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karandras
09-02-2009, 10:50 AM
Am I the only gamer out there that thinks these guys are just a little broken? I am getting tired of playiing them at every tournament I attend. I don't fault people for it, as they are simply the best troops choice in the game, I am just getting tired of them. I think their points cost is too low and there is just no real drawback to these guys. They're just as good as other marines only a lot better!!! :mad:

What do you all think???

WereWolf_nr
09-02-2009, 10:58 AM
I am irritated by them as well, but is this a rules question?

VinceBlack
09-02-2009, 11:01 AM
Am I the only gamer out there that thinks these guys are just a little broken? I am getting tired of playiing them at every tournament I attend. I don't fault people for it, as they are simply the best troops choice in the game, I am just getting tired of them. I think their points cost is too low and there is just no real drawback to these guys. They're just as good as other marines only a lot better!!! :mad:

What do you all think???

What do you mean? toughness 5 with a 3+ save followed with a 4+ FNP, fearless, with bolter and bolt pistol/ccw with a side of blight grenades seems a bit much packed into 23 points? Oh I forgot about the 2 plasma guns or meltas. But they cant take heavy weapons so that makes up for it right?

I think everyone agrees that point for point there is no better troop chioce than a squad of plague marines, even my roomie that plays chaos agrees they are broken, but like you I can't fault him I'd run them too with how good they are. I do think that they really mess with normal CSM's though. Since the recommended squad size is 7 they only end up less than 20 points more than a 10 man CSM squad and lets be honest 7 plague marines is a lot more potent than 10 CSM's.

Lord Inquisitor
09-02-2009, 11:16 AM
If you hit them with ap 1 or 2 they die easy. Question=Plague Marines? Answer=Leman Russ Demolisher/Executioner.

Old_Paladin
09-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Actually, they are toughness 4(5), meaning that anything strength 8+ will cancel FNP.
So a cheaper solution is a normal Russ with battlecannon.

Also, they might be really difficult to kill, but their potential out-put is very low; everyother troop choice in the chaos codex can cause more damage then P-marines (even thousand sons get AP:3 bolters).
They are good campers and blockers, but poor aggressive troops.

phoenyxx
09-02-2009, 12:05 PM
If you hit them with ap 1 or 2 they die easy. Question=Plague Marines? Answer=Leman Russ Demolisher/Executioner.

AP 3 will also kill them. Keep in mind that they are I3 too, so any CC troop with better than I3 that has any kind of weapon that bypasses armor saves (like a power weapon) will eat them up pretty quick too.

Bloodiedknight
09-02-2009, 12:08 PM
Why would AP3 kill them?

Timbo
09-02-2009, 12:11 PM
AP 3 does not negate FNP.

Bloodiedknight
09-02-2009, 12:17 PM
Yeah, I think he's misinterpreting the part where it says anything that ignores armour saves. It means anything that ignores ALL armour, not just the plague marine's armour.

DarkLink
09-02-2009, 12:27 PM
Actually, they are toughness 4(5), meaning that anything strength 8+ will cancel FNP.
So a cheaper solution is a normal Russ with battlecannon.

Also, they might be really difficult to kill, but their potential out-put is very low; everyother troop choice in the chaos codex can cause more damage then P-marines (even thousand sons get AP:3 bolters).
They are good campers and blockers, but poor aggressive troops.

I agree with this. Shooting against them (excluding Str 8 and/or AP3 weapons) is just like shooting at T 5 terminators mathammer-wise, yet they are significantly cheaper than that. They are only I 3 with boltguns, however, so offensively they only have special weapons and power fists. They are defensive in nature, though with meltaguns they are great at killing Land Raiders and such. Plague Marines are great at holding the line, while other stuff like vindicators, Daemon Princes and obliterators kill the enemy.

While AP3 in and of itself doen't negate FNP, it does take them from an effective 2+ save to a 4+, and overloading the opponent with saves is just as effective as ignoring their saves. AP 3 does tend to be somewhat rare and expensive outside of missile launchers and battlecannons though. It is also worth noting that it is easy to get a 4+ cover, meaning AP3 would only go from a 16.7% failure rate to a 25% failure rate. Not much of an improvement.

keithsilva
09-02-2009, 12:28 PM
you dont get FNP from AP2, weapons double your toughtness, or any close comabt attackes that iqnore armor saves. So if you dont get a ARMOR SAVE from the weapons you dont get FNP

phoenyxx
09-02-2009, 12:31 PM
Yes, I am referring to the last line of the FNP rules, but I don't think I'm misinterpreting it. I'd be happy for a link to a FAQ or some other statement to say that I'm wrong though.

I don't have a rulebook handy, but the actual wording is something along the lines of, "You do not get an FNP roll any time that you would never get an armor save..."

You would never get an armor save when an AP3 weapon hits a unit with an armor save of 3+, and thus you would also not get a FNP roll.

oni
09-02-2009, 12:31 PM
I don't think anyone but a power gamer or WAAC player will tell you that they're not broken.

Bloodiedknight
09-02-2009, 12:33 PM
you dont get FNP from AP2, weapons double your toughtness, or any close comabt attackes that iqnore armor saves. So if you dont get a ARMOR SAVE from the weapons you dont get FNP

No, it's still possible to have your armour save ignored and get feel no pain, for example by being hit by an AP3 weapon as it doesn't come under any of the categories you just listed (assuming it isn't strength double your toughness of course).

Brother Mord
09-02-2009, 12:53 PM
No, it's still possible to have your armour save ignored and get feel no pain, for example by being hit by an AP3 weapon as it doesn't come under any of the categories you just listed (assuming it isn't strength double your toughness of course).

This has been covered in many threads on many forums. The way its worded makes it easy to get wrong.

As mentioned AP1,2 or instant kills ignore FNP.

For a weapon to ignore FNP, The weapon itself has to allow no armor save, none, not ever under any circumstance.

A battle cannon, bolter ect... allows an armor save. The ap value can bypass certain targets armor save but the WEAPON itself does allow armor saves. So if you have FNP and you are hit by a battle cannon (provided you are cant be killed by instant death due to your toughness) you can use FNP, a terminator can make an armor save so FNP can be used against the battle cannon(again if you wouldnt be instant killed by it due to high toughness). If you are hit by a bolter but you are only wearing 5+save armor, you still get FNP because the bolter will allow someone, somewhere the ability to make an armor save, a marine wearing power armor for example . This is why they specifically mentioned AP1 and AP2 weapons. A plaguebearer has NO armor but has FNP, If it were opposite of what I listed above then a plaguebearer would never get to use its FNP against ranged attacks, except against lasguns maybe.

A power weapon or powerfist allows NO armor save, never under any circumstance. Remember armor saves are different from invulnerable saves. These are the types of weapons that cancel out FNP due to allowing NO armor saves.

There is no FAQ or other source to back this up because it is clearly written in the rules under FNP. Granted you have to pay close attention to the wording and its very easy to misinterprete but its there.

phoenyxx
09-02-2009, 01:02 PM
This has been covered in many threads on many forums. The way its worded makes it easy to get wrong.

As mentioned AP1,2 or instant kills ignore FNP.

For a weapon to ignore FNP, The weapon itself has to allow no armor save, none, not ever under any circumstance.

A battle cannon, bolter ect... allows an armor save. The ap value can bypass certain targets armor save but the WEAPON itself does allow armor saves. So if you have FNP and you are hit by a battle cannon (provided you are cant be killed by instant death due to your toughness) you can use FNP, a terminator can make an armor save so FNP can be used against the battle cannon(again if you wouldnt be instant killed by it due to high toughness). If you are hit by a bolter but you are only wearing 5+save armor, you still get FNP because the bolter will allow someone, somewhere the ability to make an armor save, a marine wearing power armor for example . This is why they specifically mentioned AP1 and AP2 weapons. A plaguebearer has NO armor but has FNP, If it were opposite of what I listed above then a plaguebearer would never get to use its FNP against ranged attacks, except against lasguns maybe.

A power weapon or powerfist allows NO armor save, never under any circumstance. Remember armor saves are different from invulnerable saves. These are the types of weapons that cancel out FNP due to allowing NO armor saves.

There is no FAQ or other source to back this up because it is clearly written in the rules under FNP. Granted you have to pay close attention to the wording and its very easy to misinterprete but its there.

Thank you Brother Mord. That makes perfect sense to me. I've been meaning to argue this for quite some time, but just had not got around to it.

Thank you for clarifying that. :)

EmperorEternalXIX
09-02-2009, 01:08 PM
You would never get an armor save when an AP3 weapon hits a unit with an armor save of 3+, and thus you would also not get a FNP roll. Yes, the best way I explained it was by putting it like this: A unit with a 2+ armor save WOULD get an armor save against an AP3 weapon. It is still possible to get an armor save against an AP3 weapon if your armor is good enough. Thus, it does not negate FNP.

The only weapons that "never" give an armor save to anyone in the game, are AP1, AP2, and power weapons.

Ironically I actually don't find the plague marines broken at all. They are ridiculously good, of course, but I find that an all-plague marine list is easy to beat. Power fists and other high strength/low AP weaponry claim their lives 40-100 pts at a time and it's easy to whittle them to nothingness (especially since I generally find many plague marine players in my area are dense in the head or obsessed with being more Nurgly, and so tend not to make sound list-building decisions).

They are very good and maxing them out in a list is annoying, but their damage output will be negligible almost. Fire a few plasma cannons into them and watch them fold.

oni
09-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Yes, I am referring to the last line of the FNP rules, but I don't think I'm misinterpreting it. I'd be happy for a link to a FAQ or some other statement to say that I'm wrong though.

I don't have a rulebook handy, but the actual wording is something along the lines of, "You do not get an FNP roll any time that you would never get an armor save..."

You would never get an armor save when an AP3 weapon hits a unit with an armor save of 3+, and thus you would also not get a FNP roll.

I see what you're saying, but that's not the intent. It gives specific examples of weapons and events in which armour saves are explicitly stated as being not allowed.

Magos Bellum
09-02-2009, 01:50 PM
Most of the complaints that I have seen are along the lines of "I can't wipe them out in a single round with my huge boyz mob, so they must be broken!"

The key is that they are very durable against the basic attacks (shooting and close combat) of virtually all armies, which means that it requires specialist equiptment to eliminate them. Players with well balanced armies (or high strength/ap or power weapon/fist spam) shouldn't have a huge issue with them as (as has already been stated) they can't really do much offensively, so while the rest of the army rampages forward the plague marines don't, and the chaos army can be destroyed in detail.

Bottom line: they don't contribute much to the carnage unless you get up close to them: and every army has weapons that can rip them apart at range.

Brother Mord
09-02-2009, 01:57 PM
Back on topic for me

My Brother plays an all plague marine army and I often fight them with my Black Templars and Imperial Guard.

While the high toughness and FNP make them hard to kill I have found that the fewer numbers, average damage output and lack of heavy weapons seems to balance this out. Our games are usually close run affairs coming down to who made the most mistakes and just plain who had crappy dice rolling.

I don't have a problem with the current plague marine set up.

Patternmaker
09-02-2009, 02:01 PM
"Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armor save can be taken....)

It' been discussed pretty thoroughly but I wanted to post the line that convinced me. Otherwise I would have argued against the Brother Mod and the others on the FNP interpretation.




Ironically i actually don't find the plague marines broken at all. They are ridiculously good, of course, but i find that an all-plague marine list is easy to beat. Power fists and other high strength/low ap weaponry claim their lives 40-100 pts at a time and it's easy to whittle them to nothingness (especially since i generally find many plague marine players in my area are dense in the head or obsessed with being more nurgly, and so tend not to make sound list-building decisions).

They are very good and maxing them out in a list is annoying, but their damage output will be negligible almost. Fire a few plasma cannons into them and watch them fold.

I concur with Emperor XIX statement. I play a Deathguard army and field mostly Plague Marines. I think you could put me in the "obsessed with being Nurgly" category. (It's fun) I think it's a possibility that those that are having difficulty with Plague Marines might actually be having problems with power gamers.

Legionary
09-02-2009, 02:30 PM
Yes Plague Marines are broken. They should be T5 or FNP. For 23pts it shouldn't be both.

However, they're par for the course in the CSM codex. There's a reason that it's the powergamer's army of choice.

Unclehomefries
09-02-2009, 07:33 PM
One squad of plague marines sitting on an objective in cover didn't die to two Leman Russes, two chimeras, two squads of melta vets, and a HWS with las cannons in two turns of shooting. Mind you the Leman Russes had been shooting at them for a couple turns longer. Went from a victory to a draw.

True story

Limunpai
09-02-2009, 09:01 PM
Plague Marines play right into the spam game. Spamming plague marines along with terminators, obliterators, and HQ's in terminator armor (or the extremely powerful Daemon Prince) gives you a unified front of models that can't be harmed efficiently by bulk fire.

This synergy is really what makes plague marines a strong troops choice because it offers a durability level that troops choices usually don't have available to them. In addition, if you give plague marine squads personal icons, the termis and oblits can ride in on the plague marine tarpit to get in really close to the enemy really accurately.

In addition, the ability to take 2 special weapons without taking 10 men gives them the offensive punch that they would otherwise lack. I think this is really where they cross the line into broken. If they didn't have 2 special weapons until 10 men, they would be an extremely hardy troops choice that filled a cult troop niche. With the second special weapon at just 5 men, they give an extreme weight of valuable, never useless, special weapons that makes them too much of an ultimate selection.

DuskRaider
09-02-2009, 09:46 PM
Yes Plague Marines are broken. They should be T5 or FNP. For 23pts it shouldn't be both.

However, they're par for the course in the CSM codex. There's a reason that it's the powergamer's army of choice.

Sounds like someone can't beat Chaos :rolleyes:

I play Death Guard as my main army. Yes, Plague Marines are awesome. Yes, they are very hard to kill. Are they overpowered? No. An average army of Plague Marines is probably ALWAYS going to be outnumbered. In order to try a bring decent numbers, you're losing out on Elite and Heavy Selections. You have no Heavy Weapons, you rely on weapons that have, at most, a 24" range. If you're playing against an army that doesn't assault or play offensively, you're kind of screwed. Plague Marines are defensive in nature, going against a similar army and you're in for a war of attrition and a very long and VERY boring game.

So are they broken? No. Perhaps you just can't think of a way to play your own army to counter them.

BrotherAlpharius
09-03-2009, 04:22 AM
I play against Plague Marines and I'm just building a plague marine force. I'm doing it because I was bouncing around fluff ideas and got a great idea that eventually, naturally, ended with a Nurgle force. I always choose armies on fluff and model looks/modelling opportunities not competitiveness. As such I've played my fair share of overpowered and underpowered lists (one of my other armies is non-mech Tau!). Also, forces rise and fall in power - I've been playing 18 years so I've seen many incarnations. Another two years and GW will decide it's time to sell us another Codex and we'll see Plague Marines get nerfed - probably about the time I'll get my Plague Marines tabletop ready!

I think the real problem with the current Chaos Codex is the freedom to mix and match without theme. I think a DeathGuard themed force with no heavy weapons, is sufficiently specialised not to be broken - lack of range and tiny number of models are serious drawbacks. I think the problem comes when an army consists of two lash princes, all plague marine troops and obliterators - no theme, just all game winning power.

Chumbalaya
09-03-2009, 06:07 AM
Knock out their tissue paper Rhinos, Gork knows they don't have any other armored units worth worrying about.

Legionary
09-03-2009, 06:58 AM
Sounds like someone can't beat Chaos :rolleyes:
What nonsense. I collect Marines, Chaos and Imperial Guard. I have experience playing as Chaos and against Chaos. It is possible for someone to think the Chaos codex is a bit over the top without the implication they're bitter about losing to Chaos.

Sounds like you don't like Plague Marines; sounds like you just can't use them effectively. :rolleyes:

;)

RocketRollRebel
09-03-2009, 08:53 AM
They are probably the best troop choice in the game but I would say that they still can die. Just don't rely in your small arms to do it. Shooting them with las guns is just demoralizing. "okay I hit you on 4's, wound on 6's and your get 2 saves... Crap". But Big guns certainly take them down, Vindys, Battle cannons ect ect. Normal close combat units have a hard time with them in the assault as well. But more elite close combat troops can still knock them down. Hit them in close combat with a unit of Blood Crushers or Blood Letters or Assault terminators. That would certainly wipe that smug diseased grin off of their face.

At the end of the day, yeah they are a tough nut to crack but it can be cracked non the less.

PlaguedOne
09-03-2009, 09:17 AM
I don't feel as though they're overpowered. I tend to have issues being outnumbered. What annoys me the most though, are the players who cry cheese when I use nothing but Plague Marines for my troops. I've been an all-Nurgle player since 2nd Edition. It's not my fault people hate their current incarnation. And yet I still get flak for it.

The West Coast Knight
09-03-2009, 09:31 AM
I run a whole army of Death Gaurd led by Typhus with 3 10 man squads in rhinos and I can tell you they are not invincable.
Though the armys record stands at 17 wins 0 loss and 1 draw the ames are not a walk in the park.
The way to beat them has been stated in posts above hit them with melta and plasma and they go bye bye.
But one thing people tend to miss is their Initiative is only 3 charging in with some power weapons ( and yes bring a fist of some kind) or with Monstorous Creatures is bad news for the Plague boys.
For you gun line armies like Tau and Gaurd it gets even easier.
Max range for Plagues is only 24" stay back and hit them with lots of shots every turn and don't spread out the shots either concetrate fire on one squad at a time get rid of it then repeat.
If it takes you one turn of shooting to wipe out a 10 man squad you are still removeing close to 300 points worth with upgrades.

The West Coast Knight

DuskRaider
09-03-2009, 11:09 AM
What nonsense. I collect Marines, Chaos and Imperial Guard. I have experience playing as Chaos and against Chaos. It is possible for someone to think the Chaos codex is a bit over the top without the implication they're bitter about losing to Chaos.

Sounds like you don't like Plague Marines; sounds like you just can't use them effectively. :rolleyes:

;)

I absolutely LOVE my Plague Marines. I've had nothing but success with them, but what I was trying to say is there are setbacks with playing with an army consisting of Plague Marines. I started my Death Guard back in 3rd Edition, when I first got into the hobby. At that point, they weren't as powerful as they are now, but I didn't care. It was the theme and the fun of playing the army. Now they're more powerful... Cool, I'm glad. It's nice playing against Tau and making them waste Railgun shots on a single Plague Marine each round :D

I must also point out I don't use Mech either. I still play with the idea that Death Guard doesn't use transports or any of the other mechanized pieces. I will draw the line at Vindicators, though... I love those. I do also field around 14 Terminators at any given time, too... So they make up for the lack of Heavy Support.

Xas
09-03-2009, 11:34 AM
plague marines are not OP in any way.

for easy comparison we take 10 CSM with 1 icon of chaos glory VS 7 PM (160 vs 161 pts). both can have the same upgrades at same points cost. PM have fearless and pay another 5pts to home-in deamons and CSM have rerollable lds and included home-in for deamons.

the PM take a statistical 126 bolterhits to die and 14 plasma/battlecanon/... hits (4+ cover assumed) while carrying 5 bolters and 2 special weapons.

the CSM take a statistical 60 bolterhits to die and 20 plasma/battlecanon/... hits while carrying 8 bolters and 2 special weapons or 1 spezial and 1 heavy.

PM/CSM:

defense: 2,1 vs small rounds and 0,7 vs spezials.
offense: 0,625 small rounds and 1 spezial.

in my eyes this looks like a well rounded spezialist unit whose job is to survive small arms fire and deliver spezial weapons while beeing more suszeptible to spezial weapons themselfes and haveing allmost no capability to use small arms.

the only thing that makes PM strong is the bias towards small rounds fire the metagame has gone to combat orks (and a lesser degree guard) and will go to combat the february-nids.

if you want to cry out "broken" look at IG veterans:

for 70points you get a unit which takes 30 bolterhits or 20 plasma/battlecanon/... hits (assuming 4+ cover) to die while carrying a boltequivalent (vs t4) of 4,3 and up to 3 spezial weapons.

unit for unit you have a IG-V/CSM:
defense: 0,5 vs small rounds and 1 vs spezials.
offense: 0,542 small rounds and 1,5 spezials.

now calculate that the IG-Vs cost 70/160=0,4375 which means you get numbers that are all above 1.


so all in all PM arent that hot. I'm not telling you jsut theory I'm playing both chaos and IG and I allmost never take PM over normal CSM.

Crotch Lictor
09-03-2009, 02:09 PM
I recently had a Planetstrike game where 1 surviving gaunt took out a plague marine with a devourer. Granted the dice gods were on my side that time, but it was still funny. Off topic, but thought I'd share. They can be killed.

Aceshigh
09-03-2009, 02:25 PM
well i play PM's and i play them because of their story and the way the models look, but i do agree that they are a really good defensive troops choice and holding objectives they are champs.