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Ming
09-01-2009, 05:24 PM
Question - if a necron warrior unit is shot (dropping 10 of 20), and then assaulted (dropping 7 more) and then succombs to sweeping advance (wiping out the rest), what happens if there is a tomb spider 12 inches away and other warriors on board near another TS? Do the 10 lost in HTH stay gone and the other 10 roll WBB? The example in the Necron 5E FAQ is unclear (to me)....Are the ones that come back broken and falling back?

FirstLegion
09-01-2009, 05:32 PM
Question - if a necron warrior unit is shot (dropping 10 of 20), and then assaulted (dropping 7 more) and then succombs to sweeping advance (wiping out the rest), what happens if there is a tomb spider 12 inches away and other warriors on board near another TS? Do the 10 lost in HTH stay gone and the other 10 roll WBB? The example in the Necron 5E FAQ is unclear (to me)....Are the ones that come back broken and falling back?

If I understand the situation correctly, only the three remaining warriors still alive to be swept would be destroped. The other 17 warriors would have a chance at WWB because of the spider near them and the other squad of warriors on the table (the spider near them doesn't matter).

That make sense?

The AKH
09-01-2009, 08:05 PM
IIRC, the warriors that were caught in the sweeping advance get no WBB. Everyone else gets a chance at WBB and will join the nearest Warrior unit if they succeed. They won't be broken or falling back, unless the unit they join is.

Chumbalaya
09-01-2009, 09:01 PM
Codex trumps rulebook, so I say give the crons their WBB.

They need all the help they can get these days ;)

DarkLink
09-01-2009, 10:50 PM
It is a bit of a grey area, of which there are two possible interpretations.

1. The swept necrons are killed, but the ones already down get WBB.

2. The entire unit is destroyed, with no WBB whatsoever.

I believe the second is true, as the BRB states "The falling back UNIT is destroyed" (emphasis mine). It seems to me that the entire unit, standing up or not, is removed with no saves allowed. If I had to make the call, I would go with the latter interpretation.

Edit: There is nothing in the codex to trump the rulebook with. WBB is simply another save, which does not state that it overrides sweeping advances. Because the codex does not contradict the rulebook, the rule that sweeping advance negates all saves is not overriden. Similarly, there isn't anything in the Necron 'dex that states that the fallen warriors would get the WBB, as the entire unit is destroyed by the sweeping advance. Though I don't entirely disagree with you about the necrons needing the help. Though our resident necron player NEVER fails his leadership checks, and I've never actually seen his necrons overrun.

Bravo-52
09-02-2009, 01:06 AM
I would have to side with Darklink on this one. The whole unit gets destroyed. And I play Necrons. That's why we need a new Codex Baaaaaadly.

FirstLegion
09-02-2009, 04:10 AM
It is a bit of a grey area, of which there are two possible interpretations.

1. The swept necrons are killed, but the ones already down get WBB.

2. The entire unit is destroyed, with no WBB whatsoever.

I believe the second is true, as the BRB states "The falling back UNIT is destroyed" (emphasis mine). It seems to me that the entire unit, standing up or not, is removed with no saves allowed. If I had to make the call, I would go with the latter interpretation.

Edit: There is nothing in the codex to trump the rulebook with. WBB is simply another save, which does not state that it overrides sweeping advances. Because the codex does not contradict the rulebook, the rule that sweeping advance negates all saves is not overriden. Similarly, there isn't anything in the Necron 'dex that states that the fallen warriors would get the WBB, as the entire unit is destroyed by the sweeping advance. Though I don't entirely disagree with you about the necrons needing the help. Though our resident necron player NEVER fails his leadership checks, and I've never actually seen his necrons overrun.

Actually, there is.

I don't have my codex with me right now, but there is a line in it (it is only in the latest version of the codex) that states that the fallen necrons are ignored for all in game purposes. Which would include sweeping advance. The real question was are the fallen necrons still part of ANY unit? The codex is pretty clear that they are not, only the FAQ makes that foggy.

MetalStorm4786
09-02-2009, 11:54 AM
Actually, there is.

I don't have my codex with me right now, but there is a line in it (it is only in the latest version of the codex) that states that the fallen necrons are ignored for all in game purposes. Which would include sweeping advance. The real question was are the fallen necrons still part of ANY unit? The codex is pretty clear that they are not, only the FAQ makes that foggy.

I play Necrons and where I play, a fallen Warrior still counts as being part of the unit he fell from. Let's say 7 out 10 Warriors fall from shooting. During the beginning of your next turn when you roll for WBB you fail all 7 rolls. Then at the start of your movement phase you decide to teleport that unit through your Monolith portal to re-roll those failed WBB's. The only way they could re-roll is if the 7 fallen were still in the same unit as the 3 standing, since you can't teleport dead models through the portal.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say that fallen models don't count as part of the unit when they get swept, but do count when using the Monolith. The whole "ignored for in game purposes" mainly refers to the logistics, i.e. you can't measure range from dead necrons, enemies can move within 1" of a dead necron, tanks can roll over dead necrons.

It's because of all this confusion that they will be replacing WBB with FNP, or so says the rumor.

FirstLegion
09-02-2009, 12:05 PM
I play Necrons and where I play, a fallen Warrior still counts as being part of the unit he fell from. Let's say 7 out 10 Warriors fall from shooting. During the beginning of your next turn when you roll for WBB you fail all 7 rolls. Then at the start of your movement phase you decide to teleport that unit through your Monolith portal to re-roll those failed WBB's. The only way they could re-roll is if the 7 fallen were still in the same unit as the 3 standing, since you can't teleport dead models through the portal.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say that fallen models don't count as part of the unit when they get swept, but do count when using the Monolith. The whole "ignored for in game purposes" mainly refers to the logistics, i.e. you can't measure range from dead necrons, enemies can move within 1" of a dead necron, tanks can roll over dead necrons.

It's because of all this confusion that they will be replacing WBB with FNP, or so says the rumor.

I agree about that last part, and I welcome the change. But I disagree with the rest.

I'd say that models do not count as part of the unit UNLESS they get up. The fact that they used to be part of the unit is what gives them an extra change to get up... the re-roll that is given has nothing to do with whether they're part of the unit.

I'd say this is a clear example of a RAW and RAI problem. It's pretty clear to me (and to the Austin stores who have ruled it this way) that they are intended to be able to "have their cake and eat it too". Because it's a bit of a complicated rule, the best way to do it is to let whomever is running the game make a ruling or decide as a group and just play it that way. The FAQ is really no help.

DarkLink
09-02-2009, 12:11 PM
I'll admit I missed/forgot about the fallen being ignored when I checked the rules, but for reasons MetalStorm mentioned I still would have to say they are all destroyed.

I've heard many players complain that WBB and the other necron rules aren't that complicated, and shouldn't be replaced by much simpler basic game mechanics like FNP, but it is because of examples like this that I have to disagree with them. The necron 'dex has more little rules issues all over the place than any other codex, and needs to be redone. I even play Daemonhunters (which is also desperately in need of updating) and will say that Necrons should be first. I'd have to say that FNP, Rending Gauss weapons and a few other simple changes would make the codex perfectly viable, without all the complex rules issues that pop up currently.

MetalStorm4786
09-03-2009, 10:15 PM
Alright, this is right out of the Necron FAQ.

"Q. If a unit of Necrons falls back after taking casualties, how best to keep track of whether they are effected by a resurrection orb or not?

A. A Necron unit falls back, having been beaten in close combat by a unit with power weapons. However, there is a resurrection orb nearby. To keep things simple, when the casualties are suffered, assess whether they are in range of the resurrection orb. If they are, lay them down and move them with the unit. If they are are not in range of the resurrection orb, remove them entirely."

That seems pretty cut and dry to me. Necrons who have been wounded and are waiting thier WBB rolls move with the unit they were in when they suffered the wounds. Downed Necrons still belond to the unit they were wounded in. You have to take the good with the bad. If that same unit described in the example given in the FAQ was cut down by a Sweeping Advance, the wounded Necrons would also be cut down since the FAQ clearly counts them as being part of the unit.

FirstLegion
09-04-2009, 01:30 AM
Moving fallen Necrons with their former unit does not make them part of it. However you have quoted the WORSE entry from the FAQ. I don't know if it was Yakface that came up with that garbage or someone at GW, but it's a pretty clear contradiction to what is spelled out in the codex.

Again, there is nothing anywhere that say dead models remain part of any unit so this is a pointless argument. Each group can decide to rule it any way they wish, however the ones that matter to me (my LGSs and Adepticon) have ruled that they are NOT part of any unit because it makes absolutely no sense what so ever. We've accepted that the FAQ for necrons is pretty much worthless.

MetalStorm4786
09-04-2009, 09:35 PM
I took the whole "move the fallen Necrons with the unit" thing, to represent that Necrons would attempt to bring thier fallen comrades with them while falling back so they may attempt to self repair later, if you wanted a fluffy reason.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The only thing that sounds messed up to me, is that when it benefits Necrons, it's ok to say they are part of the same unit (when teleporting through the Monolith portal) but when it cripples us (downed Necrons getting swept) then they aren't in the same unit. Explaining to an opponent that fallen Necrons don't get swept, but can still be teleported, seems a little unfair to me.

If another race had a similiar issue with interpretting the rules, I would tell them to pick one or the other, they can't have both. But again, I guess this will end with an agreement to disagree.

FirstLegion
09-04-2009, 09:43 PM
Eh, this argument has been made COUNTLESS times in the past and the only times it matters it always sides with giving the necrons the advantage (which is the purpose of the whole thing anyway).

BlacknightIII
09-05-2009, 06:53 AM
The whole thing is much simpler if you leave out the FAQ which to me makes everything more complicated.
The original rule says if a unit is wounded they are layed down on there side if there is another unit of the same type within 6 inches or a res orb or within 12 if there is a tomb spider.

The rule says nothing about moving them or removing them if a unit falls back or if it is destroyed by either sweeping advance or regular CC.

Next turn roll for Wbb and the rule states that you join the models with the closest unit of the same type.

Why make i more complicated than that?

FirstLegion
09-05-2009, 07:00 AM
The whole thing is much simpler if you leave out the FAQ which to me makes everything more complicated.
The original rule says if a unit is wounded they are layed down on there side if there is another unit of the same type within 6 inches or a res orb or within 12 if there is a tomb spider.

The rule says nothing about moving them or removing them if a unit falls back or if it is destroyed by either sweeping advance or regular CC.

Next turn roll for Wbb and the rule states that you join the models with the closest unit of the same type.

Why make i more complicated than that?

This.

sorienor
09-05-2009, 12:47 PM
This is a unit based game. Everything that happens to one model in a unit, happens to the whole unit. This is one of the most basic tenants of the game! There is no precedent at all for a unit to have different things happen to different models like what is being implied in this thread. There is nothing in the necron codex that specifically over rides this, so it can not do so. The whole unit is wiped out, fallen down or not. Anything else is easter egg hunting.

jspyd3rx
09-05-2009, 01:04 PM
Dead necrons are just that; DEAD. They move with the unit for purpose of making WBB rolls. They are not part of the unit otherwise. A dead necron is treated just like a booger that might have fallen out of ones nose onto the game board. When a model kills a necron it has died and does not exist for all game purposes as stated in the codex. To say that a model is killed again when swept does not make sense as seeing it is impossible to kill something already dead. Remember that WBB=WE WILL BE BACK from death.

As a side note; I won't allow or allow dead necrons that are unitless, (because of having their surviving necrons been swept) a second WBB roll through the monolith. Since they are unitless until they make their roll. Monolith entry only states that necron units may teleport through.

Also, the FAQ only states fallen necrons are counted with the unit only for the purpose of making the WBB roll if eligible. Sweeping advance isn't even touched upon. The codex also states that dead necron models awaiting to come back join other units if they make their rolls. This means that it is possible for fallen necrons from one unit to join different units if that is the closer one regardless if in combat or even falling back. So many different things can happen to individual models from the same unit as explained in the necron codex. Yes we need a new one BAAAAD.

MetalStorm4786
09-06-2009, 09:29 AM
The biggest thing I get stuck on, is the contradiction in the WBB rule and the Power Matrix rule. If we agree that any Necron who is awaiting WBB is not part of any unit, then teleporting Necrons to get a second WBB seems useless. Why state a very clear contradiction on the Codex unless they intended fallen Necrons to be part of some unit? New Codex please!