The most versatile codex?

[foostoofoo]

So simple easy question, what do you believe to be the most customisable codex and why? Something that can make several different competitive tournament lists. What has the best mix and options.

So lets hear it!

[Old_Paladin]

The Chaos Codex.

(and here comes the boos and the rants)

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Space Marines....if you assume no allies. All the other's that qualify fall down somewhere. The versatile builds Codex SM bring to the table all have something to actually give them a chance...from Vulkan/melta spam to dakka Preds/Dreads to flat out Dread spam to THSS(w/out vulkan) spam and bikers....ad nauseum...they all bring something that has a GOOD non-noob requiring chance to the table (tourney or otherwise).

IG gets close when you plug in DH/WH, but without they have different 'flavors' of I move and Nuke you, or I stay relatively still and Nuke you!

Orks are versatile, but not functional enough to have 'competitive' (cough) builds outside a few limited parameters.

those are the big three versatility armies IMHO.

[Wolfshade]

I would agree, either that or Imperial Guard, these latest codices are designed so that they can built different playing styles with different the same army using special characters to "unlock" the potential, and obviously the newer codices are going to be written to reflect the latest rule set. Both codices enable you to build gun lines, mech armies aswell as elitist list and to a lesser extent all out assault armies so they can be tailored to any situation. Compare this to say necrons where it is very uncommon to see an army without lord & res orb. I just hope this doesn't ignite cries of my codex is 312 years old it needs updating! Since I think we have all been beaten by that dark eldar army.

[Valdore]

Personally, I would say Guard. Though I am somewhat biased! However, with the ability to strike hardest among their Heavy Support, the leman russes and artillery, as well as having fast and fast skimmer transports, you cover most of the vehicular bases.

Add onto that the fact that you have several different types of troops choices for whatever you might need, including the infamous platoon which can be modified within itself to suit the task, you end up with a pretty broad capability.

And then you have the Elites and Fast Attack. Combine all these points with the low points costs and you can end up with an army to combat most threats, so long as you build it specifically ;)

However, until the rest of the fifth ed codices come out, I will say that there may be others that are suited to it when they're released :)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Regarding the Space Marines being the most versatile codex: The Space Marines' model count will fail against the obscene numbers of models other armies can put out. Even Chaos can manage 75 in 2000 points. Offensively the SMs do not do serious damage without Vulkan or Pedro; any horde army can easily deal with them with numbers and good generalship. Defensively, the crumble to almost every upgraded weapon in the game.Don't forget, an SM army is only about 50 rolls of 1 away from being tabled from the get-go. Now think about how many dice you will be rolling against a horde army or a CC heavy army or a shooty army...it's not that far off from being certain.

To win reliably against good generals when using the SM you have to play like a complete fraidy cat; hide out of LOS, use combat tactics to run whenever possible (as running away is almost always better than standing and fighting for them), sacrifice your transports to block LOS, and never ever ever use suicide pods. The only thing in the book that is legitimately versatile and can deal with any threat is the THSS Terminators. Virtually any other thing in the codex is specialized and fails against whatever it is not specialized against.

The most versatile codex by far is the Imperial Guard codex. It can deal with anything and can do it a number of ways, and almost none of them require much thought beyond the obvious. Case in point: When was the last time a guard player had to think about what his heavy support vehicles were going to be doing? Almost all of them are huge-damage template weapons; it is just a matter of picking your flavor.

No amount of cover saves will stop a MEQ army from withering under the guard's combined firepower.

[Schnitzel]

I'm gonna cast my vote in favor of Chaos Space Marines as they have the most variety of useful troop choices. Troops being the scoring unit in 5th ed, I'd say that carries a considerable amount of weight.

With HQ choices factoring in though, CSMs are found wanting... Coded: Space Marines excells here and carries the torch high.

[FirstLegion]

I'd have to go with guard. Marines second.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Regarding the Space Marines being the most versatile codex: The Space Marines' model count will fail against the obscene numbers of models other armies can put out. Even Chaos can manage 75 in 2000 points. Offensively the SMs do not do serious damage without Vulkan or Pedro; any horde army can easily deal with them with numbers and good generalship. Defensively, the crumble to almost every upgraded weapon in the game.Don't forget, an SM army is only about 50 rolls of 1 away from being tabled from the get-go. Now think about how many dice you will be rolling against a horde army or a CC heavy army or a shooty army...it's not that far off from being certain.

I will take an SM army W/OUT either of your named characters, and beat the two most prevalent oblit spam/dbl list builds with my eyes shut. Oh, and though not utterly 'fail', Pedro is NOT a 'win win' points expenditure.


To win reliably against good generals when using the SM you have to play like a complete fraidy cat; hide out of LOS, use combat tactics to run whenever possible (as running away is almost always better than standing and fighting for them), sacrifice your transports to block LOS, and never ever ever use suicide pods. The only thing in the book that is legitimately versatile and can deal with any threat is the THSS Terminators. Virtually any other thing in the codex is specialized and fails against whatever it is not specialized against.

Oh wait, I should NEVER use the tactics that make me viable to win...I'm sorry, I shouldn't use combat tactics that I am being given to beat whatever spam you've brought to the table? I shouldn't use cover? I shouldn't use my rhinos for bloc...oh wait, Chaos does that too. In fact, they were the first ones with the 35 point throw away rhino.
Oh right, the most ubiquitous unit in the game, a rhino mounted tac squad, is 'specialize' against something and fails against all else. hur hur.


The most versatile codex by far is the Imperial Guard codex. It can deal with anything and can do it a number of ways, and almost none of them require much thought beyond the obvious. Case in point: When was the last time a guard player had to think about what his heavy support vehicles were going to be doing? Almost all of them are huge-damage template weapons; it is just a matter of picking your flavor.

No amount of cover saves will stop a MEQ army from withering under the guard's combined firepower.

actually, I said it was one of my top three, and it's only weakness is that it is a variation on the same theme across the board (without allies). So at least you agreed with one obvious statement.

Please, first and foremost this was a post about versatility.
I did not attack anyone's opine, nor trash another dex. I pointed out my top 3 and why I thought the 2nd two didn't fit higher than #1.
Next time, I'll wait till you post and pretend to care about anything other than denigration too...
Oh, and by the way...any GOOD IG general will tell you, a well played SM list can devastate them...note I said well played.

And before you attack a 'dex with such derisive disdain, recognize whether you castigate it for lack of understanding the rationale, or simple dislike for something you think is inappropriate for your game.
Space Marines combat tactics combined with 'they shall know no fear' is subtle and powerful, and also something you must give up in order to utilize the other special abilities given to you.
The 'dex itself is defined (more than any other) in the way it can change it's flavor from one HQ to the next (army wide special rules, to special build shifts, to maximized function). NO OTHER CODEX does this, AND supplies you with the tools to field any TYPE of current army build available...and still win in tourney.

BRP has an opine, and it was simple...IG then SM, not 'SMsucksandthisiswhyyourssucksmine'sbetterlistento meIGroxorCSMroxoronlyVulkancowardmarinescanwinagai nstgoodgeneralsraaaaaaage!'

gack.
chillax.
show us why you think something rocks, not why your nerd-rage says someone else's choice sucks.



(NOTE that this was not a thread about best...that would be Tau(or some such)...it was about versatility, and Tau is not about that...it's about focus. Just like 'dar. I hate Tau, from fluff, so didn't care about em...but they'll smoke your super guard like a cheap cigar...and your super CSM too my pretties)

[Craz]

Regarding the Space Marines being the most versatile codex: The Space Marines' model count will fail against the obscene numbers of models other armies can put out.

Sir, I can put out 70+ Space Marines in 2,000 and in transports. Don't underestimate the good Space Marines. They're a viable, flexible codex.

[Aldramelech]

It has to be guard............

The shear number of options and combinations is staggering.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

*

[eldargal]

Well, it really depends on what criteria you are considering. For sheer number of wargear choices and combinations then yes, it would be Imperial Guard hands down. But when it comes to customising your army around certain tactics, I would say Eldar would give any codex a run for its money.

[Vince]

Chaos is not even close to the most versatile and I say this as a chaos player. It seems like people are not understanding what Versatile means. If you can take the same codex and make multiple competitive different armies with different themes /selections then you are versatile codex. With chaos you have one clear best build and then you have a number of inferior builds. I would put SM and Guard together as the top of the versatile codex list. With both armies you have multiple viable units for each slot and a number of competitive builds. Even troops you will change the gear/transport/unit size based on what synergy you are trying to build in your army.

[vman]

Eldar certainly are good but the cost of transports are a bit of a rip off in comparison to whats available with other armies.
Eldar do offer some pretty good wargear and when used correctly are a force to rekkon with.

I would have to say guard are the best codex out at the moment.

[eldargal]

Expensive, yes, I wouldn't say rip off. I had a fully kitted out wave serpent (with bright lances) take out a Leman Russ squadron pretty much unassisted (mind you I was very lucky). I don't think I've ever regretted spending the points.


Eldar certainly are good but the cost of transports are a bit of a rip off in comparison to whats available with other armies.
Eldar do offer some pretty good wargear and when used correctly are a force to rekkon with.

I would have to say guard are the best codex out at the moment.

[Exitus Acta Probat]

Eldar certainly are good but the cost of transports are a bit of a rip off in comparison to whats available with other armies.
Eldar do offer some pretty good wargear and when used correctly are a force to rekkon with.

I would have to say guard are the best codex out at the moment.

As per Vince, versatility is not 'best' in this context(I think)...it's what will produce the highest quantity of viable and competitive builds. I took it a step further into 'types' of builds. Guard may be 'best'(opinion and debatable), but they do always loop back around to the same basic gist...I shall shoot you. I shall keep you at a distance, crack your 'ports and shoot the ever loving dog-shasta out of you...
This is not variety, it's one theme repeated with different methods. Truth, it has a great deal of methods in which to do this though! :)


Expensive, yes, I wouldn't say rip off. I had a fully kitted out wave serpent (with bright lances) take out a Leman Russ squadron pretty much unassisted (mind you I was very lucky). I don't think I've ever regretted spending the points.

I fought with a buddy about Wave Serpents and Vendettas when the IG dex came out...I have to say that I was wrong, and Vendies are SORELY under-costed.
Wave Serpents are the opposite. In comparison to what roles they are serving and their counterparts in other armies, they and devilfish could be the worst (though I'd take a serpent over a fish any day).
They may be good, but I think for the points they are a little bit of a rip...but they can carry fire dragons, so they ain't ALL bad! ;)

[Old_Paladin]

Guard... always loop back around to the same basic gist...I shall shoot you.
That isn't entirely fair.
If you break it down to that level of simplisity, theirs only three kinds of armies. Shooting, Melee and the do neither and outlast everyone.
Guard might shoot the question is how they do it. Mass infantry, Mech, Air Mech, armoured company, a mix? Each has to be played a little differently, which I would say is variaty.


I still feel the Chaos Codex is well rounded.
Just because the intranetz sayz "Lash Prince/Oblits + P-Marines = teh Winz" Doesn't mean other armies are sub-par. It will depend on play style. Give an ork-minded player that army and they will have no clue how to use it; give them a Khorne army and watch them go to town.
Each has a different style, with different strengths and weaknesses.
Lash: good against most infantry, useless against mech and mass infantry [you moved my 1 unit; OK, my other 12 are still good to go].
Plague Marines: Rock Hard! except against low AP and/or high strength.
1K Sons: Plague light, not as hard, but no real weakness; not bad shooting.
Chaos Marines: the most versitial unit in the game! mech/foot, cheap and numerous, can shoot and fight melee; tons of options and upgrades depending on how you like to play.
oblits/vindies/defiler/raider; so many options so few slots to fill.
I also don't feel Oblits are the end-all and be-all; its a single BS:4 guy that can shoot once, maybe twice a turn and will die to a couple plasma/melta hits.

[Lord Anubis]

I'm also of the thought oblits have become less and less useful as they've "evolved." The most I ever use is one, just to fill points. Past that, I can spread out more wounds with more saves by taking terminators.

I would have to say, though, that I think Chaos used to be the most versatile codex out there. I think the latest edition, which seemed to be the beta version of all the books since, has really crippled the army as a whole and made it impossible to give a Chaos army the flavor you can give Guard, Space Marines, or even Orks.

For versatility, I'd actually say it's a tie between Space Marines and Guard. I would actually weigh in favor of the Marines, actually, because of their smaller numbers. It's possible to make three or four very viable Space Marine armies that look and act completely different on the battlefield.

You have that kind of variety in the Guard as well, but it tends to get overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of models. Yeah, you can drop in Colonel Straken, Marbo, and Sgt. Harker, but their effects are much smaller and more contained. A Guard army has pockets of versatility rather than overall variety. Lots and lots of pockets, granted... but still isolated.

[BuFFo]

Dark Eldar in my opinion....

Armies come in three basic flavors.... Balance, Shooting and Assaulting. Dark Eldar can do all three easily within a single army on the table top.

I came in first at my local 'Ard Boyz with triple massacres, and I had two massacres at the semi finals in sci fi city in Orlando... my only loss? Another Dark Eldar player lol.

Takes practice, but once you master DE, you master the game...

[Pariah Stevo]

versatile- capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor. GUARD SHOOT!!!! they shoot, they shoot then shoot!!! They may have lots a ways to shoot, but thats not versatile, is it? Now matter how many ways you can skin a cat, you are still skining a cat! Can guard Assault, NO! and no they can't hordes aint viable when they are running scared. The most versatile has to between dark eldar and eldar. Of course it think everyone is getting confused with "which army is the most versitle " and " which army's units are most versitle". If i am answering the later question, i have to go with CSM.

[Legionary]

Chaos Space Marines.

Choose between extremely versatile basic troops who can shoot and do CC well, horrifically nasty close combat marines that kill whatever they charge, hardy troops that are difficult to shake off objectives, shooty marines that can withstand punishment and marines packing devastating weapons that can stand up nicely in melee... and most importantly, all these things are in the Troops section. That's the most important thing in terms of versalitity.

Other codexes have a lot of versatility by picking units from elites, fast or heavy support. The drawback there is that 5th Edition is about scoring and true flexibility is being able to win in as many situations as possible.

The Chaos codex doesn't stop at good troops though - it has very nasty melee MCs in HQ and very nasty shooty MCs in HQ too. The Elites section doesn't have a really stand-out option but they're all solid and they only suffer in comparison to other choices from the codex - they're not bad compared to the standard in other codexes. Fast allows you to have a hugely mobile army, and Heavy has the most versatile unit in the game: Obliterators.