Mid-assault PFP tokens question

[thecactusman17]

I had an awkward situation come up today, which I didn't realize had lead to this issue until after the dust had settled (in my favor thankfully).

I have unit A , which has a single pain token and is composed of two units (infantry and an IC, in this case earlier Incubi and Vect). The attached IC is at a higher initiative step. Unit A attacks enemy Unit B, which has an attached IC of its own.

My IC kills the opponent's IC, earning me the second pain token which grants Furious Charge to the entire combined friendly unit. The IC has already made his attacks, but the next unit is a few steps down the initiative ladder. The book clearly states that the unit gets the pain token immediately and the pain rules don't suggest that there is a wait time for any of the rules to take effect.

Do the friendly units at the lower initiative step get furious charge for assaulting a unit that turn? What if the resulting initiative bump would bring them up to the initiative step where the pain token was generated?

[DrLove42]

I'd say they don't get the benefit from furious charge, as technically they've got it after the assault move is made.

If it was their first pain token, giving them FNP they'd gain FNP for the end of the turn

[thecactusman17]

I'd say they don't get the benefit from furious charge, as technically they've got it after the assault move is made.

If it was their first pain token, giving them FNP they'd gain FNP for the end of the turn

I'm starting to think it would affect the next initiative level, my copy of the BRB says this about furious charge: "Models with this skill"...(lore)..."In a turn in which they assaulted into close combat they add +1 to both their Initiative and Strength characteristics when attacking in close combat"

Note the key operating words here: Assaulted (past tense) and attacking (present tense). There is a check made before attacks are made that says that previously, the unit assaulted into combat, and right now, they add I and S as they attack. I would think that the check is made every time a model would attack, as that seems to be the way it is checking it in the rules: Did the unit assault (Y/N)? Are they attacking now (Y/N)?

Further, I could suggest something else: If the check is done as they are attacking, it is possible to dip down to the next initiative step, then rise BACK to the same initiative step, though this would create nightmarish questions about wound allocation. I would suggest that as a house rule this scenario be denied, instead creating a "half" step where things happen previous to the first step but before additional steps down the initiative ladder.

[Wildeybeast]

Whilst it doesn't feel right, RAW would mean they can gain Furious Charge after making the assult move but before attacking. According to RAW they could gain the furious charge ability at any point during their turn before they actually make their attack, the only thing that affects it is that they have assulted that turn.

I'm not entierly sure though that you get a pain token for killing an IC attached to unit. Once attached, are they not all counted as one unit? The rules on IC's don't make this clear, but given that they are forced to act together and p48 refers to them as a "combined unit" and "part of the unit", I'm assuming they all count as one unit. A

[DrLove42]

No IC's give a 2nd pain token, so you would get 2 for a unit with an IC attatcehd

You make a good point on the rules....with that evidence i think you'd be right....but its definently an argument for RAW or RAI

[Wildeybeast]

Scratch my last point, I've just checked the FAQ and you do indeed get a pain token for killing an IC attached to a unit.

So yes, they can gain and benefit from furious charge part way though their turn. The way the rule is worded could lead to the bizzare situation where you could theoretically start the turn with furious charge, lose it part way through for some reason and still get the bonus when you assult into combat. Odd, but there we go. You might be able to use this a time for making an argument for RAI over RAW, but I'm not going to stir that hornets nest.

[Caldera02]

A supporting argument could be the Blood Chalice rule for blood angels. It works very much the same way as to this situation. I will look it up later today and see what I can come up with. Intriguing...

[Necron_Lord]

I think it all hinges upon the Furious Charge USR which grants bonuses on the turn they assault into combat. If one interprets 'assaulting into combat' as making the assault move, then they wouldn't get the bonus. This would require having the rule before assaulting.

I think from the fluff standpoint and conceptually, they have already charged by the time they made CC attacks, so it wouldn't be 'furious'. I interpret it as being really pumped up when charging into assault, so it must be possessed before the charge moves are made.

Regarding sanguinary priests, they confer the furious charge ability on units within a certain distance, so the distance is measured after assault moves are made and just before the attacks are made to determine who gets the benefits. I don't think that applies here, and that your incubi would NOT benefit this round.

I am interested in what others think, though.

[thecactusman17]

I think it all hinges upon the Furious Charge USR which grants bonuses on the turn they assault into combat. If one interprets 'assaulting into combat' as making the assault move, then they wouldn't get the bonus. This would require having the rule before assaulting.

I think from the fluff standpoint and conceptually, they have already charged by the time they made CC attacks, so it wouldn't be 'furious'. I interpret it as being really pumped up when charging into assault, so it must be possessed before the charge moves are made.

Regarding sanguinary priests, they confer the furious charge ability on units within a certain distance, so the distance is measured after assault moves are made and just before the attacks are made to determine who gets the benefits. I don't think that applies here, and that your incubi would NOT benefit this round.

I am interested in what others think, though.

The Blood Angels example actually makes this scenario work in my favor. The unit has already declared a charge and moved into base to base. That check for distance happens before any attacks have been made, but it does not specify specifically that it happens before the assault (it can't, declaring a charge is the first step in the assault itself), so we have at least one precedent that says that mid-assault, a unit can gain Furious Charge.

In my case, the gain occurs immediately after one unit gains Furious Charge that will affect a separate unit that attacks later in the same combat. It occurs before they make any attacks.

Remember, the FC rule doesn't say "a model assaulting," it says "a model that has assaulted that is attacking." The check is made simultaneous to when the attacks are made.

[Necron_Lord]

The Blood Angels example actually makes this scenario work in my favor. The unit has already declared a charge and moved into base to base. That check for distance happens before any attacks have been made, but it does not specify specifically that it happens before the assault (it can't, declaring a charge is the first step in the assault itself), so we have at least one precedent that says that mid-assault, a unit can gain Furious Charge.

In my case, the gain occurs immediately after one unit gains Furious Charge that will affect a separate unit that attacks later in the same combat. It occurs before they make any attacks.

Remember, the FC rule doesn't say "a model assaulting," it says "a model that has assaulted that is attacking." The check is made simultaneous to when the attacks are made.

I look at the Furious Charge USR as it says that units with this rule get +1 S and +1 I when charging into assault. That means they have the rule already, and when they charge, they get the above bonuses. Basically my point is, the Incubi weren't furious when they charged. My point is that the furious charge was gained when combat was being fought, which follows the 'charge'. I view combat comprising the following steps:

Step 1: Assault moves (people charge, difficult and dangerous terrain tests are made, purifying flame, etc.)
Step 2: Actual combat (CC attacks resolved in initiative order)
Step 3: Resolution (Combat results tallied, morale tests, no retreat saves, sweeping advance, consolidation, etc.)

My point, in a nutshell, is that for a unit to get the bonus, it must have the Furious Charge USR in Stage 1 and it didn't in your example. Regarding the Sanguinary Priest, they have the USR because of the blood chalice in Step 1, but it is an area affect. The ruling in the FAQ just states when you determine which units get benefits of the area affect.

Again, this is just how I view it, but I think it is consistent, though others may disagree.

[thecactusman17]

I look at the Furious Charge USR as it says that units with this rule get +1 S and +1 I when charging into assault. That means they have the rule already, and when they charge, they get the above bonuses. Basically my point is, the Incubi weren't furious when they charged. My point is that the furious charge was gained when combat was being fought, which follows the 'charge'. I view combat comprising the following steps:

Step 1: Assault moves (people charge, difficult and dangerous terrain tests are made, purifying flame, etc.)
Step 2: Actual combat (CC attacks resolved in initiative order)
Step 3: Resolution (Combat results tallied, morale tests, no retreat saves, sweeping advance, consolidation, etc.)

My point, in a nutshell, is that for a unit to get the bonus, it must have the Furious Charge USR in Stage 1 and it didn't in your example. Regarding the Sanguinary Priest, they have the USR because of the blood chalice in Step 1, but it is an area affect. The ruling in the FAQ just states when you determine which units get benefits of the area affect.

Again, this is just how I view it, but I think it is consistent, though others may disagree.


Just found that THIS EXACT QUESTION was answered in the Blood Angels FAQ:

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of a
Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model
makes its close combat attacks.


Basically, the individual model gets to use the Furious Charge rule when it makes the attacks, not before, and doesn't need to enter combat with the rule to make use of it.

If it did, then you wouldn't have the FC rule from the Blood Angels after moving in from outside the bubble. The FC rule isn't checked at all until the individual model makes the attacks, if it was then the ruling there would reflect that. If that WASN'T the case, specifically, we would see that the unit had the FC rule and kept it even if models within the unit were removed so as to leave them outside the bubble when they eventually got to their own initiative step.

[Necron_Lord]

Just found that THIS EXACT QUESTION was answered in the Blood Angels FAQ:

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of a
Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model
makes its close combat attacks.


Basically, the individual model gets to use the Furious Charge rule when it makes the attacks, not before, and doesn't need to enter combat with the rule to make use of it.

If it did, then you wouldn't have the FC rule from the Blood Angels after moving in from outside the bubble. The FC rule isn't checked at all until the individual model makes the attacks, if it was then the ruling there would reflect that. If that WASN'T the case, specifically, we would see that the unit had the FC rule and kept it even if models within the unit were removed so as to leave them outside the bubble when they eventually got to their own initiative step.

The point is that they have furious charge at the end of step 1. In your case, however, you gained the ability in step 2. I am of the opinion that you need it in step 1 to get the bonuses, but until there is an FAQ addressing this situation, it will probably be a house rule.

[thecactusman17]

No, I got the PFP token at step two in the prior initiative step. At that point, the lower initiative unit wouldn't have reached step two--nobody would be attacking yet.

The FAQ clearly states: FC happens WHEN THE MODEL MAKES ITS ATTACKS. Not the unit. The unit can make as manys attacks as it wants or can, until the individual models in question make actual die rolls not a single element of the rule is active or deactive.

[s_harrington]

Be real careful using past FAQs to set precedent. It can really bite you in the ***.

Per Tyranid FAQ:

Q: If a unit of Tyrant Guard, joined by either by a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord, launches an assault in which the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord is killed before the surviving Tyrant Guard have struck any blows, will they gain Strength and Initiative bonuses due to Furious Charge even though they didn’t have this special rule at the time when they initiated the assault?
A: No.

If we use other's faqs, your don't get the FC from the PFP tokens gained mid combat.

[thecactusman17]

Be real careful using past FAQs to set precedent. It can really bite you in the ***.

Per Tyranid FAQ:

Q: If a unit of Tyrant Guard, joined by either by a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord, launches an assault in which the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord is killed before the surviving Tyrant Guard have struck any blows, will they gain Strength and Initiative bonuses due to Furious Charge even though they didn’t have this special rule at the time when they initiated the assault?
A: No.

If we use other's faqs, your don't get the FC from the PFP tokens gained mid combat.

Frankly, this ruling is wrong according to the BRB. But if that's how they intend for it to go in that codex...

Well, there's a reason that codex sucks.

I emailed the question to GW, specifically to Dan and Jim, the What's New guys, asking if they could help or pass it on. I think that this is a really odd scenario that could benefit from the input of guys who helped create them. If anyone knows who I could contact directly, please let me know!

[Wildeybeast]

I look at the Furious Charge USR as it says that units with this rule get +1 S and +1 I when charging into assault.

But it doesn't say that. It says "in a turn in which they assulted into combat" meaning they only need to possess it at some stage of their turn, before the actually make their attacks, not when they actually make the assault move. I think it is certainly intended to mean you have to have it when assulting, but RAW is fairly clear. I think they've just worded the rules badly, but that is an occasional problem with RAW.

[Necron_Lord]

But it doesn't say that. It says "in a turn in which they assulted into combat" meaning they only need to possess it at some stage of their turn, before the actually make their attacks, not when they actually make the assault move. I think it is certainly intended to mean you have to have it when assulting, but RAW is fairly clear. I think they've just worded the rules badly, but that is an occasional problem with RAW.

I broke down the assault phase previously into three steps.

Step 1 (The 'Assault' Step) Assaults are launched, difficult and dangerous terrain tests are made, purifying flame, defenders react, etc.

Step 2 (Fighting the Close Combat) The dye was cast in step 1, now attacks are resolved in initiative order.

Step 3 (Close Combat Resolution) Combat Results are determined, morale checks made, sweeping advance, no retreat saves are made, consolidation, pile-in moves, etc.

Read the Furious Charge USR again:

Models with this skill are known for the wild ferocity of their assaults. In a turn in which they assaulted into combat they add +1 to both their initiative and strength characteristics when attacking in close combat (note this has no effect on the initiative tests for sweeping advances).

Note the phrase 'assaulting into combat'. That is the Step 1 and Step 2 I mentioned above. The Incubi in the example in this thread and the Tyrant Guard in the Tyranid FAQ did not have this rule during Step 1 (Basically the 'Declare Assaults' thru 'Defenders React' sections inclusive in the BRB (pp 33-34)). Instead, Furious Charge was gained in the 'Fighting a Close Combat' section (BRB pp. 34-39) which I called Step 2. Step 3 is the 'Determine Assault Results' section through the 'Consolidation' section (BRB pp. 39-40) where applicable. The whole point is that there is the 'assault' phase, 'close combat' phase, and 'resolution' phase in each close combat. If a unit has furious charge in the 'assault' phase of the CC, they get bonuses in the following 'close combat' phase only. In the example in this thread and in the Tyranid FAQ, the Furious Charge ability was gained in Step 2 ('Close Combat' phase), so the window for gaining the bonuses for that 'Close Combat' phase had already closed.

[Angelus Mortifer]

It's worth noting that not every race benefits from "the same Furious Charge" as outlined in the main rulebook. The USR are general and apply to every race, UNLESS their specific codex overrides the rule with a variation on the same theme. For example, Space Wolves that have Furious Charge through some means use the BRB version, and as such have the ability at the start of the Assault Phase before models are moved. Blood Angels with their Priests gain the ability at the point of attack (when attacks are rolled for) and not before. This is a specific deviation from the main rule and has been designed purposefully so. Pdf Blood Angels used the BRB version of Furious Charge (at the beginning of the assault phase) before Chalises were introduced and subsequently changed that. It creates another way of playing with a different race in a different way but with ultimately the same effect at the end of it (+1S/I when charging that turn).

Hence, it's perfectly plausible for the Incubi to jump an Iniative level mid-way through a combat by having an attached IC claim a kill point (as described above) by gaining a pain token before they themselves have attacked - purely for the fact that PFP is a possible deviation from the main rule, because of it's mechanic of granting a Pain Token immediately.

Not saying it's correct, just that it's certainly possible.

[Necron_Lord]

It's worth noting that not every race benefits from "the same Furious Charge" as outlined in the main rulebook. The USR are general and apply to every race, UNLESS their specific codex overrides the rule with a variation on the same theme. For example, Space Wolves that have Furious Charge through some means use the BRB version, and as such have the ability at the start of the Assault Phase before models are moved. Blood Angels with their Priests gain the ability at the point of attack (when attacks are rolled for) and not before. This is a specific deviation from the main rule and has been designed purposefully so. Pdf Blood Angels used the BRB version of Furious Charge (at the beginning of the assault phase) before Chalises were introduced and subsequently changed that. It creates another way of playing with a different race in a different way but with ultimately the same effect at the end of it (+1S/I when charging that turn).

Hence, it's perfectly plausible for the Incubi to jump an Iniative level mid-way through a combat by having an attached IC claim a kill point (as described above) by gaining a pain token before they themselves have attacked - purely for the fact that PFP is a possible deviation from the main rule, because of it's mechanic of granting a Pain Token immediately.

Not saying it's correct, just that it's certainly possible.

But the situation which initiated the thread is like the situation in the Tyranid FAQ. There is a trigger which allows a unit to get Furious Charge. For the Tyrant Guard it is the Hive Tyrant dying while they still live and for the DE units it is gaining the second or more pain token. When it happens when there is close combat going on, it does not apply, for they have already 'charged'. For the Blood Angels, the Blood Chalice confers the ability to make a Furious Charge, the only question is when is the range determined during Step 1. Is it before anyone moves, after everyone moves, or at any time during Step 1? The FAQ states that the 6" range is determined after all assault moves have been made, but it is still Step 1. For Ragnar, the range is determined before any assault moves are made and his ability is a one-off.

[Wildeybeast]

If a unit has furious charge in the 'assault' phase of the CC, they get bonuses in the following 'close combat' phase only. In the example in this thread and in the Tyranid FAQ, the Furious Charge ability was gained in Step 2 ('Close Combat' phase), so the window for gaining the bonuses for that 'Close Combat' phase had already closed.

But the wording of Furious charge does not support this. If GW wanted that to be the case, they would/should have written something along the lines of 'models who possess this rule when assulting' rather than "in a turn in which they assulted inot combat". The Tyranid FAQ does support the argument that if you don't have at the start of the assult phase it doesn't count, however the Tyranid FAQ is codex (and indeed unit) specific and so unfortunately can't be used as cast iron support for another codex specific example.
I agree with you that it was almost certainly intended to mean that you need to have it when making your assult move, but thanks to poor wording, RAW means you only need to have it 'on a turn in which you assault'. Not 'at the start of that turn' or 'at the start of the assult phase' just some time during that turn. All I'm saying is that, in this case, if you follow RAW, then you can gain it any point before you physically roll for atttacks. Personally in this situation I would go for RAI as it is nonsensical to do otherwise, but there we go.

[Necron_Lord]

But the wording of Furious charge does not support this. If GW wanted that to be the case, they would/should have written something along the lines of 'models who possess this rule when assulting' rather than "in a turn in which they assulted inot combat". The Tyranid FAQ does support the argument that if you don't have at the start of the assult phase it doesn't count, however the Tyranid FAQ is codex (and indeed unit) specific and so unfortunately can't be used as cast iron support for another codex specific example.
I agree with you that it was almost certainly intended to mean that you need to have it when making your assult move, but thanks to poor wording, RAW means you only need to have it 'on a turn in which you assault'. Not 'at the start of that turn' or 'at the start of the assult phase' just some time during that turn. All I'm saying is that, in this case, if you follow RAW, then you can gain it any point before you physically roll for atttacks. Personally in this situation I would go for RAI as it is nonsensical to do otherwise, but there we go.

I think this is one of these situations where you have to examine everything. The Tyranid FAQ gives more information to interpret what the 'proper' reading of the rule is. As a different example, if you read the Power from Pain rule in the Dark Eldar codex, ANY unit could have a pain token, only the units with Power from Pain could generate new Pain Tokens by killing units if one read it RAW. However, there was an FAQ which stated that only models with the Power from Pain rule could benefit from pain tokens which wasn't written in the codex. One has to take everything into consideration and not just cherry pick what one wants.

Another example could be for Psyker Battle Squads. I was always of the opinion that their Weaken Resolve could reduce the Ld of Stubborn units, but this was a minority position and not addressed in the IG FAQ. However, the Grey Knights FAQ says that the Ld for Stubborn units CAN be reduced by some sort of grenade, so the reasoning that supported Weaken Resolve affecting stubborn units was backed up by an FAQ from a different army.

Regarding this thread, it looks like units which gain Furious charge when blows are being struck do not gain the benefits for that round, using the Tyranid FAQ as something which addresses this specific occurrance.

[Arien]

Standard Disclaimer: I'm at work, have no rulebooks with me, and am purely responding to posts in this thread based on information given.

I am sorry to have to side against you, Necron Lord, however the Blood Angels FAQ for Blood Chalice, and the Nidz FAQ for the Swarmlord / Tyrant Guard situation BOTH support the RAW (Letter of the law, as opposed to spirit of the law) version of the Furious Charge USR.

In the Blood Angels version, FC checks are made just before the unit in question attacks, after assault moves have been made. This makes sense, as the unit must be in range of the model giving FC for them to benefit when they make their attacks.

In the Nids version, FC is lost before attacks are made, so even though the unit had FC when it charged (say the swamlord died to dangerous terrain), it no longer has FC when attacks are made, and therefore does not benefit from the USR.

If both of these follow the RAW version of FC, then gaining FC mid-assault will undoubtedly affect lower initiative steps.

I hope this is explanation enough of my viewpoint, if you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact me directly.

[thecactusman17]

Standard Disclaimer: I'm at work, have no rulebooks with me, and am purely responding to posts in this thread based on information given.

I am sorry to have to side against you, Necron Lord, however the Blood Angels FAQ for Blood Chalice, and the Nidz FAQ for the Swarmlord / Tyrant Guard situation BOTH support the RAW (Letter of the law, as opposed to spirit of the law) version of the Furious Charge USR.

In the Blood Angels version, FC checks are made just before the unit in question attacks, after assault moves have been made. This makes sense, as the unit must be in range of the model giving FC for them to benefit when they make their attacks.

In the Nids version, FC is lost before attacks are made, so even though the unit had FC when it charged (say the swamlord died to dangerous terrain), it no longer has FC when attacks are made, and therefore does not benefit from the USR.

If both of these follow the RAW version of FC, then gaining FC mid-assault will undoubtedly affect lower initiative steps.

I hope this is explanation enough of my viewpoint, if you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact me directly.

Actually,t the awkward thing about Tyranids is that they GAIN FC when the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord dies, but the FAQ gives no explanation as to why it won't affect them that assault. This leads to the following question: Is that because there is an unnamed or unacknowledged intention of the writer (completely possible) or is this because the editor didn't read the rule carefully (catching the individual models element of the rule or the wierd multiple tenses in the USR description).

My FLGS TO has come to the following decision: The FC is gained immediately per RAW, but the Initiative bonus cannot meet or exceed a unit that has already attacked in close combat. Rather nice of him, as it doesn't affect the strength bonus at all. Naturally, we will play by any official ruling that GW creates if and when it happens.

[Arien]

Ah my mistake, I didn't realize it was the death of the IC that granted FC to the squad. In that case that is awfully poor consistency, and I withdraw my priase of the well-thought-out answers as to why the effects of FC should be gained from a mid-assault pain token, though still by RAW it should occur.

Anyone have the specific wording from the Nids Codex on the death of the IC and the way it grants the unit FC? I'd like to see the original wording to try to gain some sort of idea on why they would rule against it being granted to the squad that assault.

Thanks anyway.

[Necron_Lord]

Ah my mistake, I didn't realize it was the death of the IC that granted FC to the squad. In that case that is awfully poor consistency, and I withdraw my priase of the well-thought-out answers as to why the effects of FC should be gained from a mid-assault pain token, though still by RAW it should occur.

Anyone have the specific wording from the Nids Codex on the death of the IC and the way it grants the unit FC? I'd like to see the original wording to try to gain some sort of idea on why they would rule against it being granted to the squad that assault.

Thanks anyway.

Sure. It is on p. 35 of the Tyranid Codex in the Tyrant Guard entry. The rule is called Blind Rampage, and it is described as follows:

Blind Rampage: If a Hive Tyrant is killed whilst part of a unit of Tyrant Guard, the surviving Tyrant Guard immediately gain the Furious Charge and Rage special rules. These abilities last for the remainder of the battle.

[Tynskel]

I am disappointed in the Tyranid FAQ.

[Arien]

I guess the only way to look at it now is an FAQ is a clarification of their interpretation of the rules, and therefore although many TOs use them, they are not set in stone.

In any Tournament I run I would allow the Tyrant Guard to be affected by Furious Charge from the situation described, since it is worked out when attacks start and not before.

Perhaps if GW could be consistent with rulings (it would take some effort to check previous rulings but I'm sure it's possible) it would create a more balanced competitive scene which quite a few players expect from tabletop wargaming. Maybe we will see this kind of thinking in the future. :)