Dred's bending bullets?

[w7west]

Happened to me a few weeks ago in a game against one of the guys at my LGS. I let him take the shot but I definitely was not pleased with the physics behind this situation.

Not sure if this pic will work but here:

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv86/w7west/situation.png

If image does not show, here is the photobucket link:

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv86/w7west/situation.png


So basically what is going on here is that his autocannon dred (polygon + double lines for autocannon) is shooting at my raider (triangle), over a rhino (rectangle).

The red line represents the arc of sight that is blocked from my raider to the dred. Only things above this line would be able to see the raider. As you can see, the ends of his autocannons are protruding above this line due to rare earth magnets letting him pivot the arms vertically.

My problem with this was that although the barrels were indeed not blocked by the rhino, they were clearly pointing in a trajectory that would sail far above my raider.

Does the weapon need to be aligned with it's target in the vertical plane in order to shoot?

If so, the autocannons would need to fall below the red line in the diagram, meaning they would not have line of sight.

If not, would you be ok with someone who models his autocannons sticking at an extreme angle, perhaps even 90 degrees taking shots dead ahead?

Thanks guys, hope the image works.

[Slug]

Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (to compress, as in no decorative pieces like banners or wings.)

That's page 16 left hand column, paragraph two, first three line and a summary of the rest of Check Line of Sight and Pick a Target.

So therefore the shooting model has to be able to physically see what it is shooting at not just have a part of the shooting model in LOS. So in your case the dread would have to have the sarcophagus/head actually in line of sight, I can't actually tell if this is the case for your situation, but it seems not. So you were right in that he shouldn't have been able shoot, though this is regardless of whether the guns can or cant get a barring on your unit.

[Multigeneral]

page 58, little rulebook, under "Vehicle weapons and line of sight"

"When firing a vehicles weapons, piont them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models." This exact statement is also on page 72 under "Walkers Shooting". So no not a legal shot as the the line of sight, if traced properly according to the rules, would have been blocked by the rhino. Politely ask this guy to read his rulebook.

[AngelsofDeath]

If it sounds like BS and looks like BS....then its BS. Like it says "True line of sight" This guy must have been trying to milk it for all it was worth.

Just wondering what army was he playing?

[Xenith]

As before, vehicle LOS is determines by looking down the length of the barrel, in this case, the barrel is pointing up in the air and he can shoot nothing.

Incidentally, this rule means that the SoB exorcist can shoot nothing. Ever.

[SotonShades]

Incidentally, this rule means that the SoB exorcist can shoot nothing. Ever.

Doesn't it use the barrage rules and thus ignores the normal restriction?

[eldargal]

Not in the new rules, it is just Heavy D6. It is one of those situations where a more sensible interpretation of the rules is needed as the missile fire up out of the tube first. Unlike this dreadnought situation where the player basically cheated.

[DrLove42]

Theres a difference between a mortar....and what I'm guessing from the picture is a Psybolt Autocannon rifle

[pathwinder14]

page 58, little rulebook, under "Vehicle weapons and line of sight"

"When firing a vehicles weapons, piont them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models." This exact statement is also on page 72 under "Walkers Shooting". So no not a legal shot as the the line of sight, if traced properly according to the rules, would have been blocked by the rhino. Politely ask this guy to read his rulebook.

I second. You are correct sir. No LOS to/from Dread.

[FTE-Charge!!!]

This situation is just plain sad. What is even worse is the frequency that it happens at my LGS.

My store is filled with power gamers, their new shiny codices, and horrible social skills.

The icing on the cake? I get treated like a jerk when I politely reference rules to players pulling TLOS like this! I am the bad guy bc I reference the rules and challenge TLOS maddness like this?! You would think I insulted their mother by the look on their face when I stop their shooting phase to quickly come over and check the LOS from their angle (not that it is needed all of the time). As soon as someone can see the tip top of your helmet.... "game over man, game over"

[w7west]

Just wondering what army was he playing?

Gay knights


As before, vehicle LOS is determines by looking down the length of the barrel, in this case, the barrel is pointing up in the air and he can shoot nothing.

Incidentally, this rule means that the SoB exorcist can shoot nothing. Ever.

This is basically what I was wondering about, and the man is an excellent rules lawyer who managed to thoroughly confuse any point that I could make about the barrels needing to be pointing at the raider.

In the case of the exorcist, there is no way for the barrels to point at what it wants to shoot at. The gun is not barrage, just a straight d6 str 8 shots, at least that is how it worked in the codex. I refused to buy that piece of garbage that white dwarf called a redone codex so I am not sure how or if they changed this.

We can assume there is some sort of homing action going on with the exorcist or that the shots fire similarly to a mortar projectile, but how can we support with rules that an exorcist gets to shoot at something 12" directly in front of it while a dred with his psyrifles sticking straight up does not get the same privilege?

I understand what multigeneral has said to be correct and had it not been for the man's superb legal defense worthy of defending Michael Jackson himself, I probably could have stopped the shot with referring to tracing los from the mounting position along the barrel.

The question of the exorcist is now open for discussion. I myself would gladly allow a sisters player to ignore the mounting clause since he probably wants to shoot at things other than valkeries right on top of him. I am weary to point out multigenerals point to this man before coming up with a defense for the exorcists since I am quite certain he would use the mounting argument against the sisters player here, and nobody wants that to happen.

[FTE-Charge!!!]

I know it may be difficult to do since it is your LGS, but this has worked for me on a few rare occasions;

Simply say "okay, if that is how you want to play, you dont need an opponent. You win." Pack up, find another game and have some real fun.

Like I said, its not subtle and might not be taken well depending on your group, but think about it. This is a game. A game between two people. Nothing is full proof. A certain level of understanding, logic and sportsmanship are needed.

If this guy isnt willing to talk with you, but instead confuses you like a lawyer, then he obviously missed the communication and interaction part of the hobby. I would rather not play this person and enjoy my games then go through with it if he pulls stuff like that.

[Slug]

Just apologizing for my little bugger up with which rule I was quoting, that was just for infantry, though there are still some useful points to remember from that if people are trying to shoot at you and all they can see is a banner or such. :o

[DarkLink]

The rule's pretty simple. Point it out, then demonstrate that the Dreadnought guns are pointing up in the air too high to hit anything.

Your opponent then will probably make some hot air, to which you will respond with a loud and empathetic "Bull****!". You can throw in some comments about cheating if he gets really bad.

Rinse and repeat until your opponent either gives up and starts playing by the rules, or gives up and you can go find a game against someone who isn't cheating.

[MMEagle]

You look down the barrell of the weapon to check. First of all its the rules, secondly its common sense.
Ministry of silly walks, not silly shooting.

[steelmage99]

"Looking down the barrel"...hehe,

I get a mental picture of an Ork Big Mek shouting; "Do I have LOS, lads?!?" and an Boy standing in front of the vehicle, looking down (into) the barrel say; "Looks fine, Boss!!". :)

[Caldera02]

"Looking down the barrel"...hehe,

I get a mental picture of an Ork Big Mek shouting; "Do I have LOS, lads?!?" and an Boy standing in front of the vehicle, looking down (into) the barrel say; "Looks fine, Boss!!". :)

HAHAHAHA, that made me laugh. Thanks :P