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Feral
09-01-2009, 01:46 PM
I ran into this at a local tournament recently. When using search lights (dawn of war) and the unit failed it's roll is it still illuminated for purposes of the enemy shooting? thanks

PinoyC
09-01-2009, 02:10 PM
The codexes I've look in say that a vehicle that "uses" a SL is illuminated...so IMO an attempt is using the SL and can be shot at w/o night fighting rules

Aquila
09-01-2009, 02:13 PM
According to the Imperial Guard codex, no. The rules state that the searchlight is only used if you actually acquire a target, therefore if you fail the nightfight sight roll, you don't illuminate anything any the enemy must test to see you as well.

Eyespy
09-01-2009, 03:44 PM
On the same topic. Can a fast vehicle, a Valkerie for example, move flat out and still use a searchlight?

They can't use any weapons, but it doesn't require a BS check, just a range check.

Zijan
09-01-2009, 04:10 PM
Since the searchlight as defined in the IG codex requires a target to be acquired, I would argue that you must be able to fire a weapon in order to use the search light. Unfortunately my reading of the rule comes across as vague and as such, I have no quotes to back up my opinion.

In addition, it does appear that if the searchlight is used, regardless of whether it illuminates the target or not, it counts for purposes of targeting the vehicle with the searchlight. This would be similar to a unit firing at a unit but failing the night fight roll, they are unable to pick another target. Thus, the searchlight is on, but no target is illuminated.

I admit that my opinions are not as well formulated as I intended, but they always sound better before you put them to print.

Zijan

Ming
09-01-2009, 05:03 PM
Yeah....

There are some intersting issues here. Can a searchlight on a rhino spot anything over 24 inches (the range of its weapon)? Yep. Can a Rhino use a searchlight on something it cannot shoot? Sure. Apparently a searchlight can reach out 36 inches. My tactic is to use the rhinos in a night fight like they were pathfinders - they all fire the searchlights first; if the target is in range, they fire the storm bolter. The infantry on-board can fire at other targets if they want, like units illuminated by other rhinos.

Can a rhino be spotted for just using its spotlight? Yep. And the enemy can fire at it. I always want to go second in a game, especially if night fighting is involved. That way, regardless of how many searchlights I use, the opponent cannot get an advantage from it.

SeattleDV8
09-01-2009, 05:23 PM
On the same topic. Can a fast vehicle, a Valkerie for example, move flat out and still use a searchlight?

They can't use any weapons, but it doesn't require a BS check, just a range check.

You might want to read the Night Fighting rules BRB pg. 95 as these are used with the searchlight.
The check is clearly part of shooting.
"After selecting a target but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made...."
A Vehicle moving flat out would be unable to target an enemy unit.

Another point is once a unit is spotlighted any of your other units can fire at it without the night fighting check.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
09-01-2009, 06:29 PM
How would using searchlights not illuminate the unit that uses the light? I don't care if you find the target or not, you're still flashing around a huge "shoot me please" sign that's visible to every unit on the table in line-of-sight.

Eyespy
09-01-2009, 06:35 PM
You might want to read the Night Fighting rules BRB pg. 95 as these are used with the searchlight.
The check is clearly part of shooting.
"After selecting a target but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made...."
A Vehicle moving flat out would be unable to target an enemy unit.

Another point is once a unit is spotlighted any of your other units can fire at it without the night fighting check.

I dissagree with your interpretation of the rule.

Are you stating that a stationary vehicle that uses a searchlight does not have the option to not fire?

Further, to quote a poster above:


Can a searchlight on a rhino spot anything over 24 inches (the range of its weapon)?

Unless you say no to both, your interpretation is inconsistant.

SeattleDV8
09-01-2009, 07:31 PM
The searchlight uses the Night fighting rules, which are part of the shooting rules.
It may choose not to shoot any other weapons.
I believe Ming's tactic is legal, just not very effective as the aveage distance seen would be 21"

Eyespy
09-01-2009, 09:21 PM
The searchlight uses the Night fighting rules, which are part of the shooting rules.

It is infact a Mission Special Rule and not part of the shooting rules at all.


It may choose not to shoot any other weapons.

Ah, but the rule clearly states "But before a unit fires". By your strict "Its shooting" interpretation, if you arn't shooting, you arn't spotting.


I believe Ming's tactic is legal, just not very effective as the aveage distance seen would be 21"

But the vehicle cannot shoot the target it spots, exactly as a fast moving Valkerie cannot shoot the vehicle it spots. You can't have it both ways.

Or do we agree that all that is required is to select a target and check range, and that actually firing is not required?

DarkLink
09-01-2009, 09:35 PM
The searchlight uses the Night fighting rules, which are part of the shooting rules.
It may choose not to shoot any other weapons.
I believe Ming's tactic is legal, just not very effective as the aveage distance seen would be 21"

Just because the searchlight uses the Nightfight rules doesn't mean that it must actually shoot. It simply says to pick a target an roll for nightfight. If the nightfight test is sucessful, then the unit is illuminated. However, because it states that you must target the unit to illuminate it, if you do choose to shoot it must be at that unit. I just can't find sufficient rules justification to prevent someone from choosing not to shoot.

On a side note, as the searchlight rules are codex specific, this post only refers to armies that use the same searchlight rules as the current Space Marine 'dex, as this was the one I had on hand to refer to.

Edit: The Daemonhunters Codex uses slightly different rules. Basically, if you sucessfully shoot a unit, then it is illuminated. This is different from the more current searchlight rules.

SeattleDV8
09-02-2009, 03:17 AM
It is infact a Mission Special Rule and not part of the shooting rules at all.
Yes , a special set of rules that affect the general shooting rules.


Ah, but the rule clearly states "But before a unit fires". By your strict "Its shooting" interpretation, if you arn't shooting, you arn't spotting.
Check the chart on pg. 15 The shooting Sequence.
1- Check LOS and Pick a target
BRB pg.16 "A player may choose not to fire with certain models...........This must be declared before checking range."
So you can still target a unit before deciding not to fire.


But the vehicle cannot shoot the target it spots, exactly as a fast moving Valkerie cannot shoot the vehicle it spots. You can't have it both ways.
No as you target the vehicle before you check range. The flat out vehicle cannot target anything as it is disallowed from shooting . Two very different things.

Darklink : BA codex has that wording ("If this unit spots and fires on a target") , the DH and WH only require the enemy unit to be 'spotted', The DA rule is the same as the SM .

Eyespy
09-02-2009, 03:57 AM
The flat out vehicle cannot target anything

[citation needed]

Jwolf
09-02-2009, 06:04 AM
I also am interested in where "the flat out vehicle cannot target anything" is written or implied in the rules.

DarkLink
09-02-2009, 01:00 PM
I'd have to agree with JWolf. Though shooting does require you to target a unit, the searchlight rules never say that targeting a unit requires you to shoot, or even be able to shoot. The only limitation I can see is that if you do shoot with the vehicle, it must be at the searchlight unit. To assume that targeting a unit requires shooting is a logical fallacy. Just because B requires A to be true does not mean that A requires be to be true.

SeattleDV8
09-02-2009, 02:47 PM
codex SM pg. 103 "searchlight must still use the nightfighting rules to pick a target....."
BRB pg.95 "After selecting a target , but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made..."
In the Shooting Phase we 1) check LOS & pick a target 2) check range and then fire.
I think it's clear that the nightfighting rules are a special subset of the shooting rules and as the seachlights are using the same rules you would have to be able to shoot in order to use the searchlight.

Jwolf
09-02-2009, 02:59 PM
Not from anything you've quoted so far, or that I have read. You can target a unit successfully and be unable to shoot it; this is assumed in the rules and the primary reason we need ranges for weapons. Nothing prevents me from targeting a unit I cannot shoot, as they only reason to do so would be searchlights. No prohibition and rules that permit the basic action means that it's allowed.

SeattleDV8
09-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Good point, re-reading the Fast vehicle rules a vehicle moving Flat -out may not fire it's weapons.
Nothing stops it from the other steps.

Xar
09-02-2009, 05:57 PM
Good point, re-reading the Fast vehicle rules a vehicle moving Flat -out may not fire it's weapons.
Nothing stops it from the other steps.

That,
is,
Ridiculous.

Jwolf
09-02-2009, 07:12 PM
That,
is,
Rediculous.

A perfect example of the sort of posts I take note of and consider useless and unwelcomed in this forum. There are plenty of forums that love trolls; this is not one of them.

And, the word is ridiculous. At least spell your insults correctly.

Xar
09-02-2009, 07:38 PM
Good point, re-reading the Fast vehicle rules a vehicle moving Flat -out may not fire it's weapons.
Nothing stops it from the other steps.

I'll put it this way: would you let your opponent declare a target and measure distance if they weren't allowed to shoot?

Jwolf
09-02-2009, 07:50 PM
Yes, as the rules allow them to do so.

SeattleDV8
09-02-2009, 08:54 PM
It seems counter intuitive, but is what the rules state.
I will ask to house rule it in my gaming group.
That said the RAW is clear.

Eyespy
09-03-2009, 01:40 AM
I will ask to house rule it in my gaming group.
That said the RAW is clear.

If its clear, why would you need to house rule it? There's not an incredible amount to be gained from doing it that way, a Valkerie can move on 12" in turn 1 and still potentially see all the way across the board.

An extra 12" is hardly game breaking, particularly as its the rule.

SeattleDV8
09-03-2009, 02:27 AM
Because it is 'Silly RAW'
If you can't get a shot off how can you hold a flashlight on a target?

Eyespy
09-03-2009, 04:15 AM
Because it is 'Silly RAW'
If you can't get a shot off how can you hold a flashlight on a target?

Flashlights have a wider beam than a laser. Have you never watched one of those 'Real Life Police Chase' shows?

Xar
09-03-2009, 08:39 AM
Yes, as the rules allow them to do so.
Ah but they don't. May I direct your attention to page 15 "The Shooting Sequence". It starts with "Check LoS & pick a target." Shooting is this 6 step process; it is not simply step 3) roll to hit.

The vehicle chart summarizes when they can and cannot shoot. If you cannot shoot, you do not get to 1) check los and pick a target.

Searchlights are not weapons that shoot. They are not markerlights. They are gear that can negate nightfighting when shooting. If you cannot shoot, then you cannot gain the searchlight effect.


/bm

Eyespy
09-03-2009, 03:47 PM
If you cannot shoot, you do not get to 1) check los and pick a target.


[citation needed]

Xar
09-03-2009, 04:08 PM
[citation needed]

What rule says you can?

SeattleDV8
09-03-2009, 04:10 PM
If you were out of range of a target, you could not fire,but you still can check LOS and pick a target.

Xar
09-03-2009, 04:41 PM
If you were out of range of a target, you could not fire,but you still can check LOS and pick a target.

Page 17: models out of range still fire, they just miss automatically.

You would only make this discovery if you were first allowed to shoot. If you have moved such that you are no longer allowed to shoot, then you would not pick a target and measure distance: unless you can find a rule that says you can.

Eyespy
09-03-2009, 06:23 PM
Page 17: models out of range still fire, they just miss automatically.

You would only make this discovery if you were first allowed to shoot. If you have moved such that you are no longer allowed to shoot, then you would not pick a target and measure distance: unless you can find a rule that says you can.

Actually it's you who needs to quote a rule preventing a vehicle that has moved flat out from selecting a target. The ability to select a target is all that is required by the rules to make a range check and subsequently use searchlights.

Let me put it another way: Could a vehicle with all it's weapons destroyed use a searchlight? It cannot fire no matter how far it moved.

Xar
09-03-2009, 07:52 PM
Actually it's you who needs to quote a rule preventing a vehicle that has moved flat out from selecting a target. The ability to select a target is all that is required by the rules to make a range check and subsequently use searchlights.

Let me put it another way: Could a vehicle with all it's weapons destroyed use a searchlight? It cannot fire no matter how far it moved.

Abuse of the rules starts with: "Show me where it says I can't." The rulebooks are a narrative list of the things you can do and their exceptions.

Show me where it says I can shoot, when I don't have any weapons.

BlacknightIII
09-03-2009, 08:15 PM
This seems to be one of those grey areas in the rules, to me it would seem to either come to a consensus at your local store as to what can happen or you can call the GW help for an official ruling, we can argue back and forth as to what makes sense and what not but that wont help anyone if we on the board agree on something and GW rules otherwise.

So basically i think this should be left to a store consensus till someone posts either an official ruling from GW or an errata is released.

Eyespy
09-03-2009, 08:30 PM
Abuse of the rules starts with: "Show me where it says I can't." The rulebooks are a narrative list of the things you can do and their exceptions.

Show me where it says I can shoot, when I don't have any weapons.

I agree, but the rules as written don't prevent the use of searchlights on a fast vehicle moving over 12". Searchlights are not shooting, that is, infact, the crux of the argument.

And I note that you didn't respond to the second part of my post either.

Bentley
09-03-2009, 09:49 PM
Searchlights are not shooting, that is, infact, the crux of the argument.

According to the SM Codex, BT Codex and DH Codex:

Search Light
"If a vehicle has a search light it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target..."

Warhammer 40k 5th Ed. Rule Book:

Night Fighting
"After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness."

By that definition, a search light's usage still follows the standard order of a model/unit shooting at a target; which means, if a unit/model can not fire a weapon, it can not use a search light.

This is essentially an argument where order of operations needs to be followed. Rather than focusing on a single rule or concept, look at the chain of events specified.

If the wording is different in another codex, which I don't believe is the case, then you could attempt to argue otherwise.

Xar
09-03-2009, 09:51 PM
If the wording is different in another codex, which I don't believe is the case, then you could attempt to argue otherwise.

and they will,
at great length.
common sense is right out the window.

Eyespy
09-03-2009, 10:30 PM
According to the SM Codex, BT Codex and DH Codex:

Search Light
"If a vehicle has a search light it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target..."

Warhammer 40k 5th Ed. Rule Book:

Night Fighting
"After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness."

By that definition, a search light's usage still follows the standard order of a model/unit shooting at a target; which means, if a unit/model can not fire a weapon, it can not use a search light.

This is essentially an argument where order of operations needs to be followed. Rather than focusing on a single rule or concept, look at the chain of events specified.

If the wording is different in another codex, which I don't believe is the case, then you could attempt to argue otherwise.

Your own quoted passage contradicts you. Selecting a target happens before shooting.

Walk through the steps with me:

1. Select target
2. Do you have a searchlight? If yes, follow searchlight rules to see if your target is illuminated.
3. Can you fire? If yes GOTO 4
4. Check range
5. Fire.

Just to provide more food for thought. Would you allow a searchlight to be removed on a Weapon destroyed result. If not, then it's not a weapon, and not subject to the shooting rules.

Bentley
09-03-2009, 11:15 PM
This argument is silly to be frank. Here is more fun for you.

The BT codex specifically states "after the vehicle has fired the target is illuminated."

Any store/tournament I have played in thus far goes under the same rulings. The search light illuminates a target if and only if you can fire at it. Which is how RAI points to given the wordings used in various codices.

If you choose to play otherwise and it is accepted as a house rule, cool beans. TOs around my area as well as most rule gurus bend toward "no, you can't use the search light if you can not fire."

Xar
09-04-2009, 10:18 AM
Your own quoted passage contradicts you. Selecting a target happens before shooting.

Walk through the steps with me:

1. Select target
2. Do you have a searchlight? If yes, follow searchlight rules to see if your target is illuminated.
3. Can you fire? If yes GOTO 4
4. Check range
5. Fire.

Just to provide more food for thought. Would you allow a searchlight to be removed on a Weapon destroyed result. If not, then it's not a weapon, and not subject to the shooting rules.

That is NOT how shooting is defined. Open your book to page 15 and follow along.
THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1 Check line of sight & pick a target.
2 Check range.
3 Roll to hit.
4 Roll to wound.
5 Take saving throws.
6 Remove casualties.

Nowhere does it say "Fire", because this whole sequence is "Shooting". You can only follow these steps: IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO SHOOT.

No food for thought here. Searchlights are not weapons. They are not hit by weapon detroyed. They do not shoot. They negate nightfighting, after spoting an enemy, while shooting a weapon, where nightfighting is in effect.

Xar
09-04-2009, 10:22 AM
Your own quoted passage contradicts you. Selecting a target happens before shooting.

Walk through the steps with me:

1. Select target
2. Do you have a searchlight? If yes, follow searchlight rules to see if your target is illuminated.
3. Can you fire? If yes GOTO 4
4. Check range
5. Fire.

Just to provide more food for thought. Would you allow a searchlight to be removed on a Weapon destroyed result. If not, then it's not a weapon, and not subject to the shooting rules.


[citation needed]

Jwolf
09-04-2009, 10:53 AM
Acquiring a target is required for firing, but firing does not have to follow acquiring a target. Suppose I had a vehicle with expendable munitions that could fire ( A Manticore, for instance). Surely no one would contend that could not use a searchlight from such a vehicle if I elected not to fire, unless there was a specific rule that required me firing to use the searchlight.

Black Templars have such a rule requiring them to fire for their searchlights to work. Codex: Space Marines uses the exact same language, except that it is changed from "having fired at that unit" to "having acquired a target". I'm interested in why you think the language has changed if the general rule requires firing (it does not, in my opinion, nor do I find a citation given or passage in the rules which supports this contention).

The rules are clear; I believe that you are assuming dependencies where none are given in the rules.

The Imperial Guard
09-04-2009, 11:18 AM
I'm not getting where the confusion is coming from here. To me, the rules seem very simple, and I'll quote the book and add captions that represent my interpretation. Please let me know where I'm off, as I am a humble servent of the Emperor.

Searchlight (CSM#87)
1) "use Night Fighting rules to pick target"
2) "having FIRED at the unit, will illuminate it with the searchlight." - clearly states that the unit has successfully FIRED.

Night Fighting (RB#95)
2) "..check needs to be made to see if the FIRERS can clearly spot their TARGET" - Key words being firers (AKA guns, not spotlight aimers) and TARGET being shooting target.
3) "..distance between the FIRING unit and their TARGET is higher than total rolled, the unit cannot FIRE at all." - Key word being FIRING and unit cannot FIRE at all. If the spotting unit does not make the range check, the successful FIRE required by the Searchlight rule has not occured.

Disallowed Shooting (RB#15)
4) "Certain situations prevent a unit from FIRING [..] In addition to the above, certain types of weapons can only be fired if the unit did not move in the same turn. This PREVENTS models with that weapon from shooting AKA FIRING.

I am not seeing the issue here. The key phrase to me in the Searchlight rule is "having fired". The rulebook clearly states that the inability of a weapon to shoot due to distance moved results in it being "prevented from FIRING", resulting in the spotlight not working.

To me, this means several things:
1) Vehicle can not use the spotlight if it can not fire one of its weapons.
2) Vehicle CAN use a lower range weapon against a target obviously out of the weapons range just to spotlight it for other units.

Xar
09-04-2009, 11:33 AM
Acquiring a target is required for firing, but firing does not have to follow acquiring a target. Suppose I had a vehicle with expendable munitions that could fire ( A Manticore, for instance). Surely no one would contend that could not use a searchlight from such a vehicle if I elected not to fire, unless there was a specific rule that required me firing to use the searchlight.

Black Templars have such a rule requiring them to fire for their searchlights to work. Codex: Space Marines uses the exact same language, except that it is changed from "having fired at that unit" to "having acquired a target". I'm interested in why you think the language has changed if the general rule requires firing (it does not, in my opinion, nor do I find a citation given or passage in the rules which supports this contention).

The rules are clear; I believe that you are assuming dependencies where none are given in the rules.

You are talking about a different situation. You are saying: if I could fire, I could acquire a target, searchlight it, then elect not to shoot --depending on my codex--. No argument there.

Eyespy is saying, that he can acquire a target and searchlight it, after he has taken action that prevents him from being able to shoot.

The book clearly states that picking a target is part of shooting. Logically, if you are not allowed to shoot, then you are not allowed to pick a target.

The Imperial Guard
09-04-2009, 11:51 AM
You are talking about a different situation. You are saying: if I could fire, I could acquire a target, searchlight it, then elect not to shoot --depending on my codex--. No argument there.

Eyespy is saying, that he can acquire a target and searchlight it, after he has taken action that prevents him from being able to shoot.

The book clearly states that picking a target is part of shooting. Logically, if you are not allowed to shoot, then you are not allowed to pick a target.

It sounds like there are multiple different versions of Searchlight rules, so I'm referencing the CSM version at this point.

The main rulebook clearly states on page 15 that movement dependent weapons can prevent either single models or entire units from firing. The CSM codex clearly states that illuminating a target requires the target to be picked, which is prevented due to movement, as well as firing to have occured, which is once again prevented by movement. This also carries over to the Crew Shaken/Stunned which prevents weapons from firing, therefore prevents searchlights from working.

From a purely logical standpoint, if a tank is unable to firing ANY weapons for some reason (moving too fast, being bombarded), why would they be able to accurately focus a searchlight?

karandras
09-04-2009, 12:55 PM
The BT codex entry for searchlight alleviates this entire debate as it is explicitly stated that the vehicle in question has to fire and the rules clearly state that after measuring range, units that are out of range do not fire/shoot...

Even if for the sake of argument, we discount the BT codex entry and opt for the more recent (and vague) entries for the searchlight in the new SM and IG codex, we cannot ignore that both the effects of night fight as well as the effects of searchlights occur during the shooting phase. This is not debatable based on page 15 of the rulebook.

Thus, if a vehicle is not eligible or able to shoot (due to moving flat out etc), than it is not eligible to take part in the shooting sequence. Not in any part of the shooting sequence.

That being said, if the vehicle is able to shoot and take part in the shooting sequence, I cannot find anything in the rules that would explicitly prohibit it from targeting a unit with its searchlight that is beyond the maximum range of its weapons. While, I personally would not do this, it appears to be "legal" (so long as you ignore the searchlight entry in the BT codex).

The Imperial Guard
09-04-2009, 03:02 PM
The BT codex entry for searchlight alleviates this entire debate as it is explicitly stated that the vehicle in question has to fire and the rules clearly state that after measuring range, units that are out of range do not fire/shoot...

Even if for the sake of argument, we discount the BT codex entry and opt for the more recent (and vague) entries for the searchlight in the new SM and IG codex, we cannot ignore that both the effects of night fight as well as the effects of searchlights occur during the shooting phase. This is not debatable based on page 15 of the rulebook.

Thus, if a vehicle is not eligible or able to shoot (due to moving flat out etc), than it is not eligible to take part in the shooting sequence. Not in any part of the shooting sequence.

That being said, if the vehicle is able to shoot and take part in the shooting sequence, I cannot find anything in the rules that would explicitly prohibit it from targeting a unit with its searchlight that is beyond the maximum range of its weapons. While, I personally would not do this, it appears to be "legal" (so long as you ignore the searchlight entry in the BT codex).

Karandras,

I think you and I are on the same page. You have to be able to shoot a weapon to use a searchlight, which logically means that a vehicle that can't shoot for any reason (movement, stunned, no weapons left) is unable to use the searchlight. Further, you DO not have to have a gun that is within range of the target to hit it with the searchlight. The rules state that shooting at a target out of range means you missed the target, but you have still fired. The searchlight rule does not specify that you have to successfully hit the target, just that you make your searchlight range check which is independent of gun range.

Scenario 1: Rhino is stunned and can't shoot. It therefore can not use the searchlight due to the unit firing requirement. This makes logical sense, as the vehicle is stunned and you'd have to be a nut to use a searchlight.

Scenario 2: Rhino's storm bolter is out of range of a Leman Russ, but the search light can still hit it due to the dice roll. Once again, this makes logical sense as you are desperately firing whatever you have at the enemy, hoping to hit beyond the maximum effective range of the weapon. Does not effect the speed and range of light!

karandras
09-04-2009, 03:52 PM
I think we are in agreement here. Sounds reasonable to me. Next topic?

The Imperial Guard
09-04-2009, 04:01 PM
I think we are in agreement here. Sounds reasonable to me. Next topic?

There has to be another aspect of this that we can disagree on? Hell, the original contributors are no longer even involved in the conversation! =)

Eyespy
09-04-2009, 08:28 PM
That is NOT how shooting is defined. Open your book to page 15 and follow along.

Please, you're being petty, it was a summary rather than a direct quote. Nothing you've said invalidates my argument in the least.


You can only follow these steps: IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO SHOOT.

Uh, yeah, nowhere does it say this. After step 2 I won't argue with you, but there's nothing stopping any unit from doing step 1.

To reccomend your own advice:



[citation needed]



Even if for the sake of argument, we discount the BT codex entry and opt for the more recent (and vague) entries for the searchlight in the new SM and IG codex, we cannot ignore that both the effects of night fight as well as the effects of searchlights occur during the shooting phase. This is not debatable based on page 15 of the rulebook.

Thus, if a vehicle is not eligible or able to shoot (due to moving flat out etc), than it is not eligible to take part in the shooting sequence. Not in any part of the shooting sequence.

Are you really contending that the only thing that can happen in the shooting phase is shooting?

Going to Ground, Running, SoB acts of faith, some psycher powers, Imperial guard orders all happen in the shooting phase.

From the Guard Codex:

"Searchlights are used when the Night fighting rule is in effect."

We all agree on this right? Moving on.

"If a vehicle has a searchlight, it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target, but having aquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight"

So, so long as the vehicle has a searchlight, it uses the night fight rules to pick a target. Notice any requirements for shooting? Nope, me either. Moving on to the Rule Book.

"After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their tatget through the darkness"

What is this chicanery? Selection of a target (as required by the searchlight rules) happens before shooting? My word what a thing which you all seem happy to ignore.


But but...but...SHOOTING PHASE!!!

Other things happen in the shooting phase apart from shooting


Nooo, dont you see, you can't select a target because I say so!

Because you say so isn't a rule. If anyone had provided anything saying that a vehicle that cannot shoot, cannot target, then this would have ended on page two. Jwolf is saying the exact same thing, and I notice none of you trying to argue with him on his own board.


We totally don't play that way at my club!

Thats great! You can have all the house rules you want. My club prefers to go by the rulebook first, but more power too you.


Well I would pack away my models if you tried that

And you sounded like so much fun to play.

Jwolf
09-04-2009, 08:55 PM
And I think we can pretty much call an end to this one. The BRB and new books allow Searchlights to be used one a target is selected (no matter how that sounds, the text is clear). Older books (CSM, BT, for example) require shots to be fired for Searchlights to work.
There is nothing to be gained by covering the same territory further; more replies covering the same information will be edited to be entertaining to me - and I like Vogon Poetry, so proceed with caution.

The answer - Look in your Codex for the Searchlight entry.