, 10:54 PM
I knew some models could get 4d6 to damage, but I never considered it could also apply to hit. My already high opinion of Sloan is getting higher... Say, is she considered part of her own battlegroup with regards to Firing Squad? Could a 'jack in her battlegroup trigger an out-of-activation shot from Spitfire?

Seriously, that's just one of the coolest looking guns I've ever seen. I've seen some really spiffy guns in my gaming experience, but Spitfire ranks in the top 5 for sure. I mean, it looks like the bullets it fires are the size of Coke cans.

scadugenga
02-26-2011, 11:46 PM
I knew some models could get 4d6 to damage, but I never considered it could also apply to hit. My already high opinion of Sloan is getting higher... Say, is she considered part of her own battlegroup with regards to Firing Squad? Could a 'jack in her battlegroup trigger an out-of-activation shot from Spitfire?

Seriously, that's just one of the coolest looking guns I've ever seen. I've seen some really spiffy guns in my gaming experience, but Spitfire ranks in the top 5 for sure. I mean, it looks like the bullets it fires are the size of Coke cans.

Yup, she counts as part of her battlegroup. So, with Reinholt, on her feat turn, she can pump out 3 boosted attack Pow 12 + 4d6 damage shots in one turn. Toss Ayanna & Holt into the mix to mark a "must kill target and you can add +2 damage to every shot against that target.

Mean enough to make Khador weep.

DarkLink
02-27-2011, 12:23 AM
Only two can be boosted. Her third shot is taken outside of her activation, and so she can't boost it.

Archetype-
02-27-2011, 11:02 PM
Okay, I've been doing a bit of thinking and plotting ("Oh no, he's at it again.." the world says). I'm likin' the look of Reinholdt a bit more, and he seems to have a pretty spiffy looking coat so that's a plus. I've managed to hash together what I think is a good starting point for a Sloan barrage. I think I'll have a much easier time using her feat than pStryker's, as it's a lot more straightforward and..... well, offensive.

-Captain Kara Sloan

-Defender
-Defender
-Hunter (this one is for the JC)

-ATGM
-The Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team (AKA, the B13s)

-Journeyman Warcaster
-Squire
-Reinholdt

It's just one shy of 35. My only real concern is aside from the Defenders (who are really there for the big guns) and the B13s (who really use their guns, not their fists), there's no real threats in melee combat. I could drop the JC and Hunter for something like Stormblades or Sword Knights. There's one other Cygnar player around these parts, and to my knowledge he's more melee-based. But hey, I think it's a nice little starting point for.... experimentation. All in the name of science, of course.:cool:

Say, can units target multiple models that aren't enemy units (e.g., a unit of ATGM shooting Thunderbolt rounds at two different 'jacks/solos blocking the enemy 'caster/warlock)?

-Archetype

DarkLink
02-27-2011, 11:44 PM
Rienholdt is definitely a must for Sloan. Her gun is half the reason you take her, and reinholdt makes her gun twice as awesome.

I don't think you really need the Journeyman in that list, if you can find something better to spend those points on. With that list you're basically spending 3pts for Arcane Shield. Arcane Shield is nice, but you can probably find a better deal somewhere else.

I wouldn't worry too much about lack of melee, since you're going to be trying to shoot your opponent to death before he reaches you anyways. As soon as your opponent gets close, pop your feat and deadeye the ATGMs. They can then knock down key models in your opponent's army, get Sloan and the Defenders LOS on the 'caster, and let the big guns do the rest of the work.


And, yes, you can split your fire how you want. Each individual models can hit a different unit.

Archetype-
02-28-2011, 12:09 AM
I was kinda on the fence with the JC to begin with. The big reason I was considering him/her to begin with was the a way to bring the Hunter to the table without taxing Kara's focus any more than it already is. Still, I'm already taking the Squire to help with that little detail. I guess I can put some of those points into the ATGM UA for extra anti-stealth and to marshal that Hunter. The last couple points will probably get filled by a GMCA, just for funsies.

EDIT: Or I can just stick the HUnter in Kara's battlegroup so her feat can fully affect it as well. Would be handy to have against 'casters like Karchev or Thaggy. I do expect to encounter those two specifically at some point, but of course anything big is something Hunters like shooting.

Pretty much everyone around here is gearing for melee anyways. Might be nice being the only player who brings the guns to a big sword/axe/claw fight.

That is a bit of a relief to know I can split fire with a single unit. That's definitely gonna come in handy on multiple occasions. Thanks for the heads up.

-Archetype

scadugenga
02-28-2011, 08:04 PM
If you're worried about melee, you can also swap out a defender for a Cyclone and set up area denial corridors with the two templates.

Archetype-
02-28-2011, 09:48 PM
That's a good thought. I'll have to play around with it a bit and see what works. This makes me rather glad that the plastic 'jacks for Cygnar are the two pig shooty heavies and the Ironclad. This means I can just magnitize the arms.

Funny thing is, the Circle dude (who also has a Karchev 'jack-heavy force) was showing me page 5 of Mk2 Prime. Aside from telling you to not be afraid to play aggressively, he said it meant that he'd never buy a model that wasn't metal. After skimming page 5 myself, I saw no such thing saying that you had to have full metal. Didn't feel like telling him that. I'm just gonna grin as I build, magnetize, paint, and field my interchangeable plastic heavy 'jacks of SCIENCE!!

I'm guessing the damage on those AoE covering fires can't be boosted?

scadugenga
02-28-2011, 10:03 PM
Correct, since the damage occurs outside of the Cyclone's activation, it cannot be boosted.

However, Pow 12 should be enough to kill any single wound infantry that contacts it. So you should still be good.

Archetype-
02-28-2011, 10:27 PM
Exactly what I'd expect from a friggin' Gatling gun, mowing down the dudes in their bunches. I don't know how much infantry I can expect to face around here, as most (especially the Circle, Legion, and Trollblood players) seem to be focusing on 'beasts and 'jacks. Still, experimenting in wargames never really hurt anyone.

Besides, a Cyclone would seem to do very well if marshaled to a ATGM UA. Lots and lots of Gun Mage bullets! :D

DarkLink
03-01-2011, 12:46 AM
The Cyclone is great at controlling the board. It just doesn't directly benefit much from Sloans feat, so it might be better to save it for higher point games. The nice thing, though, is that a Cyclone doesn't normally require any focus from Sloan to operate, so you can fill up on Defenders and Hunters. It also guarantees you'll get those extra shots from the feat off, because you can just plink at low Def targets with the Cyclone.

FastEd
03-01-2011, 05:21 AM
That's a good thought. I'll have to play around with it a bit and see what works. This makes me rather glad that the plastic 'jacks for Cygnar are the two pig shooty heavies and the Ironclad. This means I can just magnitize the arms.

Funny thing is, the Circle dude (who also has a Karchev 'jack-heavy force) was showing me page 5 of Mk2 Prime. Aside from telling you to not be afraid to play aggressively, he said it meant that he'd never buy a model that wasn't metal. After skimming page 5 myself, I saw no such thing saying that you had to have full metal. Didn't feel like telling him that. I'm just gonna grin as I build, magnetize, paint, and field my interchangeable plastic heavy 'jacks of SCIENCE!!


Fun fact, the Defender is actually pretty good in melee. Mat 6 is plenty to hit most models, and it's P+S isn't bad plus the hammer has it's own ability.

The all metal thing was an old page 5 bit, back in the first edition rule book when the company was just getting started. It was also, as it turns out, the same page 5 that gave Warmachine a bad rep among war gamers because a few peopled used to as an excuse to be jackasses. The new page 5 gets the idea across FAR better then the old one did, and as far as the metal model thing goes it was really just meant to foster a certain attitude and make a name for Privateer by standing out from Games Workshop. Since that's not really an issue these days it's rather silly to hold onto such an ideal, especially an ideal that didn't entirely make sense in the first place since by that time the casting quality of plastics was just as good as metals. Making plastics has also helped Privateer keep overall costs at roughly the same baseline as they have been since the game got going over half a decade ago.