Oh look! More Grey Knights! (1,500pts)

[TheUnforgiven]

Evening all,

Thought I would post the army list for my fledgling grey knights force before I hit the hay.

I've tried to go for a force that has a couple of elitist options while retaining a bit versatility. Comments and critique are very welcome.

Librarian - Warding Stave, Sanctuary, The Summoning, Warp Rift, 2x Servo Skulls

Inquisitor Coteaz

Paladin Squad (4) - Apothecary with Daemon Hammer, Brotherhood Banner,1x Pair of Falchions,1x Halberd

Strike Squad (10) - Justicar with Daemon Hammer, 2x Psycannon, Psybolt Ammo

Strike Squad (10) - Justicar with Daemon Hammer, 2x Psycannon, Psybolt Ammo

Henchmen Squad (11) - 2x Crusaders, 2x Death Cult Assasins, 2x Arco Flagellants, 5x Warrior Acolytes

Chimera - Turret Heavy Flamer, Warp Stabilisation Field

Dreadknight - Greatsword, Heavy Psycannon

[isotope99]

Looks solid but the apothecary and banner is expensive for a squad this small: Bear in mind you are giving up power weapon attacks when you take the banner, as it replaces the force weapon.

[DarkLink]

The banner isn't worth it in a squad of less than 7-8. You lose as many attacks as you gain, and auto-passing FW tests isn't that important unless you know you're facing 'nidz or maybe orks.

And frankly I don't think the apothecary upgrade is ever worth it. I've yet to take it, and I've had yet to lose a single Paladin to small arms fire. Plasma, melta and power fists kill Paladins, not bolters. The Apothecary upgrade is far, far too expensive to ever be worth it. Drop it, and take another Paladins and some wargear upgrades instead.

[Tynskel]

you forgot to mention Vindicators!

I am surprised you have not lost a single paladin to small arms fire. Is this due to wound allocation? I am also curious to whether terminators that you have lost could have been prevented by an apothecary (ie, the terminator was wounded by small arms fire, then killed by plasma, whereas the FNP would have prevented the small arms fire wound).

[Lemt]

I'd drop the apothecary for another Paladin. In a squad so small, you'll want it instead, plus it makes the banner more worth it.

[DarkLink]

you forgot to mention Vindicators!

I'm not too worried about them. Just spread your Termies out a lot, and he'll be pretty lucky to hit more than one guy. And it's not that hard to stop a Vindicator, frankly. They tend to waste a turn moving forward, then get 1-2 shots off before their gun is destroyed or something. That's 1-2 dead guys, which isn't great but it's not game losing for me.



I am surprised you have not lost a single paladin to small arms fire. Is this due to wound allocation? I am also curious to whether terminators that you have lost could have been prevented by an apothecary (ie, the terminator was wounded by small arms fire, then killed by plasma, whereas the FNP would have prevented the small arms fire wound).

Yep, wound allocation. What's happened so far is that they'll get shot at, one or two take wounds from small arms fire, then I just dump any ID wounds on them from that point forward.


In fact, what I've found is that my opponent actually spends most of his long range shooting the first few turns on my Psyrifle Dreads, and that he tries to stay out of the 12" charge range of the paladins. That severely limits the firepower they have to face, so they pretty much walk up the middle of the board mowing down stuff with psycannons.

[Shyft]

I assume by 12" assault range you mean 6 inch move + 6inch assault?

[Tynskel]

that sounds about right on the scary factor.

Interesting about the Vindicators, I take it you do not fight blood angels very often- moving 12" and firing the demolisher shell! I have always been a fan of those things, because when they hit right, they just mop up just about anything.

I am curious about the Dreads-- do you arm them with just the autocannons, or do you give them autocannon and assault cannons?

[DarkLink]

Yeah, we don't have any regular BA players, though there are a couple guys who are assembling BA armies so that'll change.

We have a player who used to take lots of vindicators in both his chaos and his bike armies, but slowly switched away from them.

[Lemt]

I am curious about the Dreads-- do you arm them with just the autocannons, or do you give them autocannon and assault cannons?

Mathhammer to the rescue!

TL Autocannon (Psybolt Ammo)
Armor 11 - 0.296 glances, 0.888 penetrations (1.184)
Armor 12 - 0.296 glances, 0.592 penetrations (0.888)
Armor 13 - 0.296 glances, 0.296 penetrations (0.592)
Armor 14 - 0.296 glances, no penetrations (0.296)
T6 3+ - 0.493 wounds
T4 2+ - 0.246 wounds

Assault Cannon (Psybolt Ammo)
Armor 11 - 0.444 glances, 0.888 penetrations (1.332)
Armor 12 - 0.444 glances, 0.444 penetrations (0.888)
Armor 13 - no glances, 0.444 penetrations (0.444)
Armor 14 - 0.148 glances, 0.296 penetrations (0.444)
T6 3+ - 0.888 wounds
T4 2+ - 0.740 wounds


So the Assault Cannon is only worse vs Armor 13 (and arguably vs 12), and either better or as good everywhere else. From the SM side we have Vindicators and Predators with Armor 13 (and Bjorn the Fell-handed, but who ever plays him?), Hammerheads and Sky Rays from the Tau, and... that's it, I think.

Since you'll have an Autocannon, I'd go for the Assault Cannon as the second weapon. Assault cannons are much better versus all infantry and MCs, and also work as well as Autocannons against armored targets.

[Tynskel]

oh, I think vindicators have diminishing returns. As much as I love them, I only use one when i take them. I love them, though! Two 'Ard Boyz ago, my MvP was the Vindicator, 'Voice of the Emperor'. In all three games it killed ~3x its point value.

It may be 155 points, but a BA Vindicator with Siege Shield is Solid Gold. being able to position the vehicle 'anywhere', get the 4+ cover save and blow the crap outta stuff = priceless!

Well, I know on paper they sound good.

but assault cannons are 24". The extra shots at 48" are pretty nice too. I am curious if anyone has tried the assault cannon + autocannon or not.

[TheUnforgiven]

Cheers for the comments guys.

Well, by dropping the Apothecary and the Banner I can throw in another Paladin with falchions, and add a pair of psycannons.

Hopefully the extra fire power will help em be a bit more versatile and maybe distract the enemy from my scoring units.

[isotope99]

Since you'll have an Autocannon, I'd go for the Assault Cannon as the second weapon. Assault cannons are much better versus all infantry and MCs, and also work as well as Autocannons against armored targets.

Don't forget that the assault cannon is only half the range of the autocannon.

The likely role for these guys is sitting back opening up light transports so 24" could be a handicap.

[Lemt]

In an army as good in assault as GKs, I don't think having to get close is bad. I'm used to playing with/against Assault Cannons, and the shorter range is rarely an issue.

[blackjack]

I disagree here. GKs are already the Mac Daddies of 24". What this list needs (and almost all GK lists need) is long range support. Not all enemies are going to be nice and sit around within 30" of you. Dark Eldar, Mech Eldar are going to be shuck'n and jivin' at long range for alot of the game. Also the long range allows you to support your own troops almost anywear on the board.

[DarkLink]

That's what Psyrifle Dreads are for. They may seem underpriced, but the GK army really needs something like what they provide. I can see a pair in virtually every competitive list.



but assault cannons are 24". The extra shots at 48" are pretty nice too. I am curious if anyone has tried the assault cannon + autocannon or not.

I'm thinking about trying a Vendread with Psy Assault Cannon as frontline support. It gives my guys psychic protection without needing to move up my psyrifle dreads too much. It's nice fire support, and can tie up some nasty enemy units.

Of course, I'll need to get a third Dread as I've been using the Vendread as my second Psyrifle.

[Paul]

Mathhammer to the rescue!

TL Autocannon (Psybolt Ammo)
Armor 11 - 0.296 glances, 0.888 penetrations (1.184)
Armor 12 - 0.296 glances, 0.592 penetrations (0.888)
Armor 13 - 0.296 glances, 0.296 penetrations (0.592)
Armor 14 - 0.296 glances, no penetrations (0.296)
T6 3+ - 0.493 wounds
T4 2+ - 0.246 wounds

Assault Cannon (Psybolt Ammo)
Armor 11 - 0.444 glances, 0.888 penetrations (1.332)
Armor 12 - 0.444 glances, 0.444 penetrations (0.888)
Armor 13 - no glances, 0.444 penetrations (0.444)
Armor 14 - 0.148 glances, 0.296 penetrations (0.444)
T6 3+ - 0.888 wounds
T4 2+ - 0.740 wounds


So the Assault Cannon is only worse vs Armor 13 (and arguably vs 12), and either better or as good everywhere else. From the SM side we have Vindicators and Predators with Armor 13 (and Bjorn the Fell-handed, but who ever plays him?), Hammerheads and Sky Rays from the Tau, and... that's it, I think.

Since you'll have an Autocannon, I'd go for the Assault Cannon as the second weapon. Assault cannons are much better versus all infantry and MCs, and also work as well as Autocannons against armored targets.

Even without mathammer, I like the idea of Assault Cannon + Autocannons. Feels more realistic, since Autocannons are like modern-day tank cannons and the assault cannon is like a large-calibre Vulcan. One's antiair/anti-infantry and the other is anti-medium tank. As a bonus, due to rules, this Vulcan can hurt medium and heavy tanks too.

[Sonikgav]

Hmm....Im interested in this debate now.

The Riflemen were cool and as has been said the GK's arent exactly crying out for 24" firepower but the Assault Cannon gives them a little bit more life once those Transports etc are gone to go anti-infantry. Of course then the debate turns to 'but without all 4 Autocannon shots will the enemy vehicles drop as reliably, or will they be around longer, not letting the Dreads even consider the infantry' etc.

[Lemt]

That's what Psyrifle Dreads are for. They may seem underpriced, but the GK army really needs something like what they provide. I can see a pair in virtually every competitive list.



I'm thinking about trying a Vendread with Psy Assault Cannon as frontline support. It gives my guys psychic protection without needing to move up my psyrifle dreads too much. It's nice fire support, and can tie up some nasty enemy units.

Of course, I'll need to get a third Dread as I've been using the Vendread as my second Psyrifle.

I think you got it right. 2x Autocannons for back-line support, mixed for the front lines.

[Mr.Pickelz]

so would Deep strikeing within 12" of 2 Servo skulls put you at -2D6 for your scatter? same question with blast templates.

if so, that makes DS paladins more reliable. and the Orb. strike relay somewhat overpowered

[DarkLink]

No, it doesn't stack. If you're in range of a (one or more) skull, you scatter -1d6. It's not -1d6 per skull.

And it's not clear how orbital strikes work with skulls, as orbital strikes "always scatter".

[Mr.Pickelz]

ok, thanks for the clarification. Because that seemed way to good for the price.:)