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Brycec13
01-17-2011, 12:30 PM
I decided to raise my points barrier to 2500 from 1500 and wanted something that had acceptable synergy but wasn't completely reliant on it. Plus I am fed up with DL failure. I want to see what problems may arise from this list and get some thoughts.

HQ 300
Vect
Haemonculus w Liquifier

Troops 415
8 Wracks with liquifier
Raider with DL
2x5 Warrior squad with Blaster
Venom with SC

Elite 519
3x4 Trueborn with 4 Blasters
Venom with SC

Fast Attack 808
5 Beastmasters
10 Khymerae
1 Clawed Fiend
4 Razorwing Flock
2x10 Scourges with 2 haywire blasters and 2 heat lances

Heavy 455
Voidraven NS FF 1 monscythe, 2 necrotoxin, 1 shatterfield
Ravager NS FF
Talos Pain Engine TL liquifier gun, TL haywire blaster, CCW

Total 2497

jorz192
01-17-2011, 01:24 PM
I am not sure because I haven't had many chances to play my DE, but I am thinking chain flails might be
better than the twin-linked liquifier gun

Rolling two dice and picking the highest for the Talos close combat attacks sounds extremely useful to me.

Brycec13
01-17-2011, 02:19 PM
The chain flails were nice when i used them, but the liquifier ignoring cover and rerolling to wound is nice. Plus with the extra cc weapon the Talos has three attacks on the charge minimum.

newtoncain
01-17-2011, 10:33 PM
Nice list, I just think your light on troop choices @ 2500. 8 wacks and 2 x 5 man squads just wont cut in any objective base game. That is if your oppenent has some light on upstairs.:eek:
A good rule of thumb is 1 troop per 500pts.

YOu could easily dump a true born and scourge squad to get more troops.

L'Etat Cest Moi
01-18-2011, 05:08 PM
I agree, in fact I would say drop both Scourge units and just take troops with those points.

I don't see the use for the Talos, as the Vect deathstar is more mobile and deadly.

The big issue I see is a lack of mobility. At 2000 I run 10 vehicles, at 2500 you have 4. Dark Eldar can not foot slog, they will be shot up and die, and when you have so few troops, most of which are squishy, you can not take that damage. Cut out some unnessesary units (beastmasters and scourges in my opinion) and get more troops in dedicated transports. Because you have a haemonculi you might as well take more wracks.

The way I see it, you should show up out of the warp and smash your opponent befoe they know what is coming. The way things are now they will have plenty of time to prepare. If you up the speed you can have your entire army within 6" of their deployment zone on turn one (especially with Vect). Opponents are forced to reserve everything or deal with a ton on DE in their face turn one.

I also would take a razorwing over a voidraven, you cut down on points and get a more effective unit.

Brycec13
01-18-2011, 08:20 PM
First off i have 8 Vehicles and th eplan with objective based games is contesting for objectives. So far my 5 man troops have lasted in objective based maps.
IMHO i think scourges are more useful that troops in a larger points battle. move twelve, fire at the vehicles and then they aren't shooting at me. Dark lances are flakey and haywire blasters with heat lances are a much more potent combo.

The Talos draws fire and is both a delay tactic and AI.

The voidraven is superior to the razorwing although i agree with the points cut down. Playtesting has proven the Void over the Razorwing everytime for me.
I appreciate the thoughts so far and I love wracks but I hate their lack of flexibility.

thecactusman17
01-19-2011, 01:00 AM
Voidravens seem the superior choice to me too at 2500, but I have to agree with the previous poster about troops. Especially being that they are in Venoms, and without the range-reducing power of a nightshield. Those guys are going to be in big trouble if anything decides it wants to prevent you from scoring or get several easy killpoints.

L'Etat Cest Moi
01-19-2011, 08:59 AM
What armies and how skilled of opponents have you been playing? I don't know anyone who in a tournament wouldn't target first turn a troop of 5 in an AV 10. They could be eliminated turn one by two squads of blolterr spam.

While the +1 S of the void lance is nice the fact that you ahve to pay for missiles is preventing you from getting more troops. Plus after you drop a pie plate of two your opponent will only be able to think about them thus making it a fantastic distraction.

Brycec13
01-19-2011, 12:17 PM
I have played a wide assortment of armies on most skill levels. The troops are vulnerable but its how you play that ultimately affects survivability. My armies haywires are designed to keep three vehicles from shooting and I still have the other two heavies to disrupt whatever. The trueborn are more of a threat to most players than the troops up front.
The voidraven has served me well so far and 40 points don't hurt me too much.
I appreciate the input so far and I will play with my points to try and incorporate another troop

somerandomdude
01-19-2011, 02:03 PM
The voidraven is superior to the razorwing although i agree with the points cut down. Playtesting has proven the Void over the Razorwing everytime for me.

That's because it has more to it, because you've spent more points on it.

You need more troops, plain and simple. You aren't survivable enough to contest every objective except one AND keep all of your troops alive. Assuming you are moving Vect forward with the Wracks, that's one troop down (whether you leave the Wracks in the Raider or not). Those two Venoms will not survive on their own.

You say it's all in how you play them? That's true. If an opponent sees what you have for troops in objective games, he'll kill the troops and know the worst he can do is draw. The Trueborn are only more threatening to your opponent if he plays without the scenario in mind. Spending two turns to kill your troops (maybe not even that) will make it much easier to worry about the rest of your army.

Scourges are fantastic, but 10 man squads are not necessary, especially if you are using Haywire Blasters. Drop down to five in both squads. With a 36" threat range you can shut down things easily, and that's where the strength is with the HB. Combining them with a close range weapon is not a good idea.

Why do you have the Talos? That one extra HB is nice, but otherwise he's not even threatening until turn three against an attentive opponent, and with the amount of missile launchers some armies have available he will not last long when he does become a threat.

Also, going back to Vect, Vect + Wracks is not that great of a combo. He needs someone who will be able to soak up attacks as he carves through elite units, and that's Wyches. One of your troops should be 9 Wyches with a Shardnet in a Raider.

And don't try to say that you're planning to contest every objective (less one) when you have no Shock Prows. At all. Start tank shocking and then you can talk about contesting.

It seems like you have a lot of things that find advantages in WWP lists, have you given that any thought?

BlindGunn
01-19-2011, 02:04 PM
I would perhaps suggest a Webway Portal for the Haemonculus and have the Talos to come out of it. It would increase the chances of the Talos coming out alive and doing something. However, if you're counting it as a distraction unit only, I would leave the upgrades off and spend the points (as few as they are) elsewhere.

I also think you're pretty light in troop choices. Myself, I would drop one unit of Trueborn as you already have lots of AT in the list & get another Warrior squad. However, if you've been making it work for you - keep on going! I see Dark Eldar as being very dependent on a player's style of play in deciding your unit options.

Brycec13
01-20-2011, 09:23 AM
Reserves for troops means hopefully bottom of turn two for troops, maybe even later. When I played my test version of this against blood angels I won easily on objective without issues again. That's because he went first and when I came in two tanks couldn't shoot, one was destroyed and the other didn't have los. My blaster tb did wonderful against his assault guys and my talks and beast did the rest while venom were laying down fire. The talos earned its points back as well.
The voidraven has better lances and a mine the missiles are options. Even base I consider it better as I primarily use it for at.
You don't need shock prows to be effective.

Unzuul the Lascivious
01-20-2011, 09:53 AM
It depends who you're playing really. Get more troop though. Drop the Talos, or at least have it basic, as has been suggested. It's a fire draw, they're not likely to get a look in against anyone decent. You do need more troops though. I think the Wracks are over priced for what they are. More Kabalites in Raiders and/or Venoms. Or get some Hellions, they're fun, especially out of a WWP. I stun clawed Ragnar the other night and finished him off, my opponent was almost in tears! I got no arguments with the Voidraven, they're pretty sound. I'm undecided about Vect. He's trés expensive. If anyone has a good shot at drawing the most fire away from your other vehicles, it's the Dias, so a full frontal shafting into your opponent should draw the heavy vehicle fire - if you've popped lots with DL (and I KNOW what you mean about DL failure!) this should cause major problems for your opponent. Consider Trueborn with him - if the Dais survives a round of firepower, the Shard carbines will be super tasty alongside blasters and splinter cannons? I could ramble on.

It does seem from your responses that you've already made your mind up about your list though! There are elements of it that I think will be useful against Imperial Guard though, especially Vect...

somerandomdude
01-20-2011, 10:22 AM
You don't need shock prows to be effective.

That's true. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've tank shocked in my two years of playing Chaos.

But for reliably contesting objectives, I think it makes a huge difference for Dark Eldar. When someone has a ring of models 7" in diameter around an objective, they don't have to worry about you contesting it. Tank shock through that group and land within 3" of the objective, and you don't have to worry about those rings. With Marines tank shocking is hit-and-miss because of the 12" range, but tank shocking 24"? Yes, that's very nice.

Which is easier, killing a 10 man marine squad with shooting, or moving your Raider 24" to auto-contest? One shot with a bolter (if you're careful and pay attention to your opponent's squad layout) will not reliably do any damage to your Raider.



If you primarily use the Voidraven for AT, then yes it's better (and I would never make an argument for otherwise).

SaganGree
01-20-2011, 10:55 AM
I think people are forgetting a major flaw with Shock prows... you still have a front armor of 10. What this means is that against any Marine or unit with a krak grenade... or heaven forbid a melta... and they will have a large percentage chance of stopping you cold.

50% chance to glance/pen with a krak - 100% chance to glance/pen with a melta
glance - 50% chance of stopping/destroying the vehicle (assuming you still have your lance)
Pen - 82% chance of stopping/destroying the vehicle (assuming you still have your lance)

Not exactly something I would count on working too often...

somerandomdude
01-20-2011, 11:17 AM
No one is forgetting a major flaw with Shock Prows, people are forgetting a major part of the Death or Glory rules.

While Kraks can hurt, meltas are a non-issue. The only models that can choose to perform a Death or Glory are ones actually in the vehicles path. If you tank shock from a direction that would have you contact non-melta guys, you won't have to worry about it. If you head right towards the meltagun, then yes, you made a mistake.

Altogether, there is a ~36% chance of a Krak Grenade getting a useful result against a tank shocking Raider, with a Flickerfield bringing it down to ~24%.

The problem you run into is when facing full squads of high strength weaponry, but most of those are not troops, and either won't be circling the entire objective or will just be playing to contest anyway.

Also, you do it for the ability to force a morale check. While Marines still have a decent leadership within range of TGLs, that 8 will fail at some point. Morale is one of the most powerful (and underutilized) aspects of this game.

Brycec13
01-20-2011, 08:51 PM
. I think the Wracks are over priced for what they are. More Kabalites in Raiders and/or Venoms.
I agree on that. And i think shifting points around i can wing a squad in a raider but im still playing.

I'm undecided about Vect. He's trés expensive.
He is expensive but so far every time i have played him he has paid off. I can see where it is a judgement call with him.

it's the Dias, so a full frontal shafting into your opponent should draw the heavy vehicle fire - if you've popped lots with DL (and I KNOW what you mean about DL failure!) this should cause major problems for your opponent. Consider Trueborn with him - if the Dais survives a round of firepower, the Shard carbines will be super tasty alongside blasters and splinter cannons? I could ramble on.
I would love to take the Dais but thats a points issue in itself.

It does seem from your responses that you've already made your mind up about your list though! There are elements of it that I think will be useful against Imperial Guard though, especially Vect...
I am sorry if i am coming across like that. I just want something different yet effective. Scourges hardly ever got used and now they are worth using. the talos is one of my favorite models, and beasts can be flakey but they mesh well.And the trueborn thing. I use them as AI lol. the vehicles take vehicles and scourges are there for a back up/ support but the best feeling i get it shooting say an assult squad of BA with a sanguinary priest with 12 blasters and obliterating what he thought was going to change the tide.

The shock prow thing I understand, and it definitely could hurt when they have that 7" ring of pain in my rear around it but i just have to work so that my opponent doesn't get that position and keep it. I agree that moral isn't played in most peoples hands and it should but im the kind of person who avoids leaving that unit sitting there and i would rather bait them or flank and fire. doesn't always work but I only need a small window to squeeze in.

I really appreciate everyones input and i am currently working to adjust my list based on comments. Please keep it coming.