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View Full Version : Dark eldar Horrorfex...does it go through fearless...



Havik110
08-31-2009, 08:39 AM
If you read the entry in the book it states that you hit as normal and determine the amount of models hit. You then subtract the number of models hit and subtract that number from the unit's leadership and have them take a "Leadership" test which they must pass or become pinned.

If you look at fearless on page 75 it says fearless auto passes morale checks and pinning checks.

Now you may say this is a pinning check but if you look in the arcane section there is the xenospasm which is close to being the same thing only an ap3 weapon which specifically says they take a "pinning" check.

Now being the oldest codex out there there were different rules written. As it stands with RAW even fearless units must pass a leadership test and not a morale or pinning check because of the horrorfex or terrorfex. Thisis the same as even fearless creatures having to pass a "leadership" test to attack the nightbringer.

So in this case i think that having an older codex that is not in line with the rules of 5th edition gives us a leg up. It has also not been faqed...

what do you think?

Culven
08-31-2009, 09:21 AM
You should play by the rules as written. In this case, the unit is forced to take a Leadership Test, which Fearless doesn't allow the unit to auto-pass.

Havik110
08-31-2009, 09:31 AM
thats what I thought...Since my dex isnt scheduled to come ou until slightly after the world ends in 2012 I guess ill be keeping units pinned from now until the end of days...

SeattleDV8
08-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I disagree, A Ld test to determine if a unit is pinned (even with modifiers) is still a 'pinning check'
Although the wording is sloppy, it is strongly implied.

Havik110
08-31-2009, 09:35 PM
I disagree, A Ld test to determine if a unit is pinned (even with modifiers) is still a 'pinning check'
Although the wording is sloppy, it is strongly implied.

Problem is "Rules as written" and the dex uses "pinning check" a few pieces of war gear down...Nothing in fearless says a fearless unit cannot be pinned...it says they auto pass pinning and morale checks....

SeattleDV8
08-31-2009, 11:40 PM
Even by RAW your agrument is on shaky ground....A Ld test to pin a unit that is not a 'pinning check'.
Ok it doesn't call it a 'pinning test' so you have a point.
By GaP (games as played) try this silly stuff and you will find very few player willing to play you a second time.
I also doubt any tournament would allow it.

Dan-e
09-01-2009, 12:56 AM
Now i don't know what this Horrorfex thing is but from the sounds of it, it reminds me of the Necron Deceiver ability Which can make Fearless units take pinning checks and Moral test, and they don't auto pass either.

its associative property and making a big assumption because of it, but if the Deceiver ability works on fearless then the above ability should too... but again i don't know a lot about it and i am only going off what is described in the topic.

jeffersonian000
09-01-2009, 04:16 AM
Per the BRB, a pinning test is a leadership. Per the C:DE, a Horrofex calls for a leadership test versus being pinned. Same thing. Fearless states the all pinning tests are automatically passed. So, Horrofex causes a check to determine pinning, while Fearless forces a passing result when checking to determine pinning, therefore Fearless is not bypassed by Horrorfex.

You can word-smith all you like, but there is a reasonable argument for Fearless to continue working versus the pinning effect of a Horrorfex. The argument that Horrorfex trumps Fearless is based on the order of words rather than the actual effect involved, which is a less reasonable argument in this regard.

SJ

Havik110
09-01-2009, 07:22 AM
Per the BRB, a pinning test is a leadership. Per the C:DE, a Horrofex calls for a leadership test versus being pinned. Same thing. Fearless states the all pinning tests are automatically passed. So, Horrofex causes a check to determine pinning, while Fearless forces a passing result when checking to determine pinning, therefore Fearless is not bypassed by Horrorfex.

You can word-smith all you like, but there is a reasonable argument for Fearless to continue working versus the pinning effect of a Horrorfex. The argument that Horrorfex trumps Fearless is based on the order of words rather than the actual effect involved, which is a less reasonable argument in this regard.

SJ

There is nothing in the red book that says fearless units cannot be pinned. It just says it passes any pinning or morale check.

The dark eldar book calls the test you must take for a horrorfex a leadership test and not a morale or pinning check. The dark eldar book calls the test you must take due to the xenospasm a pinning check.

Therefore the test that you take for the horrorfex is called a leadership test and not a pinning or morale check and therefore fearless units do not auto pass it. And therefore the test you take for a xenospasm is called a pinning test and so fearless units autopass and do not become pinned because of it.

Once again, does the rule book specifically state fearless units cannot be pinned? heres a hint...NO! Codex trumps book and RAW trumps RAI

Whether or not it was sloppy or written 12 years ago RAW rules here and I don't care if my soft score gets doct at this point....When i see 180 boys looking at me I now see 120 boys being pinned and 2 sets of 30 wyches whittling down 2 sets of boys...

TheKingElessar
09-01-2009, 09:15 AM
Even by RAW your agrument is on shaky ground....A Ld test to pin a unit that is not a 'pinning check'.
Ok it doesn't call it a 'pinning test' so you have a point.
By GaP (games as played) try this silly stuff and you will find very few player willing to play you a second time.
I also doubt any tournament would allow it.

I see this argument trotted out a lot...firstly, it's crap, because most of us just want to play the bloody game and are happy to let the opponent use their interpretation of rules if ours isn't RAW when theirs is.
Secondly, it's hardly that great an effect to have. Ow wow, you can pin my LD9+ unit, if I fail this test. Awesome.
Thirdly, It's Dark Eldar. Give them a break - they have one way to play, and the ****test model range around.

SeattleDV8
09-01-2009, 06:52 PM
Hardly a great effect??
It's one off the best under 10 point pieces of wargear in the game.
I've seen what good player with this in a DE list can do.

My disagreement is that it should not effect Fearless units.
The Idea that this is RAW is shaky at best, what it really seems to be a easter egg hunt.

TheKingElessar
09-01-2009, 07:03 PM
Yes, they can Pin one unit easily enough. But...then what? if they charge with Witches, you get unpinned. If they shoot you, you either die, or are fine. lol

Pinning =/= all that. :)

Vince
09-01-2009, 08:59 PM
So basically the DE argument is that a check is not a test? This I assume is because the book does not use the terms interchangeably? If you read the morale checks section of the rule book on page 43 it says Morale checks (also called morale tests) are taken by rolling 2d6 and comparing the total to the unit's leadership value. While this does not refer to pinning checks specifically it does show that the rules at least pertaining to morale/leadership rolls use the term check and test interchangeably. If you have to read into your rule to make it break the normal rules then your usually wrong. If the DE wargear ( I hope what the OP posted in the first post is a word for word from the codex if not then pleases post it as written before continuing the discussion) wanted you to be able to pin fearless units it would say something on the entry.

Sam
11-01-2009, 09:34 PM
If the one and only DE player I know tried to say that he could pin my fearless units I would kick him in the balls as hard as I could.

DarkLink
11-01-2009, 09:52 PM
Even by RAW your agrument is on shaky ground....A Ld test to pin a unit that is not a 'pinning check'.
Ok it doesn't call it a 'pinning test' so you have a point.
By GaP (games as played) try this silly stuff and you will find very few player willing to play you a second time.
I also doubt any tournament would allow it.

Right, a Necron C'Tan might technically be able to pin my Grey Knights for a similar reason, but I won't let it happen because it pisses me off (which I find odd, because I usually support RAW without question).

But no Grey Knight has EVER faltered in battle in the 10,000 years they've been around, and they've fought things a lot scarier than a C'Tan (the last part might be debatable, the first is not). I'll be [email protected] if my Grey Knights will get scared when the C'Tan says "boo".


Of course, I hate playing against Necrons in general, so that doesn't help.

Lerra
11-01-2009, 11:20 PM
if the Deceiver ability works on fearless then the above ability should too...

I don't have the Necron codex, but I am pretty sure that the Deceive ability specifically states that it works on Fearless units. It also says that they do not become pinned, but rather they take a leadership test, and suffer 1 wound for every point by which they failed the leadership test.

DarkLink
11-01-2009, 11:37 PM
I don't have the Necron codex, but I am pretty sure that the Deceive ability specifically states that it works on Fearless units. It also says that they do not become pinned, but rather they take a leadership test, and suffer 1 wound for every point by which they failed the leadership test.

Huh, shows what I know, lol.

Ok, just looked up the rule:
"target unit...the unit must take either a Morale test (as if 25% casualties had been suffered) or a Pinning test at the whim of the C'tan using the power, even if they would normally pass such a test automatically. This does not extend to vehicles."

We're both right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it).

So it isn't an annoying stupid rule that results from a loophole in the Fearless wording, its just some stupid annoying rule that they put in intentionally to irritate people who have Fearless armies.

/rant on/
From what I've noticed (and in this case experienced), ignoring ironclad core rules like that only make people angry. It doesn't make the game more fun, particularly for someone who makes regular use of the rule (in this case, Fearless). Fearless is an advantage some units have, and the drawback to balance it is No Retreat. Take away the advantage like this, and all you have left is No Retreat.
/rant off/

Lerra
11-02-2009, 12:03 AM
Ah, I remembered where I read the bit about the Deceiver causing wounds to fearless units: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

"Q: What effect does the C'tan deceive ability have on fearless units?

A: The C'tan deceive ability can be used to force even fearless units to take a pinning test, and they will go to ground if they fail it. If a fearless unit is forced to take a Morale test and fails it, it will take a wound (AP-) for each point it fails the test by."

Seems odd that Fearless units can both be pinned and take wounds for failing a morale test.

DarkLink
11-02-2009, 09:41 AM
Ah, I remembered where I read the bit about the Deceiver causing wounds to fearless units: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

"Q: What effect does the C'tan deceive ability have on fearless units?

A: The C'tan deceive ability can be used to force even fearless units to take a pinning test, and they will go to ground if they fail it. If a fearless unit is forced to take a Morale test and fails it, it will take a wound (AP-) for each point it fails the test by."

Seems odd that Fearless units can both be pinned and take wounds for failing a morale test.

Yeah, its kinda like getting kicked where it really hurts, then they start throwing mud at you while you're down. Insult to injury:mad:.

BuFFo
11-03-2009, 10:44 PM
By GaP (games as played) try this silly stuff and you will find very few player willing to play you a second time.
I also doubt any tournament would allow it.

Exactly. End of thread.

Vindur
11-04-2009, 03:42 AM
Seeing as someone asked
terrorfex(horrorfex says uses same rules as terrorfex with increased range)
"If one or more models are hit the unit they belong to must pass a leadership test or become pinned...."

xenospasm(on the same page)
"Any non-dark eldar unit with models under the xenospasm blast marker must take a pinning test at -1 per model hit."

Note the xenospasms entry is not a shortened version of the terrorfex as they work differently. Terrorfexes only cause negative modifiers if more that one model is hit, where as the xeno spasm pinning test is always at at least -1