A few questions

[depuce]

played a game against a friend of mine, and ie got some questions on what happen and was wondering if what he did was legit.
1st he had a skimmer behind a building(large biscuit tin) he couldnt draw line of sight to my skimmer nor could i or even see each others, in his shoot phase he declared he was shooting me and he said skimmers have a pop up rule so can pop up over building and shoot... not being able to find my rule book i accepted he was right but im not sure he is now as i cant find it anywhere, he done this a few times in other games too.

2nd i had a unit shooting one of his and i had another of my own units in front of mine barley cover 30% of my unit, he said he'd recive a cover save from my own unit, now im sure when shooting past your own guys you completey ignore them i may be wrong.

so if anyone could clear this all up for me it would be very helpful

[Nabterayl]

played a game against a friend of mine, and ie got some questions on what happen and was wondering if what he did was legit.
1st he had a skimmer behind a building(large biscuit tin) he couldnt draw line of sight to my skimmer nor could i or even see each others, in his shoot phase he declared he was shooting me and he said skimmers have a pop up rule so can pop up over building and shoot... not being able to find my rule book i accepted he was right but im not sure he is now as i cant find it anywhere, he done this a few times in other games too.
That's completely wrong. There is no "pop up" rule, or any other rule, that lets a skimmer or its guns count as having a position other than exactly what you see on the table.


2nd i had a unit shooting one of his and i had another of my own units in front of mine barley cover 30% of my unit, he said he'd recive a cover save from my own unit, now im sure when shooting past your own guys you completey ignore them i may be wrong.
You get to ignore models in the firing unit, but not other friendly models. So if at least 50% of your firing models had to shoot through a friendly unit in order to hit at least 50% of the target unit, your friend would indeed receive a cover save. Sounds like that might not have been the case, but without knowing exactly how the shooting unit, the intervening friendly unit, and the target unit were arranged, it's impossible to say for sure. Your friend definitely had the right idea, though.

[depuce]

Arh cheers mate the cover saves one i get, and now i know there is defo no pop up rule i can make sure he doesnt do it again coz thats cost me alot of of tanks z him

[wkz]

Careful: if you're shooting through a friendly unit, but said friendly unit (and other terrain) only provides cover to less than 50% of the opponent's targeted unit, they DO NOT get cover.

The entire opponent unit can only get cover if 50% or more of that unit's models gets some kind of cover for whatever reason...

[Tynskel]

wait, I don't have access to my rulebook, but I remember the difference between hard cover and shooting through units is that if you are shooting through a unit, you are providing cover, regardless of %.

Could be utterly wrong on this, I don't have my rulebook in front of me.

[Nabterayl]

You're confusing conferring a cover save with being in cover, Tynskel. There are really only two ways to get a cover save:
A special rule says a unit gets a cover save (e.g., a psychic power or kustom force field)
50% of the models in the unit are "in cover" from the perspective of 50% of the models in the firing unit.
A non-vehicle, non-monstrous creature model is In Cover if the line of sight from the firer has to pass between (which does not include passing over) two models in an intervening unit. The model is still In Cover even if none of the intervening models actually obscure the model; the fact that the LOS passes through an intervening unit is enough (page 22). However, that just makes the model In Cover, which is not enough to get a cover save; see #2 above (also from page 22).

For instance, suppose ten space marines are shooting through ten scouts at ten orks. Any space marine whose LOS goes through the scout unit to any ork will make that particular ork In Cover from the perspective of that particular space marine. However, you still need to apply #2 above. If all ten orks are In Cover from the perspective of 4 space marines, but not In Cover from the perspective of the other 6, then the orks do not receive a cover save even though some space marines are shooting through an intervening unit. Similarly, if only 4 orks were In Cover from the perspective of all 10 space marines, the orks would not receive a cover save. Only if at least 5 orks are In Cover from the perspective of at least 5 space marines do the orks get a cover save.

[Tynskel]

I am not sure that you are reading that right. I am pretty sure that the rule for shooting through units just states that they are in cover, and are granted a cover save.

[Nabterayl]

Whether a model is in cover is never the end of the question when it comes to that model's unit receiving a cover save. Until you get to page 22, the cover rules are written with the assumption that the unit is entirely in cover. In Units partially in cover, on page 22, they add the next level of complexity - what if the entire unit is not in cover? At that point they say:


If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves. .... Of course being in cover or not often depends on the position of the firer as well as the target. If only one model is shooting, it will be easy to tell how many models in the target unit are in cover from the firer's point of view. If multiple models are shooting, you will need to work out how many models are in cover the point of view of the majority of the firing models that are in range. If the majority of the firers have a clear shot to the majority of the models in the target unit, the unit receives no save. Otherwise it does.

The only rule we have for shooting through units or area terrain is:


If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain ... or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is not completely visible to the firer.

The rules don't say that you receive a cover save simply because LOS goes through an intervening unit. In fact, the bottom diagram on page 23 makes it clear that shooting through units follows the 50%-to-50% rule: "The majority of unit B is in cover behind other models."

[Tynskel]

hmm... the only thing is that if you had quoted that correctly, it states the target is in cover, stating nothing about how much cover in cover.

[wkz]

hmm... the only thing is that if you had quoted that correctly, it states the target is in cover, stating nothing about how much cover in cover.

Indeed. "Who is in cover" only states the relationship of a SINGLE enemy model against a SINGLE shooting friendly model.

When it comes to UNITS, the 50% rule starts showing up.