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dvs1
08-31-2009, 02:28 AM
can anyone give me some answers for all the faqs for this power since gw kindly left it out of theirs.

1.does it scatter like all other blast weapons? or does the codex before rulebook thingie take precedence and it can be placed without deviation.

2.stupid question I know, but a fellow player keeps bringing it up. does it affect non vehicle units? I know it has a strength value and the pinning rule, so you would think that it does, but it does not mention specifically what happens to non vehicle units that are hit.

Appreciate any help on clarification...:confused:

Alqualonde
08-31-2009, 03:35 AM
c

1.does it scatter like all other blast weapons? or does the codex before rulebook thingie take precedence and it can be placed without deviation.

2.stupid question I know, but a fellow player keeps bringing it up. does it affect non vehicle units? I know it has a strength value and the pinning rule, so you would think that it does, but it does not mention specifically what happens to non vehicle units that are hit.

:confused:

The scatter question is everyones favourite bug bear. As an Eldar player I would love to say "of course it doesn't" Unfortunately my reading of the rules persuades me that it does :mad:. And I believe that the rules are absolutely clear on this.:rolleyes:

The main rules state that (paraphrasing as I don't take the rules to work) "You place a blast marker and then dice for scatter". The Eldritch Storm rule states "You place a blast marker", then it ends. Some people love to read into this that the Codex does not say "dice for scatter" and that this means the codex overules. This is wishful thinking. For the Codex to overide it would have to say " and do not dice for scatter". Since it has no wording to override the main rule book, the rule book applies.

Does Eldritch Storm apply against vehicles? The Codex says it does, so the answer is yes.:cool:

SeattleDV8
08-31-2009, 05:36 AM
In 4th ed It did not scatter...In 5th it does.
It also effects Non-vehicles units...seeing as you can't pin a vehicle.

TheKingElessar
08-31-2009, 06:55 AM
I once killed 11 Deamonettes with one Eldritch Storm. Good times.

Nabterayl
08-31-2009, 07:03 AM
The main rules state that (paraphrasing as I don't take the rules to work) "You place a blast marker and then dice for scatter". The Eldritch Storm rule states "You place a blast marker", then it ends. Some people love to read into this that the Codex does not say "dice for scatter" and that this means the codex overules. This is wishful thinking. For the Codex to overide it would have to say " and do not dice for scatter". Since it has no wording to override the main rule book, the rule book applies.
Not trying to be contrary here, Alqualonde, since I've never heard of this particular controversy before, but what do you make of the FAQ statement that Eldritch Storm, Destructor, and Mind War "include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description?" Destructor clearly doesn't include any exceptions, but Destructor explicitly says it is resolved as a normal shooting attack, whereas Mind War and Eldritch Storm don't.

TheKingElessar
08-31-2009, 07:31 AM
That bit was from the 4th Ed FAQ, it just hasn't been edited. In 4th, Storm didn't Scatter, which was an exception. Mind War ignores targetting, although I can't recall what exactly Destructor changed. Possibly just lazy FAQ writing, we know they don't really care about them (*looks at continued lack of new IG FAQ...*)

Nabterayl
08-31-2009, 07:37 AM
Wait ... Eldritch Storm isn't an ordnance weapon, so in 4th, it wouldn't scatter because of the way blast weapons worked. The exception would be that you wouldn't roll to hit, because nothing in the codex says you did, despite the fact that rolling to hit for blast weapons was standard rulebook procedure in 4th. So the 4th reading seems to me to have been "do only what the codex says and no more," essentially.

It seems to me that, applying the same reasoning to 5th, Storm wouldn't scatter?

TheKingElessar
08-31-2009, 07:48 AM
Oh yeah. I didn't play 4th much. Codex only > BRB if it specifically excludes the BRB's basic rules - not saying it doesn't scatter means it does.

Nabterayl
08-31-2009, 08:19 AM
Hmmm ... not sure I find that persuasive, but I'm not sure this is the right thread to get into it. Thanks for explaining your reading, though.

SeattleDV8
08-31-2009, 04:10 PM
All pychic shooting attacks use the general shooting rules unless there is a specific exception.
In this case ES is treated as a blast weapon, which means it does scatter.

keithsilva
08-31-2009, 04:29 PM
that is how I have always played it is scatters minus the BS of the farseer

Nabterayl
08-31-2009, 04:45 PM
All pychic shooting attacks use the general shooting rules unless there is a specific exception.
In this case ES is treated as a blast weapon, which means it does scatter.

Right ... so under 4th edition rules, would you/did you play that it could miss? Because the equivalent of the scatter language back then was "When you fire a blast weapon roll to hit as normal; if the shot misses it has no effect. If a hit is scored take the Blast marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected." The eldar codex doesn't say you don't roll to hit, so under your interpretation, wouldn't you do so under 4th edition rules?

SeattleDV8
08-31-2009, 07:06 PM
No , because pyschic shooting attacks and blast weapons both had different rules in 4th.
In 4th it could never miss.
The ES tells us not to roll to hit but to place the marker, just as the blast rules in 5th now does.

Nabterayl
08-31-2009, 07:14 PM
No , because pyschic shooting attacks and blast weapons both had different rules in 4th.
In 4th it could never miss.
The ES tells us not to roll to hit but to place the marker, just as the blast rules in 5th now does.

I'm not trying to be dense here, but isn't "Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual Shooting rules" (4th edition page 52) the same as the current rule, "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon" (5th edition page 50)?

I hear what you're saying, but ES doesn't say "don't roll to hit." It just says "place the blast marker." Nothing about 5th says that every time you place a blast marker you must roll for scatter (Holocaust, e.g., does not scatter). It's only when you fire a blast weapon that you have to roll for scatter.

If people interpret "place the blast marker" as "fire a ranged blast weapon" in 5th, I don't see why they didn't do so in 4th, or the other way around. I can see the sense of both, but I don't see how the new blast rules make 5th edition ES different from 4th edition, because in both editions you have to decide whether you're placing a blast marker or firing a blast weapon.

TheKingElessar
08-31-2009, 09:27 PM
The FAQ states it is a Psychic Shooting Attack, which makes it Assault 1 Large Blast.

SeattleDV8
08-31-2009, 11:48 PM
I hear what you're saying, but ES doesn't say "don't roll to hit." It just says "place the blast marker." Nothing about 5th says that every time you place a blast marker you must roll for scatter (Holocaust, e.g., does not scatter). It's only when you fire a blast weapon that you have to roll for scatter.


There is no difference between firing a blast weapon and using the pyschic power ES.
Both use the same rules for targeting, place marker/roll for scatter, it is the results that are different.
4th ed. blast rolled to hit, the specific rules in ES over ruled the general 4th ed shooting rules.

sorienor
09-02-2009, 03:48 AM
Holocaust does not have a weapon profile. ES does, and it says "blast". To me that means it is treated as any other weapon.