another 2 hour time limit rant

[karandras]

I am sure that this has probably already been covered extensively, but I am new to the forum. I have been playing 40k regularly since the release of the 2nd edition boxed set. I have traveled to tournaments all over the country to include numerous Games Days, numerous GW GTs, Necro, Adepticon, Exterminatus, Ard Boyz, and countless Rogue Trader events and conventions, etc.

In 15+ years of gaming, I have never seen a tournament with only 2 hours allowed per round. I love the website and have checked out all of the BoLScon coverage that was posted on the old home page. A friend and I considered making the trip for the tourney despite the relatively short notice. While the expense of coming from Florida was significant, it was ultimately the 2 hour rounds that discouraged us from attending.

Based off of the army list and tactics articles that I have read on your site, it appears that csm mech along with marine mech and ork mech armies dominate the gaming scene there. If both armies are mech based, then players likely only have 5 to 8 vehicle models to move and shoot for the first two to four turns of the game. In this case, 2 hour rounds would be fine. However, if two foot slogging armies were to meet, I do not believe that 2 hours would be a fair amount of time for them to accurately complete a 2000 point game (nor 1850, or even 1750 for that matter). They would have to adopt certain so-called "speed play" mechanics such as not measuring accurately for movement or assault movement (measure one model - move the rest in the general direction). I just experienced a dreadful Ard Boyz game where my opponent was running over 200 tyranid models. He was basically flubbing his movement (i.e. - figs in the back going like 9" and not making difficult terrain rolls, etc) and we still barely completed 3 turns in 2 hours. Granted it was 2500 points and he was slow as syrup, but still.

I hope to attend BoLScon next year, but urge the organizers to allow 2.5 hours per round. I rather play 5 or 6 games with enough time, or time to spare, than squeeze in 7 hectic, rushed games. That's just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own, but this is a sentiment I have seen expressed by a lot of people. I think this is maybe being downplayed a little by the coverage (i.e. - the comment that people who didn't finish in 2 hours wouldn't have finished in 2.5 anyway). Certainly, with advance planning players can build their armies to be mech for this event so that they play faster, but if you run into an opponent who hasn't done the same, it could really suck to run out of time on turn 4 (or 3, or 5). Especially if you've spent over $1k to attend. If the organizers are adamantly opposed to increasing the time per round, maybe play up the mech angle and/or drop the points to 1500 or 1750.

Whatta y'all think?

[Jwolf]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Until we started playing tournaments with 2 hour time limits, we hadn't seen that, either. Once we did, we found that we were finishing games just as easily and having more fun, because there was less downtime and more gaming.

My comment on players not finishing in 2.5 hours was based on statistics I gathered from other tournaments and personal experience - some small percentage of people do not finish on time, and the time limits for the game do not seem to matter much for this percentage. I'm not denigrating the players who did not finish in any way; I am noting that some percentage of games do not get completed, no matter the time limits for rounds.
As to smaller points, the issue is again exactly the same - smaller or larger points don't actually make a difference in the percentage of games called at time rather than completed.

There is no way I can ensure that a player will not bring an army they are unfamiliar with and be unable to complete games in a timely fashion. I can say that we had two Horde Ork players at BoLSCon this year. One was at the center of 4 incomplete games on the first day (and did not participate on the second day); the other finished games on time. Be honest with yourself - would you have been able to finish the game you mentioned with 500 less points or another half hour to play?

Here are some of the things we did successfully to improve the round speeds this year:
1) Terrain set, and terrain values given in the rules packet.
2) Scenarios that were complex without being complicated.
3) Judges were quick to answer rules questions, generally coming to tables whenever we saw a Rulesbook or Codex touched.

[Lux]

I posted this several months ago on dakka when the 2hr limit discussion was the hot topic. When I moved to the Austin area in late Spring I wasn't used to the time limit either. 2000pts in 2hrs is standard play in the local store. In my first 40k tournament in the area I took a tyranid army that included roughly 60 without number gaunts, as well as the potential to dish out more than 12 templates per shooting phase. I finished 2 of my 3 games, and got through 5 turns in the game I didn't finish. The only game I didn't finish was vs. an all foot slogging marine list, and we probably could have finished if we hadn't chatted so much during the game.

I admit that my list didn't have 120 orks, but it wasn't all mech, it had just over 80 models, and the 2hr time limit wasn't a problem.

Lux

[Foreigner]

I played the fast horde ork player (admitted we know each other) at BolsCon and it was my longest game of the tournament at a whopping 1hr and 40mins

It was also the only mission I had go all 7 turns, and we had 2/3 my army in combat with 50% of his army at one point, extending the time turns took.

He had 157 models, all on foot.

We even played next to a table with another horde army player, and we were in the bottom of turn 2 before deployment finished there.

[Aims]

For the rest of you who did attend BoLSCon and hadn't done the two hour limits, what did you think of them? I've heard more people say they found they could do it just fine than those who said there was no way.

[Xaereth]

I personally thought it was fine. I was able to finish all my games in time. Actually though, I can't really remember playing in a tournament that allowed 2.5 hours per game besides 'Ard Boyz, and I go to a LOT of tournaments. Maybe the tournaments in my local area just do things differently than the rest of the country, but I was pretty skeptical when I first read the OP's post about never hearing of a 2 hour time limit. If thats the norm, I suppose it's pretty different where I'm from :P

[chapterhousestudios]

Honestly,

I would prefer 2.5 hours as well. Granted I did ok in the 40k tournament, most of my games went to turn 5, but I think I only TRULY finished one game, the rest as I said hit turn 5.

I did feel rushed, and I hate looking at my opponent and mentioning the time, I felt like an ***.

That extra 30 minutes can make a huge difference in game play as well, as I am sure most of us quick moved our armys, not really measuring all the movement to save time, etc etc.

I know my buddy only got to turn 4 on one game and 5th turn could have made all the difference for him, but his opponent said no (even with 17 minutes left).

So I would vote yes, 2.5 hours please (I dont need 30 minutes between games honestly, drop it to 15 or 20 minutes besides lunch if you need to save time).

Nick - Salamander Commander
Chapterhousestudios

[mortal888]

All our tournaments in Beaumont were 2 hours per game and most games finished with plenty of time to spare.

[Aims]

It's not just you guys that need to be considered when you're talking about the time between rounds. Those of us doing the scoring and the pairings need time to get everything settled and put in and generated properly. That should not be rushed.

I started with 2 hour tournaments. I've never had more time than that, and I've never needed it. I learned to play fast. I learned how to work with the time from the onset, so it makes a huge difference as far as what I feel like I'm capable of doing.

[WolfAramis]

GARR! I gotta make next year's con! Argh! Life just keeps getting in the way!


Back on topic....may I remind all of 40k in 40 minutes? I've watched (not played) several games, and haven't seen much issue with shortened time limits.

[sorri]

I still consider myself new to the game (I've been playing for about a year), and I only really ever get a chance to play in tournaments. I don't think any of my opponents would say that I play slowly, but I do find myself getting hit against the 2 hour time limit (with WH), especially when I play against a horde army. I do have to say that I'm still getting faster every game, all the tourneys I play in have 2 hour limits, and I still got completely through either 5 or 6 of my games within time at BoLSCon.

Personally, I think the shorter time helps to make sure you prep ahead of time, know your rules, start learning rules for other codexes, and really just become a better overall player. I'd say that the 2 hour time limits should be kept.

[mathhammer]

I knew coming into the tournament that the 2hr time limit was going to cause me some issues since a I play a bit slow and I have a fairly large horde army. (72 tyranids).

One thing I did was to keep track of the time of each turn to try to force myself to move faster. While I completed some of my games I didn't finish them all. (Which hurts my army more than my opponents army funnily enough)

I support the 2 hour time limit.
Personally between now and next year I plan on working on decreasing my time usage.

on a side note though in a tournament you may be required to measure every movement which limits how much time you can shave off your turns.

[Duke]

It's not just you guys that need to be considered when you're talking about the time between rounds. Those of us doing the scoring and the pairings need time to get everything settled and put in and generated properly. That should not be rushed.

I started with 2 hour tournaments. I've never had more time than that, and I've never needed it. I learned to play fast. I learned how to work with the time from the onset, so it makes a huge difference as far as what I feel like I'm capable of doing.

I completly agree, I have found that I actually like time limits. There are a few reasons: Like iin official chess games it isn't the best player who wins, but the player who can think the clearest in the fastest time (Which is like real war). If this means some people make 'dumb,' mistakes... Oh well. Also, I can tell my wife exactley what time I will be done... Which means I get to come back next time! yay!

I would say that the only downside to time limits is you don't get to know your opponenet as well, but that can still be achieved in the 'after game'

Duke

[karandras]

I guess I will talk to local organizers and see if we can't try out the 2 hour time limit in the near future. Local tournaments generally have used the 2.5 hour "round" to include terrain placement, deployment, and the game itself. Maybe we move slower in the deep south. I guess if terrain was fixed by the organizer ahead of time, this could help save some time. JWOLF, I will hope to see you at BoLScon next year!

Question: what is an "OP"??? Was this a negative comment aimed at me, or does it simply mean other player or other poster??? I am new to forums so I am not familiar with all of the cyber-slang! LOL!

[Foreigner]

I guess I will talk to local organizers and see if we can't try out the 2 hour time limit in the near future. Local tournaments generally have used the 2.5 hour "round" to include terrain placement, deployment, and the game itself. Maybe we move slower in the deep south. I guess if terrain was fixed by the organizer ahead of time, this could help save some time. JWOLF, I will hope to see you at BoLScon next year!

Question: what is an "OP"??? Was this a negative comment aimed at me, or does it simply mean other player or other poster??? I am new to forums so I am not familiar with all of the cyber-slang! LOL!


OP means original poster. Nothing negative in any way.

At BolsCon terrain was generally in place and did not require moving, as well as the rules for every piece of terrain were covered in the rules packet, so there was no arguing about how to play certain pieces.

The 2-hour time limit therefore involved deployment and game play. Thats it.

Missions were pre-set, terrain defined, so it was basically just a roll off for first turn / table sides then put the models down and go.

[RealGenius]

we still barely completed 3 turns in 2 hours. Granted it was 2500 points and he was slow as syrup, but still.

I recommend playing more games with 2 hour time limits. It just takes practice, like everything else.

Plus if you are including setting up and discussing terrain in the 2.5 hours, then there's really not that much difference between what you are used to and BoLSCon.

As a point of information, locally the first round of Ard Boyz-- almost all the 2500 point games finished in under two hours. I think over 90%, but I don't have the exact numbers.

Playing quickly is a good skill to have. It is easy to play slower if you have time and want a slower pace, but if you are used to a slow pace it is almost impossible to speed up without practice. While I was adjusting to 2 hour games I put a timer on my table in plain view so I could keep myself on track during my turn.

[Bulwark]

One of the things that also let BOLSCon run smoothly at 2 hours was that the rounds generally started on time. Having a 2.5 hour game that startes 15 or 20 minutes late isn;t really saving you any time.

[Jwolf]

A few comments:

2K in 2 Hours will be one of the things you can expect at BoLSCon; if enough players registered for BoLSCon next year respond to a survey given at ~ the 6 weeks out point with 'Yes, I want to play games with long time limits' I may add another track with fewer games and longer time limits. Note that I am not promising to do so; I am just being open to considering it.

30 minutes is a tight timeframe to process and verify results and get the next round up. Reducing the time between rounds is essentally impossible - we had rounds with score sheets still not in 15 minutes after dice down, and almost every round required discussion with one or more pairs of participants to deal with scoring issues. Year two should see at least twice as many participants, which means that we should expect to have similar issues.

[mkerr]

So I would vote yes, 2.5 hours please (I dont need 30 minutes between games honestly, drop it to 15 or 20 minutes besides lunch if you need to save time).

30 minutes is the absolute shortest time we can have betwen rounds. Every delay that we had starting a round (we slipped at least 15-20 minutes each day) was caused by difficulty getting the pairings done in 30 minutes.

I'm sure that we'll do a better job of that next year, but I'm also hoping to have double the players next year...


30 minutes is a tight timeframe to process and verify results and get the next round up. Reducing the time between rounds is essentally impossible - we had rounds with score sheets still not in 15 minutes after dice down, and almost every round required discussion with one or more pairs of participants to deal with scoring issues.

I think a better system of getting results back early is worth discussing, including judges actiively collecting and helping players get their results back (accurately), a bonus point for each player who turns in his results (filled out accurately) before time is called, etc.

Getting all of the results back within 10 minutes of a round ending would be awesome.

-- mkerr

[mathhammer]

, a bonus point for each player who turns in his results (filled out accurately) before time is called,
-- mkerr

hate that idea. I know I had games that went to the wire with one dice roll at the end to decide it. Causing us to end early, you might as well say that the rounds are 1 hour 50 minutes and 10 minutes to have the results in.

and yes I support the 2 hour game limit.

[RealGenius]

Yeah, I'm not sure about awarding points for non-hobby/game related stuff.

But maybe it can be used as a tie breaker?

[thehod]

I love the idea of 2 hour rounds. Blowbowl has timed turns and so does chess. Some people may have trouble with it but I think it also promotes fast thinking on your feet and tight grasp of the rules. I will definitely be showing up to BLOScon 2010.

Nick prepare a cot for me