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Scoota
09-01-2009, 06:43 AM
Hey guys - not sure if this has ever come up in a battle, but reading through the rules it's something that struck me as one of those GW 'please explain' rule wordings.

In the Space Marine codex, for the Thunderfire Cannon on P73, it states that '...the Techmarine does not benefit from the Independent Character and Blessing of the Omnissiah special rules unless his Thunderfire Cannon has been destroyed.'

My query is: how is the Thunderfire Cannon destroyed? The cannon doesn't have a stat line, but is listed as 'Artillery'.

Is there something that I'm missing here? Have I glossed over some important tidbit in the C:SM or the rule book?

Old_Paladin
09-01-2009, 06:58 AM
All artillery pieces have AV:10 for all facings and any glance or pen hits destroys it.

TheKingElessar
09-01-2009, 07:45 AM
As does a failed Dangerous Terrain check.

Culven
09-01-2009, 07:50 AM
My query is: how is the Thunderfire Cannon destroyed? The cannon doesn't have a stat line, but is listed as 'Artillery'.
Is there something that I'm missing here? Have I glossed over some important tidbit in the C:SM or the rule book?
You need to read over the Artillery rules on page 55 of the rulebook. This explains how the unit works and how/why the Gun could be destroyed.

Scoota
09-01-2009, 04:28 PM
Excellent. Cheers folks. I will go back to my rule book and read up on this.

One of the new 5th ed changes that I haven't come across yet.

Culven
09-01-2009, 04:55 PM
It isn't a change for the Artillery unit type, but the Thunderfire is the first Artillery unit availaable to Space Marines. Prior to this, I think that Orks and Eldar were the only codecies which included Artillery.

Ming
09-01-2009, 05:06 PM
I am looking to get a thunderfire, as a point-save on typical 4xML devs. A cool benefit is that once the artillery piece is gone, the now-IC tech marine can join a squad and "BE" another powerfist equivalent in that squad.

EmperorEternalXIX
09-01-2009, 05:21 PM
Not a very good one, but yes.

The cannon will die often, and fast. Not worth the points in my opinion. But this is how it works.

DarkLink
09-01-2009, 09:18 PM
I have heard some people have good results with the cannon, though it seems a little hit or miss. One guy I heard of caused 19 wounds on a unit of Seraphim in a single shooting phase, killing them and earning back the cannons points.
It seems to me to be a fun unit that requires a good cover save (bolster defenses, anyone?) and good deployment to be truly useful, but in the right situation can be devestating.

burning crome
09-02-2009, 04:08 AM
It would have been better if it didn’t follow the artillery rules which generally don’t work that well, and was treated as infantry with an amour save (2+ would be nice). Either that or boast artillery up to AV 11 to stop them being taken out by basic weapon fire. The problem with the thunder fire cannon is that your really paying a lot for the tec priest who is designed for CC (flamer, PP and 2PF attacks) more than any thing else. I’ve played against some one who field one and used it quite well. Using it to disrupt my transports letting the rest of the army get more shots off, and then getting the tec to team up with the scouts that where also hiding in the same building (the objective) before I could charge them. His trick was to have the tec with in two of the squad so he alto joined as soon as the cannon went in the his next movement turn.
Personally I think that the tec priest entry in general need a bit of work and am quite interested to see what the iron farther gets in the new codex.

EmperorEternalXIX
09-02-2009, 12:50 PM
The techmarine has been on a steady stream of nerfs since the previous SM codex.

My biggest gripe with the thunderfire cannon is that the techmarine himself dies rather easily. Even if the gun doesn't get destroyed, all it takes is one roll of 1 to end him.

burning crome
09-02-2009, 05:27 PM
The problem was back in the old codex people where taking him to get the HW servitors to act as a cheap dev squad. Combined with traits that let you field six dev squads (possible in the same elite slots and the tec mind will have to go dig out my copy ) the SM gun line could take more firepower than the guard.
They seem to have stopped this from happening with mind lock and no point reduction for the servitors making them over priced in these days of cheaper troops. But the dropping of the second wound has really hurt the tec. I’m still fielding a master of the forge in a dread podding list and he’s ok, he could have done with an inv save of some sort and possible some other war gear load outs to make in more interesting (I have like to see he be able to take or a smaller version of thunder fire cannon since I don’t think much of the conversion beamer).
I think I might try the cannons at some point in smaller games or city fighting since it is quite cheap. And having multiple boaster defences ( I would take two or even three) would give my tac’s some defence against all this plasma and melta fire these new guard list keep hitting me with.

wittdooley
09-02-2009, 05:42 PM
I dunno, I think the Techmarine and TFCannon can be pretty brutal against some armies. Obviously, the TFCannon is going to be more effective against horde armies and armies with low or no armour save. I still think it can act as a really nice deterrent.

As for the Techmarine... bolster defenses is worth quite a bit, particularly when you use it to help a devastator squad defend an objective. Also, a2+ armour save is nothing to scoff at. Not to mention they can be pretty brutal in H2H.

And dont forget the Master of the Forge with the conversion beamer. He can be NASTY. I've had him take out multiple Stompas in apoc games.

DarkLink
09-02-2009, 05:49 PM
The techmarine has been on a steady stream of nerfs since the previous SM codex.

My biggest gripe with the thunderfire cannon is that the techmarine himself dies rather easily. Even if the gun doesn't get destroyed, all it takes is one roll of 1 to end him.

Maybe they should have allowed you to purchase a few servitors to act as meatshields and throw out a few more shots.

Jackmojo
09-02-2009, 06:09 PM
The Thunderfire cannon is alright, and cheap enough to slot into most armies without it being a detriment. fairly good against foot slogging hoards as it can rack up and impressive number of wounds on units, but it does have a few sub optimal points:

Limited usability of fortification ability (need a ruin in your deployment zone)
Single gun crewman means a single failed save can destroy the whole unit.
General weakness of artillery to gunnery

I still field it from time to time and I like the various choices it allows me in the game, but its probably not nearly as reliably good as either a dakka predator or whirlwind, both of which cost slightly less.

Jack

TheKingElessar
09-02-2009, 06:22 PM
For me, the real kicker is that a single Plasma shot will kill the unit, nearly every time it hits. Whichever one of them it gets allocated to, it pretty much kills, guaranteed. I did a review of the thing on my blog, in fact, months ago, where that was my main conclusion.

sorri
09-03-2009, 03:28 PM
I have heard some people have good results with the cannon, though it seems a little hit or miss. One guy I heard of caused 19 wounds on a unit of Seraphim in a single shooting phase, killing them and earning back the cannons points.
It seems to me to be a fun unit that requires a good cover save (bolster defenses, anyone?) and good deployment to be truly useful, but in the right situation can be devestating.

I had that happen at BoLSCon -- Seraphim + St. Celestine arrived via Deep Strike to take out a unit, didn't do well with my deep strike but still in range to hurt the unit, then got hammered by the Thunderfire Cannon.

SeattleDV8
09-03-2009, 05:09 PM
For me, the real kicker is that a single Plasma shot will kill the unit, nearly every time it hits. Whichever one of them it gets allocated to, it pretty much kills, guaranteed. I did a review of the thing on my blog, in fact, months ago, where that was my main conclusion.

I think your math is a bit off.
Even in the open you have about a 47% ( 29% on the gun/ 18% on the techmarine) of killing one or the other with a single plasma shot from a MEQ.
A 4+ save lowers that to roughly 23% (14% gun / 9% Tech)
A bolstered ruin 3+ drops it to 14% (9% gun / 6% tech)

TheKingElessar
09-03-2009, 06:15 PM
I said when it hits...

SeattleDV8
09-04-2009, 01:28 AM
LOL Silly way to frame it, you have to hit a target before you can harm it.
Even so, with a hit, a target in the open has a 71% chance of death (44 gun/27 tech)
4+ save 36% (22 gun/14 tech)
3+ save 24% (15 gun/ 9 tech)
On top of that in order to destroy the entire unit with one shot it has to be on the Techmarine.
I would guess you rarely see this unit in the open, and so hardly guaranteed.
A glass cannon, yes

Xas
09-04-2009, 01:43 AM
I like it and cant see how people say its to costy points wise?

if you like 3+ cover you get the tecmarine and the gun for free. if you have enough tanks your gun will either draw a lot of AT fire or be ignored. high ap AT fire like scatter lasers and autocanons has a good chance to be "wasted" on the tecmarine 2+ and low ap AT fire usually expensive enoguh that unless you roll crap for your cover saves it will be worth the deal.

TheKingElessar
09-04-2009, 05:59 AM
LOL Silly way to frame it, you have to hit a target before you can harm it.
Even so, with a hit, a target in the open has a 71% chance of death (44 gun/27 tech)
4+ save 36% (22 gun/14 tech)
3+ save 24% (15 gun/ 9 tech)
On top of that in order to destroy the entire unit with one shot it has to be on the Techmarine.
I would guess you rarely see this unit in the open, and so hardly guaranteed.
A glass cannon, yes

Not all of us play with a building in our opening deployment, preferring more original cover. :p

As a result, he wouldn't be able to bolster defenses, and would only get a 4+ anyway...

One of the worst parts is that he takes up a Dakka Pred/Vindicator slot. And costs the same as 2 MM Attack Bikes, ofc. :D

sorienor
09-04-2009, 01:19 PM
To me the biggest problem with the thunderfire is the competition for the HS slots, between preds, LR's, vindicators and dev squads choosing which one isn't easy. Not to mention a HB/AC pred is actually cheaper then the cannon...

therealjohnny5
09-04-2009, 02:39 PM
Maybe they should have allowed you to purchase a few servitors to act as meatshields and throw out a few more shots.

Actually according to the codex any techmarine or MotF can take servitors. If i have the points i always take two or four. Those extra HB's and PF attacks can help. Then you have extra wounds possibly when the TFC is hit. As for its usefulness i've had great sucess with it vs any hoard, low AP army. which if you think about it is most armies. And city fights are great bc of the various shots you can fire.

I had my friends lictor pop up next to me and attack, the 2+ save took all his punishment then my Tech spanked him with all the power attacks. and a Hvy 4 for 100pts. not bad. the only other low AP template launcher i've had as much sucess with is the FW Deathstorm Drop pods...now those aren't even close to fair...

sorri
09-04-2009, 03:09 PM
To me, it's much like anything else -- it gives you more flexibility by being there, but if your play style doesn't support it, don't take it. :) I've seen people that love them or hate them, but it's nice that it's an option.

Jackmojo
09-04-2009, 08:01 PM
Actually according to the codex any techmarine or MotF can take servitors. If i have the points i always take two or four. Those extra HB's and PF attacks can help. Then you have extra wounds possibly when the TFC is hit.

The servitors cannot join the Techmarine so long as the Thunderfire cannon is alive, as until it is destroyed he does not have the Independent Character rule.

Jack