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Akkon Sek
07-31-2009, 01:58 PM
Not entirely certain if this is a 'rules' question per se. Figured this was as good a place to ask as any. One of those "Meh... that's weird. I'll find out one day" questions.

It has always puzzled me that special models with inherent Power Fists detail an Initiative in their respective Codex higher than 1. By way of example: Pedro Kantor has a listed Initiative of 5. All of his close combat attacks are going to be @ Initiative 1, yes? Why bother?

Psynikal
07-31-2009, 02:03 PM
He still makes Sweeping Advances at Initiative 5

Akkon Sek
07-31-2009, 02:04 PM
He still makes Sweeping Advances at Initiative 5


Aha! Good point.

Joey Boor
07-31-2009, 02:53 PM
Calgar has a sword.

Jipin
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
I guess you don't have to use the Power Fist and can instead bludgeon people with Dorn's Arrow instead? Not really an answer was it really!

Akkon Sek
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I guess you don't have to use the Power Fist and can instead bludgeon people with Dorn's Arrow instead? Not really an answer was it really!


I believe a model armed with a "normal" and a "special" weapon resolves all attacks in close combat with the special weapon. In the case of the Power Fist + Dorn's Arrow Micro Punisher Cannon of Gory Doom: that would be like... twenty six bazillion attacks @ Initiative 1 for Pedro. Don't think there's a choice unless the model is armed with two "specials".

Note: it is possible that my disdain for the the goody-two-shoes, corpse-worshiping Space Marines may have seeped through a bit there. Apologies. 8)

Joey Boor
07-31-2009, 05:35 PM
Pedro has to strike at I1 since he has only 1 special close combat weapon. Calgar can choose to strike at I5 since he has a power sword.

BuFFo
08-01-2009, 09:17 AM
Pedro has to strike at I1 since he has only 1 special close combat weapon. Calgar can choose to strike at I5 since he has a power sword.

Pedro can just make normal close combat attacks (punching, kicking, head butting, whatever) at his base initiative if you choose to.

Dingareth
08-01-2009, 09:33 AM
Not any more BuFFo, that was 4th edition. Now there is the stipulation that you must use a Special CCW if you have one.

Jipin
08-01-2009, 12:25 PM
Not any more BuFFo, that was 4th edition. Now there is the stipulation that you must use a Special CCW if you have one.

Which page is that stipulation on?

Furthermore, some would say he's fighting with two single handed weapons which are both special (one being a special Storm Bolter, the other a Power Fist) so could choose which to use.

Hal'jin
08-01-2009, 02:07 PM
That sounds more like a Fantasy rule to me, can't remember anything like that... though it might've slipped my attention.

Arschbombe
08-01-2009, 02:27 PM
It's on page 42 and in the errata. If you have a normal CCW and a special CCW all of your attacks get the bonuses and penalties of the special weapon. The only exception is for fists, hammers and claws where the stipulation is that you don't get the bonus attack, but all attacks use the special weapon profile still.

If you have two special weapons like Marneus Calgar does, you can choose which one to use.

Akkon Sek
08-01-2009, 03:20 PM
Which page is that stipulation on?

Furthermore, some would say he's fighting with two single handed weapons which are both special (one being a special Storm Bolter, the other a Power Fist) so could choose which to use.

pp.42, 5th ed. Rulebook.

"Special Weapons" are specifically defined (Witchcblades, Power Fists, Force Weapons, Lightning Claws, etc.). Lower right-hand corner lays out the one normal/one special, two special, etc. rules.

Jipin
08-01-2009, 04:28 PM
My point is that Dorn's Arrow is a Special Weapon. So would fall under the "Two special Weapons" option and could choose to punch with his left rather than his right. That point is not in the errata.

I, certainly, would say that if you wanted to strike at regular I & S you could hit me with your fist/head/leg if you wished.

Akkon Sek
08-01-2009, 04:46 PM
My point is that Dorn's Arrow is a Special Weapon. So would fall under the "Two special Weapons" option and could choose to punch with his left rather than his right. That point is not in the errata.

I, certainly, would say that if you wanted to strike at regular I & S you could hit me with your fist/head/leg if you wished.

In your games, it's your call of course. But I would respectfully disagree. It doesn't fall into any of the categories detailed in the rulebook as 'special', nor is it a close combat weapon.

TheKingElessar
08-01-2009, 05:14 PM
Precisely, just like, say, a Bolter, it's not a CCW, and so cannot be used in Assault in any circumstance.

Homebrews obviously notwithstanding.

gold 'orn silvateef
08-03-2009, 12:08 PM
I'm gonna ask a question here instead of a new thread because it's subject has been indirectly introduced by Arschombe


...The only exception is for fists, hammers and claws where the stipulation is that you don't get the bonus attack, but all attacks use the special weapon profile still.

So, if you have a power fist or "powa klaw" and a pistol, do you still get the +1 for having 2 CCWs? Do those jumbo, mechanized, electrified weapons really count as CCWs?

Dingareth
08-03-2009, 12:11 PM
So, if you have a power fist or "powa klaw" and a pistol, do you still get the +1 for having 2 CCWs? Do those jumbo, mechanized, electrified weapons really count as CCWs?

No, this is quote clear actually. In order to gain +1 Attack you would have to have 2 Power Klaws, or Power Fists, or Thunder Hammers, or Lightning Claws.

gold 'orn silvateef
08-03-2009, 12:49 PM
Ah, thanks. I thought that having two of the same meant you could reroll to wound but I guess that is just a special lightning claw rule?

Dingareth
08-03-2009, 12:53 PM
Correct, that's only Lightning Claws.

Old_Paladin
08-03-2009, 01:46 PM
I'm going to have to go with the camp that states that you can choose which weapon to use.

If you have 2 of the same weapons, it states that "all attacks use the bonuses and penalties."
-ie, must use
For using a ccw and special weapons is says that attacks "benefit from the specials bonuses." (no use or penalties mentioned).

That makes it sound like if the rules aren't a benefit for you, you're not forced to use that weapon. Striking last is a penalty, so you could use the benefit of striking at init of the normal weapon.

Arschbombe
08-03-2009, 07:14 PM
For using a ccw and special weapons is says that attacks "benefit from the specials bonuses." (no use or penalties mentioned).

That makes it sound like if the rules aren't a benefit for you, you're not forced to use that weapon. Striking last is a penalty, so you could use the benefit of striking at init of the normal weapon.

That text was changed in the errata so that attacks with a normal ccw and a special get all benefits and penalties from the special. I posted it above.

Akkon Sek
08-03-2009, 07:28 PM
It's pretty clear to me the rules are stating that possessing a single special weapon means it _must_ be used in all close combat attacks. For good or ill... no choice.

Trust me, I'd prefer the ability to choose. Just can't justify it with the rules as written.

RealGenius
08-03-2009, 07:31 PM
Precisely, just like, say, a Bolter, it's not a CCW

A bolter has a rifle butt, which according to the description on pg 42 falls under "Normal Close Combat Weapons". In fact, a bolter is a two-handed close combat weapon.

StrikerFox
08-04-2009, 04:20 AM
A bolter has a rifle butt, which according to the description on pg 42 falls under "Normal Close Combat Weapons". In fact, a bolter is a two-handed close combat weapon.

wait... no.. bolters dont..they have a short lil stub at the end.. i mean, okay, TECHNICALLY you can take the whole bolter and use it like a hammer or something.. but why??
and now most basic marines are equipped with a bolt pistol, which counts as a single CCW.

anyway, as everyone posted above, gotta use the special weapon. if you have two, THEN you can choose..