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View Full Version : Loads of Questions for you Rules Lawyers to Answer



Toyboy
02-03-2011, 03:01 PM
Evening all, I've just come on here and Iíd like to clear up a few questions about Space Hulk 3rd ed, mainly questions on overwatch (OW) and sustained fire (SF), but there are others. I've not been playing long so some may be obvious.



1st scenario
Itís in the GS turn, weíve got a corridor (only forwards, backwards or stay still) with 1 genestealer (GS) 4 spaces away and a blip 2 space behind it, the Spacemarine (SM) is on OW.


If the GS doesnít move then Iím guessing the SM doesnít get any shots

If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses and if the GS doesnít move any further again the SM doesnít get any more shots from OW.

If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses and if the GS moves again then the second OW shot occurs for free and automatically, but as far as Iím aware the second shot is automatically SF. Am I correct?

If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses, if the SM uses a command point (CP) to take another shot before the GS moves again then this is SF, also just to clarify that the SM can take that extra shot before any other movement from the GS using 1 CP.

If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses, is it possible then for the SM to use 1 CP to come off OW and shoot the GS and if so is this automatically classed as SF or can it be considered a normal shot (ie hit on a 6, but no jam) and also is every successive CP used after that to shoot, are they automatically SF or can they be a normal shot if desired?

If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and hits then the blip is involuntarily revealed, does this second target automatically get a free OW shot as an action has been taken? And is it SF continued from the first GS and if so can the SM again instead opt to spend a CP to come off OW and shoot without SF?

Also can a SM choose to go on OW during the GS turn for 2 CPís?


2nd scenario
The same scenario as the 1st scenario only itís in the SMs turn and the SM isnít on OW.

If the SM shoots at the first GS and misses and shoots again is this automatically SF? or can he choose to fire again for an AP without SF? Or is it not SF at all?

Again if he shoots the first GS and hits and then the blip behind is revealed and he shoots again is this automatically SF? Or not SF? Or can he choose to shoot without SF?
4th scenario
SM turn and the SM has 2 GS in LOS, if he fires at one GS and then fires at 2nd GS, does he get SF?

5th scenario

GS turn and the SM has LOS on 2 GS and is on OW. Does the SM get a free OW shot on both GS as they move? Or does he only get it on one of them? Iím guessing he gets both as the GS move separately or am I wrong?


6th scenario

Itís the SM turn, 2 SMís have the same GS in line of sight (LOS), but are shooting from different angles and the second SM has a blip in LOS if the first GS is removed. If you put the 2nd SM on OW and then the first SM shoots and kills the first GS removing it, as the blip is involuntarily revealed, therefore an action taken, does the 2nd SM get a free OW shot at the revealed GS even in the SM turn?

7th scenario

A heavy flamer, can he fire into a square with a GS on it in the GSís turn with CPs? also can he fire into an empty square in the GSís turn using CPs? Does he need to have LOS to be able to fire in the GSís turn with CPs?

8th scenario

The scenario is a game where revealed blips are returned to the pot with no limit on the GS pot.

In a long game is there any rules against not revealing any 1 or 2 blips and keeping the blips away from the action, but always choosing to reveal 3ís and returning them to the pot so that statistically the GS player will end up always drawing 3ís?



Iím sorry for so many questions, but itís things that me and my friend argue about and eventually make decisions on, but weíre not sure if they are correct.

Many thanks for any answers to these questions.

Toyboy
02-04-2011, 12:44 PM
I'm not expecting 1 person to answer all of them btw, answers to any of them will help:)

Gotthammer
02-04-2011, 12:44 PM
1st scenario
Itís in the GS turn, weíve got a corridor (only forwards, backwards or stay still) with 1 genestealer (GS) 4 spaces away and a blip 2 space behind it, the Spacemarine (SM) is on OW.


If the GS doesnít move then Iím guessing the SM doesnít get any shots

Correct. The blip behind can also move without being shot at as the Marine has no LOS to it.




If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses and if the GS doesnít move any further again the SM doesnít get any more shots from OW.

Correct.



If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses and if the GS moves again then the second OW shot occurs for free and automatically, but as far as Iím aware the second shot is automatically SF. Am I correct?

Under the newest rules, this is correct. Also by the FAQ the Genestealer can leave the marine's LOS and the sustained fire still carries over. The important part is that the marine has taken no other actions:

Q. If a Genestealer disappears from view for one square's worth of movement, is that
enough on its own to cancel sustained fire?
A. No.



If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses, if the SM uses a command point (CP) to take another shot before the GS moves again then this is SF, also just to clarify that the SM can take that extra shot before any other movement from the GS using 1 CP.

If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and misses, is it possible then for the SM to use 1 CP to come off OW and shoot the GS and if so is this automatically classed as SF or can it be considered a normal shot (ie hit on a 6, but no jam) and also is every successive CP used after that to shoot, are they automatically SF or can they be a normal shot if desired?

From the Additional Clarifications:

"Q. Can command points be used in addition to an overwatch shot in response to one
Genestealer action? In other words, can a Space Marine take his overwatch shot and then
immediately spend a command point to take another shot, clear a jam, or switch to guard
mode, for example?
A. No."

Additionally the original FAQ says you can spend CPs on any model, but that they are done before Overwatch shots:

"Q. Can you clarify how I can spend command points?
A. Command points have priority over everything. In your turn, spend them however, wherever, and whenever you want with no restrictions, interrupting another Space Marineís actions if desired.
In the Genestealer's turn, you have to wait until one of your Space Marines sees a
Genestealer do something. Then decide if you want to spend any command points Ė you may do so to carry out a single action with a single Space Marine anywhere on the board (not just one that saw the Genestealer do something).
After spending any command points, check for overwatch shots for Space Marines that didnít have command points spent upon them."


So you can spend a CP on your marine, but he'd lose Overwatch as he's done something other than take an Overwatch shot. Either way he'd only fire once - the difference using the CP is that you don't run the risk of jamming.




If the GS does move the SM gets a shot and hits then the blip is involuntarily revealed, does this second target automatically get a free OW shot as an action has been taken?

Yes. It's in the 3rd ed rulebook, page 17, right hand column, second paragraph:
"With involuntary reveals they may be [placed in a Marine's LOS] and, in this case, placing the Genestealer counts as as performing an action and so the Space Marine can fire on Overwatch or spend CPs."



And is it SF continued from the first GS and if so can the SM again instead opt to spend a CP to come off OW and shoot without SF?

No, the shots must be at the same target.



Also can a SM choose to go on OW during the GS turn for 2 CPís?

Yes.



2nd scenario
The same scenario as the 1st scenario only itís in the SMs turn and the SM isnít on OW.

If the SM shoots at the first GS and misses and shoots again is this automatically SF? or can he choose to fire again for an AP without SF? Or is it not SF at all?

Well the rules say you 'may' take a Sustained Fire bonus, but I don't see why you'd ever not. The situation where a Marine stands and shoots at the same target multiple times is a Sustained Fire situation.



Again if he shoots the first GS and hits and then the blip behind is revealed and he shoots again is this automatically SF? Or not SF? Or can he choose to shoot without SF?

His first shot at the newly revealed Genestealers does not get a bonus, as it is a new target. If he misses and fires again he would get a Sustained Fire bonus.
Again, I don't see why you'd ever not take the bonus.


So to sumarise:

Stealer A is in front of Stealer B.

Marine 1 shoots at A, misses, shoots again. The second shot gains a sustained fire bonus due to being two consecutive shoot actions at the same target. Stealer A is killed.
The Marine fires at stealer B, but gains no bonus as he is firing at a new target. If he fires at B again (his fourth shot), he would get a bonus.



4th scenario
SM turn and the SM has 2 GS in LOS, if he fires at one GS and then fires at 2nd GS, does he get SF?

No, the shots must be at the same target.



5th scenario

GS turn and the SM has LOS on 2 GS and is on OW. Does the SM get a free OW shot on both GS as they move? Or does he only get it on one of them? Iím guessing he gets both as the GS move separately or am I wrong?

He gets a shot at both. As models are activated individually he'd fire at the first stealer each time it moved, then the second each time it moved. The main thing is a Marine will fire at any stealer after he sees it take an action.



6th scenario

Itís the SM turn, 2 SMís have the same GS in line of sight (LOS), but are shooting from different angles and the second SM has a blip in LOS if the first GS is removed. If you put the 2nd SM on OW and then the first SM shoots and kills the first GS removing it, as the blip is involuntarily revealed, therefore an action taken, does the 2nd SM get a free OW shot at the revealed GS even in the SM turn?


No, the rules specifically state Overwatch shots are only taken in the Genestealer's turn.



7th scenario

A heavy flamer, can he fire into a square with a GS on it in the GSís turn with CPs? also can he fire into an empty square in the GSís turn using CPs? Does he need to have LOS to be able to fire in the GSís turn with CPs?


Assuming you have enough CPs, yes. The Flamer never needs LOS to fire, and CPs don't have to be spent on the model that saw the Genestealer action.
So a Flamer Marine could have no Genestealers in his LOS, but fire on an empty intersection to block it if another Marine saw a Genestealer.



8th scenario

The scenario is a game where revealed blips are returned to the pot with no limit on the GS pot.

In a long game is there any rules against not revealing any 1 or 2 blips and keeping the blips away from the action, but always choosing to reveal 3ís and returning them to the pot so that statistically the GS player will end up always drawing 3ís?

There aren't - it's legal by the rules but your opponent may not like it very much.




Iím sorry for so many questions, but itís things that me and my friend argue about and eventually make decisions on, but weíre not sure if they are correct.

Many thanks for any answers to these questions.


Hope that's helped you guys some!

Commander Dante
02-05-2011, 12:11 AM
It would seem that Gotthammer's explanations are correct according to the 3rd edition rule-set.

The trouble for me is, I'm not much a fan of the 3rd edition rule-set, with a couple exceptions.

Here's a few examples of what I mean:


From the Additional Clarifications:

"Q. Can command points be used in addition to an overwatch shot in response to one
Genestealer action? In other words, can a Space Marine take his overwatch shot and then
immediately spend a command point to take another shot, clear a jam, or switch to guard
mode, for example?
A. No."

Additionally the original FAQ says you can spend CPs on any model, but that they are done before Overwatch shots:

"Q. Can you clarify how I can spend command points?
A. Command points have priority over everything. In your turn, spend them however, wherever, and whenever you want with no restrictions, interrupting another Space Marineís actions if desired.
In the Genestealer's turn, you have to wait until one of your Space Marines sees a
Genestealer do something. Then decide if you want to spend any command points Ė you may do so to carry out a single action with a single Space Marine anywhere on the board (not just one that saw the Genestealer do something).
After spending any command points, check for overwatch shots for Space Marines that didnít have command points spent upon them."

So you can spend a CP on your marine, but he'd lose Overwatch as he's done something other than take an Overwatch shot. Either way he'd only fire once - the difference using the CP is that you don't run the risk of jamming.

I don't 'get' this rule change; preferring the 1st edition rule that comes from White Dwarf #142 that states that a Marine MAY use a CP after Overwatch. This makes much more sense to me, and has always been the way I've played the game.
(Page 7 of document) http://www.scribd.com/doc/28653918/White-Dwarf-142-Space-Hulk-Rules

However, I have adopted the 3rd edition rule regarding the clearing of Jams for 1CP while maintaining Overwatch. In the 1st edition a Marine that jammed was nearly always doomed.

Hence, these two rules blended together have really streamlined the game's playability, and just seems to make practical sense.

Scenario: A GS advances toward a SM on OW, who may fire and clear any jams for as long as CP's last (they tend to go quick, especially once the GS player has several models in play).

Also, I think it patently ridiculous that GS models who are involuntarily revealed are subject to Overwatch fire, as stated in the 3rd edition rule-set. What practical sense does this make? Those models are simply standing there for all intents and purposes, not having made any actions themselves to draw the fire of a SM on OW. Just because a SM can see the inactive blip's model(s) as a result of another 'Stealer's action (either moving out of blocking LOS, or getting killed) should not grant him free shots against it.
Again, I'm going to have to stick with 1st edition rule-set (Page 24 - Example of Blip Conversion inset top right which states that only if the newly revealed models move do they incur OW fire).

Lastly, the whole notion of Overwatch being granted Sustained Fire is another 3rd edition rule that I feel is unnecessary, and diminishes the 'character' of OW being a quick reactionary shot. To me, it is just a 'dumbing down' of the original game-play. In fact, the reason given for Marine's jamming on OW is because they are firing their Storm Bolter at excessive rates. How can they find it possible to aim precisely while hammering that trigger as fast as they possibly can? Not gonna happen says I!!
Unfortunately, the marketing whores at GW are aiming the game at 12 year olds and I guess this makes it easier for kids to play.


Otherwise, great questions, and kudos to Gotthammer for taking the time to answer them all!

Glory to the Emperor!

sambillingham@yahoo.co.uk
03-02-2011, 03:35 AM
It would seem that Gotthammer's explanations are correct according to the 3rd edition rule-set.

The trouble for me is, I'm not much a fan of the 3rd edition rule-set, with a couple exceptions.

Here's a few examples of what I mean:



I don't 'get' this rule change; preferring the 1st edition rule that comes from White Dwarf #142 that states that a Marine MAY use a CP after Overwatch. This makes much more sense to me, and has always been the way I've played the game.
(Page 7 of document) http://www.scribd.com/doc/28653918/White-Dwarf-142-Space-Hulk-Rules

However, I have adopted the 3rd edition rule regarding the clearing of Jams for 1CP while maintaining Overwatch. In the 1st edition a Marine that jammed was nearly always doomed.

Hence, these two rules blended together have really streamlined the game's playability, and just seems to make practical sense.

Scenario: A GS advances toward a SM on OW, who may fire and clear any jams for as long as CP's last (they tend to go quick, especially once the GS player has several models in play).

Also, I think it patently ridiculous that GS models who are involuntarily revealed are subject to Overwatch fire, as stated in the 3rd edition rule-set. What practical sense does this make? Those models are simply standing there for all intents and purposes, not having made any actions themselves to draw the fire of a SM on OW. Just because a SM can see the inactive blip's model(s) as a result of another 'Stealer's action (either moving out of blocking LOS, or getting killed) should not grant him free shots against it.
Again, I'm going to have to stick with 1st edition rule-set (Page 24 - Example of Blip Conversion inset top right which states that only if the newly revealed models move do they incur OW fire).

Lastly, the whole notion of Overwatch being granted Sustained Fire is another 3rd edition rule that I feel is unnecessary, and diminishes the 'character' of OW being a quick reactionary shot. To me, it is just a 'dumbing down' of the original game-play. In fact, the reason given for Marine's jamming on OW is because they are firing their Storm Bolter at excessive rates. How can they find it possible to aim precisely while hammering that trigger as fast as they possibly can? Not gonna happen says I!!
Unfortunately, the marketing whores at GW are aiming the game at 12 year olds and I guess this makes it easier for kids to play.


Otherwise, great questions, and kudos to Gotthammer for taking the time to answer them all!

Glory to the Emperor! cheers lads this has been a great help, the root of this evil is toyboys cursed dice, and his habit of not oiling his bolter (jamming) thanks again sam