Chaos Icons discussion

[PlaguedOne]

I don't mean to discuss the personal icons used as summoning points for daemons. That makes sense to me and is something that I feel fits the army.

I mean to discuss the icons of the Chaos Gods. I currently have a very negative view of them. I was much happier with the marking system of the previous Chaos Space Marine codex. However, I would like to delve into some of the other thoughts that are out there and see if I might be looking at things in an overly negative light.

I play a Nurgle-focused army. But I refuse to buy an Icon of Nurgle. If I need Nurgle infantry, I will buy Plague Marines (and don't get me wrong, those things are the single toughest nut to crack in the game, as far as I'm concerned). I don't see any real reason to buy, say, normal Chaos Marines and give them the icon. Nor do I see a point in giving an icon to any other unit capable of taking it. It seems both expensive and fragile, since you lose the bonuses if the icon is removed as a casualty.

So what do you think? Are these icons worth taking? Or do you agree that one ought to just stick with the cult troops for their god-specific needs?

[Culven]

I play a Tzeentch army, and I have found the Icon quite useful, especially after playing in 'Ard Boys with the proliferation of Power and good AP weapons, and the lack of terrain in some games. In a large unit, the cost of the Icon per model drops to some rather low numbers. Combined with the lower cost per model of the Chaos Space Marines, compared to the cost of Thousand Sons, I think the benefits become more apparant. From a fluff POV, I had wanted a Tzeentch army under the previous codex, but they kept turning into Thousand Sons when I wanted my own army. With the Icons, I can finally build a Tzeentch CSM army without it turning into the Thousand Sons legion. This has allowed me the creative freedom that I wanted to create my mutation-embracing warband of Tzeentch followers, instead of being forced to use those who chose to forsake the blessings of Lord Tzeentch. :p

[Muras]

I personally fight a guy who uses the icons all the time for his troops. Works pretty well for him as long as he's fielding fairly large squads so that he has a bullet shield for the icon, and as noted before, the cost for the bonus gets less the more people you throw in the squad.

[The Defenestrator]

Let's look at it a different way: how often do you let your powerfist or special weapons die before the guys with bolters? Almost never, and only to bad rolling against more saves than you have models.

I agree that the icon being a piece of wargear instead of a unit upgrade is very silly, but they're usually worth it. I would never field a CSM unit without at least at least the icon of chaos glory; CSM running from combat is a terrible shame.

Think of CSM with a god's mark as being cultists lite; they're like berserkers/plague marines/noise marines/thousand sons, but are still capable of taking 2 special weapons, having bolters, being cheaper, etc. etc.

[nojinx]

I use them on most CSM units, usually weighing the per-model cost against the advantage provided. Some of my lists use 20 man unit, so having a +5 invulnerable save for 2 points per model is hard to resist, same with +1 attack for 1.5 points per.

If I play a smaller unit (say six marines w/ meltas in a rhino) I don't generally bother. Chaos Undivided might be applied.

Also, I have death guard lists that use icons in the DG units for preventing deep strike deviation of my termies and oblits.

Ultimately there is a lot of versatility in using icons to modify the stat lines of various units. Terminators (I 5), raptors (5+ inv. save) and Fabius Bile'd CSM units (+1 attack) are all favorite choices to receive icons.

But I always base my decision on the per-model cost. Three terminators will never get an icon, while ten will always get one.

[steesefactor]

I agree with you about taking the Icon of Nurgle. It's just too expensive. And while I don't use the icon of Tzeentch at all either, the rest can be rather useful. I tend to take Khorne the most, as I think its the best value and appeals to my playstyle.

[Kristov]

I generally don't use them. I like the cults for the specific purposes, and having it wargear has screwed me in the past. Then again, I have the worst rolling when those situations arise.

[Samwise158]

Overall, the marks took a beating in the new codex. The mark of Nurgle is really only cost effective if there is a squad of 15+ marines, which isn't generally as useful as two smaller units. However, I think that the current system of marks does manage to have a couple of benefits that weren't in the 3.5 Codex.

One of them is that the icons can also act as a beacon for deep striking terminators. For this reason, I like to give any decent sized unit of soldiers some sort of icon as I use a fair amount of deep striking terminators.

I like to use the Icon of Slaanesh for assaulty units like Raptors and Bikers, as it is cheap and gives you a bit of an edge fighting against other marines, plus it is a bit cheaper than the Mark of Khorne.

The Icon of Tzeentch is good for larger Terminator squads, but overall it isn't as useful as the other marks for the cost.

[miteyheroes]

The main reason I love them is for non-Thousand Sons Tzeentch marines. Something I've always loved the idea of from a fluff perspective but that hasn't really been possible inside the rules.

But yes, fully agree they should be an upgrade for the unit not a piece of wargear.

[erfunk]

I think I agree with the consensus here.

The Mark of Nurgle is just too expensive, I agree. The only time I've used it was in a PM + Nurgle Biker army. One of my squads lost his banner due to dangerous terrain, which was pretty obnoxious.

If I mark infantry, it's almost exclusively Chaos Undivided. Generally I run PMs if I want an assault-capable unit with special weapons, or Berserkers if I don't care about the specials. But I haven't played with Fabius Bile in a long time, and would probably mark differently if I included him.

I use MoTz fairly often on DSing Termies, and debate between MoK and MoS for Termies in a Land Raider. I rarely run Raptors or bikes.

[alasgun]

I usually strictly use the Icon of Slaanesh. The advantage of striking before other marines is very nice, especially on terminators. It's the second cheapest icon as well. It's 2 points a model with an icon for I5 but 5 more to make them a noise marine (without sonic weaponry). Granted they can lose the icons and the noise marines are fearless but it works well enough for the points.

[RogueGarou]

I have been playing Chaos in 40k since 2nd Ed. Sometimes the army is more powerful, sometimes less so. The current Codex is not my favorite but personally, I didn't care for the 3rd Ed Codex, either. Actually, I only played two games under the 3rd Ed rules and was not very happy at all with that version of the rules. We lost a lot with the 5th Ed Codex but we also gained some things. Icons can be one of the more useful items gained.

For example, I never had to worry about my Terminators breaking in before. I have not been as happy with Terminators in 5th Ed as before so I have not fielded them too often. A few months ago I was using some Termies and in one game, the whole unit was destroyed during Deep Strike. Ouch. A second game they did not kill more than a couple of enemy infantry; lousy CC rolls and an annoyingly ineffective Reaper plus combis. Good news was they held an objective and could not be dislodged. Third game, they broke from a hail of fire. Fourth game, they broke from a charge of Kroot and were run down. I have also lost Havoc squads from breaking due to incoming fire. Icon of Chaos Undivided greatly helps with those instances.

I have not fielded anything with the Icon of Khorne, I will just use Berzerkers. I have used Nurgle a couple of times and been fairly happy with it. Tzeentch is hit or miss but I usually just take Thousand Sons. With the cover saves in 5th Ed their Inv save is not as special as it used to be. I think the Icon of Slaanesh is money, though. I do like Noise Marines but I love a Raptor squad or a Bike squad for assaulting with the Initiative bonus. Striking in Initiative order is why I don't field very many Power- or Chainfists anymore. Getting to strike first can often mean you are the only one getting to strike. Ask a Genestealer or Howling Banshee fan how much they value a good Initiative score. But that is just my opinion.

[DarkLink]

I kind of like how they seperate out the hardcore cult troops from the more recent converts, though as a former Berzerker player I am a little annoyed you can't get WS 5, Furious Charge Terminators.

Icon of Chaos Glory should be pretty much standard in most squads. It's cheap and effective. If you're going for a theme, or have need of a special unit for a specific roll, then the other Icons are useful, though they should be used in conjecture with larger squads (more bang for your proverbial buck). Some units, like Raptors, benifit greatly from the Icons. But for standard CSM's, taking cult troops are probably a better idea than giving them an Icon other than Chaos Glory.

[mountaincycle661]

Ok, first of all, the icons are pretty much useless on regular CSM if you're considering khorne, slaanesh or nurlge. Nurgle is WAY too expensive, slaanesh doesnt make THAT huge of a difference and with khorne...well, you may as well take berserkers. However, with Tzeentch...now thats an interesting conversation.

I whole heartedly agree that the mark of tzeentch is totally worth it. There are so many plasma guns, melta guns, powerfists and weapons, and battlecannons, nowadays. That +5 invo comes in handly! But mostly, this is the only icon worth taking because its cult counterpart (thousand sons) are worth JACK $HIT. Noise marines? Totally worth it over slaanesh iconed marines. Plague Marines? Totally worth it over nurgle marked troops. Berserkers?! Hell yeah, bring it on over those regular marines with their pathetic WS4 :rolleyes: . But thousand sons? Please.

With all the +4 cover nowadays, a +4 invo means jack. Thousand sons die just as easily to a lasgun as any other 15pt marine. Oh, and did i mention the part where THOUSAND SONS ARE THE ONLY MARINES THAT DONT HAVE 2 ATTACKS BASE?!?!?!

Take the mark of tzeentch on your basic troops. its cheap enough, gives them awesome survivability, and its just freaking cool. Leave the thousand douche-bags at home.

(by the way, im a dedicated thousand sons player who has since given up on the BULL$hit rules GW threw at us tzeentchian players with the new chaos marines codex)

[Legionary]

I agree that the icon being a piece of wargear instead of a unit upgrade is very silly, but they're usually worth it.

And I think it's about the only reason that the icons aren't far too cheap. The fact that you can pay 30pts and give the unit twice as many attacks, for instance, would be so inexpensive that it'd be a joke. Since those benefits can be lost if the icon bearer is slain then they're more reasonably priced.

Unless I'm after sonic weaponry I usually select CSM with the icon of Slaanesh over Noise Marines. It's quite a large saving (in a ten-man squad, 17pts/model instead of 20pts/model).

I think the icon of Khorne is of limited use. Bezerkers are just so much better that I think if you're after combat troops you should forget the CSMs with the icon and just go for the Bezerkers.

Nurgle bikers are obviously extremely expensive but are very difficult to kill. My friend usually gives his Raptors the Nurgle icon to protect them after they've deep struck. I wouldn't give CSM squads the icon of Nurgle though: Plague Marines are so much better.

Tzeentch is worth it on units that already have an invulnerable save, otherwise I tend to think it's not very points efficient.