Grey knights 1500pts help

[mstingray]

So seeing the new Grey knights models have half persuaded me to collect them as a (small) side army of 1500pts, I used to collect them when I first got back into 40k about 4 years ago but I have sold my old models when they still had their old codex. I've currently got the army list below, which isn't quite 1500pts, but I don't know what else to add.

HQ
Librarian
Sanctuary,Nemesis Force Halberd. 160pts

Elites
Vindicare Assassin 145pts

Troops
5 Terminators
Psycannon, Nemesis Warding Stave, Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Nemesis Falchions. 250pts

10 Strike Squad
2 Psycannons, 2 nemesis Falchions, 2 Nemesis Force Halberds, Justicar has daemon hammer. 260pts

Fast Attack
Stormraven
Multi-Melta, Plasma Cannon. 205pts

so that comes to 1020pts, I want to keep the stormraven as I've currently got a Blood Angels one that I will use. Any help on the last few points would be appreciated.

[DarkLink]

I'd drop the Halberds on the GKSS and get Psybolts instead, though you could keep it if you really wanted. Using GKSS with a bunch of close combat upgrades is kinda like using tactical marines as assault units, though. You have better units elsewhere for that. GKSS are a very shooty scoring unit that can help back up other stuff in CC.


Then pick up a pair of Dreadnoughts (which can also double up for your BA if you use the generic dreads) and get 10 more GKSS, or maybe ~8 Purifiers. Get Rhinos for everything that can take them. That should get you up to 1500pts easy, with a little room to play around with options.

[Bean]

Shell out for a couple more powers on the librarian. They're very good filler once you've paid for the librarian in the first place.

The Storm Raven is fine, but if you've got it built so that you can swap out guns, I'd really suggest trying the 255 point Heavy Bolter, Assault cannon, Hurricane Bolter, psybolt ammo variant. It's a strong, versatile gunship.

I would suggest playing one more troop squad: for the sake of simplicity, let's call it another 260 point Strike Squad.

Pick up a dread and give it double double autocannons with psybolt ammo and (since we've got the librarian and should definitely shell out five points for the Summoning, a warpfield stabilizer). that's 140 points.

That leaves us with:

180 : Librarian : Master-crafted Halberd, Sanctuary, The Summoning, Vortex of Doom, Might of Titan

145 : Vindicare Assassin

255 : 5 Terminators : Psycannon, Halberd; Falchions; Warding Staff; Halberd; Master Crafted Hammer

260 : 10 Strike Squad : 2 Psycannons, 2 Falchions, 2 Halberds, Hammer

260 : 10 Strike Squad : 2 Psycannons, 2 Falchions, 2 Halberds, Hammer

260 : Stormraven : Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammunition, Warp Stabilization Field

140 : Dreadnought, two twin-linked autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Warp Stabilization Field

That's 1500 points on the nose. If you can't modify your Storm Raven for that profile, those extra fifty points can easily become an extra level of mastery on the Librarian, which I'm pretty sure you'll find useful.

This isn't exactly the list I'd build, but it seems like a reasonable extrapolation of the list you've already posited.

edit:

Also, I generally agree that you're probably overspending on close combat upgrades for the strike squads. I'm not sure psybolts are worth it, either, but Rhinos almost certainly are--so if you're not set on a foot list, you should probably consider bringing Rhinos instead of all those close combat upgrades.

[DarkLink]

Right, Librarians should never have less than 4 powers. You can use 2 psychic powers per player turn, meaning 4 per game turn, and there are more than enough excellent powers that you can take. Librarians are a toolbox. The box itself isn't very useful, it's the tools inside it that make it worth its points.

[Bean]

Yeah, I was looking through the powers again and Shrouding seems like it's probably worth taking, too--drop five points of gear (I added a master-crafting to that terminator squad that could get the chop) and toss that on, too, I think. Those Psychic powers are kinda situational, but they're awfully cheap tools for as powerful as they have the potential to be.

[Lemt]

Warp Rift is better that Vortex of Doom IMHO. I'd also consider investing points into Justicar Thawn. He seems expensive at first glance, but always give him wounds that ignore armor first. It's like having regeneration on a 4+ that can revive your unit.

[Tynskel]

I'd drop the Halberds on the GKSS and get Psybolts instead, though you could keep it if you really wanted. Using GKSS with a bunch of close combat upgrades is kinda like using tactical marines as assault units, though. You have better units elsewhere for that. GKSS are a very shooty scoring unit that can help back up other stuff in CC.


Then pick up a pair of Dreadnoughts (which can also double up for your BA if you use the generic dreads) and get 10 more GKSS, or maybe ~8 Purifiers. Get Rhinos for everything that can take them. That should get you up to 1500pts easy, with a little room to play around with options.

You are telling me that a squad that has all force weapons and assault guns is not a close combat squad?

[Bean]

Warp Rift is better that Vortex of Doom IMHO. I'd also consider investing points into Justicar Thawn. He seems expensive at first glance, but always give him wounds that ignore armor first. It's like having regeneration on a 4+ that can revive your unit.

Perhaps. Vortex is pretty reliable--wounds everybody on twos, ignores all armor, inflicts instant death on just about everything. Warp Rift, on the other hand, is very hit and miss against everything but tanks. I mean, sure--occasionally you'll ruin some big scary guy, but more often than not your target will just pass its initiative test and be fine.

Warp Rift has high potential, but Vortex is, I think, more powerful in general and a little more reliable. It's still quite good against tanks, and it has better range to boot. They're both decent, but I still think that Rift is behind Vortex on my list of powers to take.

Also, remember that Rift doesn't snipe characters like Jaws does.

[Bean]

You are telling me that a squad that has all force weapons and assault guns is not a close combat squad?

Yeah, basically. It's a mobile shooty squad that handles itself well in combat. There will be some armies that you're going to want to press for combat against, but those are generally going to be the armies against which you don't really need close combat upgrades anyway. These grey knights are mobile generalists--a lot like bikes. Unlike bikes, they're pretty good in combat by default, so building up on shooting is really more important than building up on close combat.

[Lemt]

Perhaps. Vortex is pretty reliable--wounds everybody on twos, ignores all armor, inflicts instant death on just about everything. Warp Rift, on the other hand, is very hit and miss against everything but tanks. I mean, sure--occasionally you'll ruin some big scary guy, but more often than not your target will just pass its initiative test and be fine.

Warp Rift has high potential, but Vortex is, I think, more powerful in general and a little more reliable. It's still quite good against tanks, and it has better range to boot. They're both decent, but I still think that Rift is behind Vortex on my list of powers to take.

Also, remember that Rift doesn't snipe characters like Jaws does.

Vortex has a 1/12 chance of hitting you (plus the chance of scattering on top of you. And you have about a 60% chance of not hitting your target after factoring in scatter and your BS, counting a rhino-sized target. Then you have to wound, and the enemy may have invulnerable saves.
Rift always hits, will always penetrate a vehicle, and has a a 33% chance of instantly killing any I4 miniature it hits, no matter how many wounds it has and ignoring all saves.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, basically. It's a mobile shooty squad that handles itself well in combat. There will be some armies that you're going to want to press for combat against, but those are generally going to be the armies against which you don't really need close combat upgrades anyway. These grey knights are mobile generalists--a lot like bikes. Unlike bikes, they're pretty good in combat by default, so building up on shooting is really more important than building up on close combat.

No, they are a close combat squad.
They shoot n' charge, and have power weapons.

In a game where you 1) get to kill twice per one turn, and then get to kill in your opponent's turn and 2) can wipe units out during assault by chasing them down, makes the Grey Knights Strike Squad an awesome unit. They a are good at it, too. I think comparing them to either bikes or tactical marines is dumb. They are much closer to a cross between Sternguard shooting and Vanguard close combat.

[Bean]

No, they are a close combat squad.
They shoot n' charge, and have power weapons.

In a game where you 1) get to kill twice per one turn, and then get to kill in your opponent's turn and 2) can wipe units out during assault by chasing them down, makes the Grey Knights Strike Squad an awesome unit. They a are good at it, too. I think comparing them to either bikes or tactical marines is dumb. They are much closer to a cross between Sternguard shooting and Vanguard close combat.

Think whatever you want. I'll be over here, winning.

[Tynskel]

wining what?

[DarkLink]

Life;).

Thing is, compared to all the other units in the codex, you shouldn't be turning to GKSS for close combat. GKSS lack attacks, are no longer WS 5 and need a psychic test to be str 5 or better. And the cost of CC upgrades for them adds up very quickly.

Or, for cheap you can turn them into a very good shooty unit, which also happens to be able to back up more potent assault units in CC. 40pts for 2 psycannons and psybolts and you can shoot most anything within 24" and do damage to it.

[Bean]

Vortex has a 1/12 chance of hitting you (plus the chance of scattering on top of you. And you have about a 60% chance of not hitting your target after factoring in scatter and your BS, counting a rhino-sized target. Then you have to wound, and the enemy may have invulnerable saves.
Rift always hits, will always penetrate a vehicle, and has a a 33% chance of instantly killing any I4 miniature it hits, no matter how many wounds it has and ignoring all saves.


Some of this math is wrong: you have better than a 50% chance of hitting a Rhino with the center of a BS:4 blast. You have a 1/3 chance of rolling a hit and a 10/36 chance of scattering an inch or less. That means the probability of doing one or the other is 1-(2/3*26/36) which ends up being about 52%. Of course, about half of scatter directions allow you to still hit that Rhino on a scatter of two inches, so the actual probability of hitting the Rhino is somewhat higher than 52%. It's certainly not 40%, as you claim.

Still, in giving it some more thought, I think you might be right. Warp Rift is certainly cooler, too.

[Tynskel]

They are both good a shooting and have close combat weapons. In comparison to other units within the grey knight codex, they are not as good at CC. However, for 285, you can get 2 Psycannons, a master crafted Daemon hammer, psybolt ammo, 10 Knights, 2 Halberds, and a Rhino. This an excellent 'tactical' squad. Same price as a kitted out tactical squad. I would charge them into anything, just like my tactical squads, but they would do better. Not to mention, need to shoot a transport?
On paper, this is better than a BA assault squad in a rhino/razorback.

[dethangel]

dont bother with the CC upgrades for the Strike squads they aren't worth it. they're not that good in assaults and those points could be better spent elsewhere.
also the terms need a couple swords as they increase your inv save by 1,( and with no Storm Shield option). that will give you a 4++ instead of 5++, as the staff onle works in CC you could be shot to sh!t before you get into assaults
definately take Dakka Dreds(2 TL auto cannons with Psy ammo) thats 48" twinlinked heavy 4 S8 Ap4 shots per turn. they will open transports like they were tin cans. 135 pts great buy.. take 2 if you can.

[DarkLink]

Well, I wouldn't bother with Halberds or Hammers on anything but the Justicar, due to the lack of attacks. A couple Falchions, though, would go a long way to giving the squad more attacks, which is what it needs.

[Sinistermind]

dont bother with the CC upgrades for the Strike squads they aren't worth it. they're not that good in assaults and those points could be better spent elsewhere.
also the terms need a couple swords as they increase your inv save by 1 giving with no Storm Shield option. they will give you a 4++ instead of 5++ as the staff onle works in CC you could be shot to sh!t before you get into assaults
definately take Dakka Dreds(2 TL auto cannons with Psy ammo) thats 48" twinlinked heavy 4 S8 Ap4 shots per turn. they will open transports like they were tin cans. 135 pts great buy..

your leaving out one of the dreads best features!!! most of the time it will be able to shoot unless destroyed

and the aegis is just icing

[dethangel]

your leaving out one of the dreads best features!!! most of the time it will be able to shoot unless destroyed

and the aegis is just icing

yah your right the fortified psy ability and the reinforced aegis -4 leadership psytest for enemy models if it or unit within 12" is targeted with a psypower. also very cool. totaly worth the 135 pts.:)

[Tynskel]

I still think 2 halberds are worth it. Charging with 4 str5 Initiative 6 attacks is enough to cut the edge off of a lot of opponents. Combine that with 4 Psycannons shots, and ~16 str 5 shots, your opponent is gimped before they get to fight back in most cases. And throw in the storm bolter from the rhino. Not many squads have a chance to kill half a marine squad before they can strike, and then wipe out the other half, taking minimal casualties.

[dethangel]

if your really set on up grading the SS then take a chap master and opt for the counter-attack strategy as there big weakness is a lack of CC attacks. it will ensure that you always have +1 attack, assaulting or not.
i got an idea for a cheap fun unit how about a 5 man purgation squad with 4 incinerators in a razorback with TLHflamer and psy flame ammo its like 175 pts thats 5 template weapons. lots of hits and nowhere to hide.