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Necron2.0
12-16-2011, 08:56 AM
As you know I'm sure, >>the issue of counterfeiting<< (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/12/outrage-counterfeiters-from-china.html) is on the main news feed.

All I can say is, "<*GASP*> Counterfeiting in a communist nation whose stated purpose is to destroy the West. Whoda thunk?!!"

People always seem to be shocked when they find out that counterfeiting is going on in China, and they always seem to be placated when Chinese officials come out huffing and puffing how they'll "get to the bottom of it," but come on people! What do you think the Chinese economic revolution has been based on? Counterfeiting in China is not only overlooked, it's actively supported.

For the US, China should have never been put on the preferred trading partners list. In fact, we shouldn't be doing business with China at all, and any company/organization that DOES do business with them should have been brought up on treason. But, welcome to the modern world, where business interests buy and sell politicians like we sell plastic dudesmen, and business "leaders" only have enough foresight to see to their next bonus/golden parachute.

yrdetraxe
12-16-2011, 09:48 AM
You're right but still there must be something done against them!
We cannot let something like this happen and just say, "well that's the way it goes..."

And I've started by writing an mail to FW / GW informing them of this shop.
That's the least I can do.

Wildeybeast
12-16-2011, 11:36 AM
I'd agree that the west shouldn't trade with China (though on the basis of their rather shoddy human rights record rather than their lax approach to forgery) but sadly that ain't going to happen. China would just trade with all those developing nations who have similar attitudes to human rights/IP and we end with an economic cold war.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer
12-16-2011, 04:31 PM
Wow. Y'all are turning duplicate models into a diatribe against a nation of over a billion people? That's a bit've an overreaction.

On an economic scale, although distasteful, such knock-offs are actually kinda important. If costs are marked up to a point that the risks associated with producing and purchasing a knock-off are overwhelmed by the profits/savings, then that's a sign that the price of the official product is becoming too heavy for the market.

Scrumblegort
12-16-2011, 05:03 PM
Wow. Y'all are turning duplicate models into a diatribe against a nation of over a billion people? That's a bit've an overreaction.

On an economic scale, although distasteful, such knock-offs are actually kinda important. If costs are marked up to a point that the risks associated with producing and purchasing a knock-off are overwhelmed by the profits/savings, then that's a sign that the price of the official product is becoming too heavy for the market.

Isn't this kind of a diatribe about Games Workshops prices? ;) Really though, they make cheap knock offs of everything in China. Even relatively cheap kids toys get knocked off. The problem with China is there is essentially no risks to counterfeiters, even if they get stopped they typically just move on to a different product or wait a few years.

Lockark
12-16-2011, 05:22 PM
Thier website apparently has blowen up since this story posting. What exactly did they look like/were?

Just casts of the orginal modles? Or just haliouresly bad house scuplted stuff?

thecactusman17
12-16-2011, 05:27 PM
"Stated goal to destroy the west?"

Funny, here your stated goal is to isolate over a billion people, the majority of whom have little or no impact at all on American or Chinese politics, and you accuse China of threatening world peace.

Here's what I think: So long as China continues to be a place to do business on the cheap, companies from everywhere, including the US, will do business with them. That's just how capitalism works. As far as counterfeit goods goes, it's not like we don't have problems with counterfeiting and cheap knockoffs right here in the states, or overseas in Europe, Mexico and South America. But China is the boogeyman, because at some point they claimed to be Communist (they never were) and intending to destroy the west (not just laughable from a military perspective, but disastrous from an economic perspective).

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer
12-16-2011, 05:39 PM
Thier website apparently has blowen up since this story posting. What exactly did they look like/were?

Just casts of the orginal modles? Or just haliouresly bad house scuplted stuff?
Mainly resin/pewter casts of existing GWS stuff, small selection, but with lots of forgeworld things. Those who've bought from them describe the model quality as being on par or even sometimes superior to GWS/forgeworld.

Lockark
12-16-2011, 05:49 PM
Mainly resin/pewter casts of existing GWS stuff, small selection, but with lots of forgeworld things. Those who've bought from them describe the model quality as being on par or even sometimes superior to GWS/forgeworld.

Wouldn't surprise me. Alot of times the low quality counterfeiters don't stick around for long.

I have a friend who got a bunch of brand new Eldar super heavies cheap from a dude in Russia on Ebay and have a similar experience. It was so good we thought for sure they were the real model. After he bought them, the guy had another one up fairly quickly. In hind sight we're pretty sure they were counterfeit. Guy is still going strong. (For how fast he was getting them, and how cheap he was selling them. It was the only thing that made sence.)

Another friend bought a bunch of IG chimeras cheap off Ebay, and they were a bunch of poorly cast resins. The guy isn't around on Ebay anymore.

Sister Rosette Soulknyt
12-16-2011, 06:38 PM
Right lets all ban business with China, yeah thats gonna work...
So who are you going to get to fill hundreds of factories to make all those name brand clothing you wear each day, lug around on your back, carry, or use in everyday life??
Oh yeah lets all use our countries people, good idea, until you count that those same companies would be unwilling to pay you the minimum wage as that costs way to much for them, compared to some Asian country they can sucker in to pay what we all would concern a shocking and immoral low wage everyday.

So tell me, lets say we take product A, its made in China, they pay there staff $50 a week if im being really nice, to sweat and work so many long hours for there hard money, now lets make product A in the UK/USA/AUS and now we have to pay $5-20 an hour, add overtime, loading, sickleave, tax, superannuation, Union Fees etc etc.
Which one do you really think company A wants to spend to make product A??

Saying lets stop buying Chinese products is like starving your way of life, seriously take a good look how many products we use everyday that alone is made in just China.
Are you really shocked that someone there, or that matter in any country started copying GW products? If you had the means, would you not do it for just your own person armies, not even taking into account you could make money out of it.

Necron2.0
12-16-2011, 08:38 PM
Heh. Unemployment growing steadily in the developed world. The middle class steadily disappearing. The gap between the richest and the poorest steadily growing. Unions, corporations and politicians squabbling over control of a dwindling economy - fighting daily over who gets bailed out or whose budget gets cut. Infrastructure in decay everywhere. And yet there are those who have the unmitigated gall to pretend that trading with a slave-labor market like China is a good thing, or that it's somehow immoral to restrict their access to our markets.

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

I will agree, however, that the bolt has been shot. Nothing for it now but to hang on and ride this flaming wreck to the ground.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer
12-16-2011, 08:50 PM
You don't need to be mired in blissful ignorance to look at "communist nation whose stated purpose is to destroy the West" and think the writer's taking it too far.

And trade is a very good thing for a market that's in decline. A US without fiscal relations with China's pretty hard to imagine - of the US national debt, the largest slice of it is owed to China.

Regardless of any of this, there are places for discussing politics. "40k General Discussion" isn't one of them. I'm thinking I'll probably skip replying to this topic now (I'm certain I willy be sorely missed :P); have fun.

billytwix
12-16-2011, 09:20 PM
What is the website? Somebody pm me i need some chinese goodness!!!!

yrdetraxe
12-17-2011, 02:33 AM
Just read the Post on the Blog-Page....
There is a full working link in there.

Lane
12-17-2011, 03:25 AM
Let's not forget that as manufacturing jobs move to China and other far east countries the factories shut down. Then in many cases the machinery is sold to somebody in India or the far east. That reduces our capacity to produce without purchasing new equipment, greatly increasing the cost to do so here.

gridespider
12-17-2011, 07:37 AM
ID like to take this opportunity..... to thank Mr Big Red.. Thank you Mr Red..thank you... its going to be one happy Christmas!!!! GOD BLESS YOU !!! BIGRED!!!!

snikrot
12-17-2011, 09:03 AM
Does anyone have the link because the one on the post is down. i would like to look at this site for Informational purposes :)

TheStrategist
12-17-2011, 12:38 PM
Ditto. A working link or a PM with the link would be much appreciated. :p

wittdooley
12-17-2011, 12:46 PM
What website is under discussion here?

GrandmasterRay
12-17-2011, 05:25 PM
bump

Lockark
12-17-2011, 09:55 PM
Just read the Post on the Blog-Page....
There is a full working link in there.

It was censored soon after it was posted, leaving only the link to their parents web sights. I never got a chance to look at the sight before it was removed.

DJRevel
12-17-2011, 11:37 PM
So....where is this website again?

As someone who is newly getting into the hobby and sucks at painting...I don't really want to spend hundreds of dollars to paint miniatures when I suck at it.

I already paid $60 for a rule book, $35 for my army book, $30 for a ruler/counters/template set, and around $70 for paint, I think that's enough money.

When it's upwards of $50 for 5 miniatures those things should come pre-painted and assembled already. Not everyone is a hobbyist and some ppl just want to game.

gridespider
12-18-2011, 01:13 AM
http://www.miniatureshobby.com/index.php?main_page=products_all

Lane
12-18-2011, 03:15 AM
I noticed they even state
"Most of our miniatures are not original.
So they don't have original colour box,but the kit is high quality,ready to assemble and paint."

Good thing they only accept paypal. I would never knowingly give my credit card info to a site based in china that openly acknowledges they are involved in illegal operations.

fuzzbuket
12-18-2011, 05:27 AM
the thing im annoyed about is all the westerns who are supporting this illegal activity because it will save them a few quid :(

@DJ revel

$70 on paint?! $60 on a ruel book and $30 on counters?!

black reach rule book: ebay: $10
black/white/skintone/basecolour/silver = 5 pots of paint, from vallejow say $15*
1 measuring tape from b&Q less than $5
some dice = you must have a old monopoly set somewhere :P or about $3 online

and ive saved you about $130! now go buy some legit minis :D


-fuzz

* or get some amazingly handsome miniture painter t paint your minis at VERY low prices \/

p.s. SELF PROMOTION!

Grailkeeper
12-18-2011, 08:30 AM
My question is why are people outraged? GW hasn't treated its customers particularly well, should we be outraged on behalf of a multinational?

eldargal
12-18-2011, 08:39 AM
If I wanted to buy cheap chinese rubbish, I would buy cheap chinese rubbish. I don't, so I won't. There will be always some tightfisted idiot who thinks saving a few dollars is better than getting a quality product, I'm not outraged by that I just think they are stupid.:rolleyes:

GrandmasterRay
12-18-2011, 08:45 AM
Woot. Thanks guys. Now GW knows what captain hammer felt like after the death ray explodes. "I think this is what pain feels like!" Then I'm going to go play vassal just to be in the evil league of evil.

Lexington
12-18-2011, 10:59 AM
If I wanted to buy cheap chinese rubbish, I would buy cheap chinese rubbish. I don't, so I won't. There will be always some tightfisted idiot who thinks saving a few dollars is better than getting a quality product, I'm not outraged by that I just think they are stupid.:rolleyes:
I'd agree, but having seen said product in person, it's actually kind of hard to understand why FW's product is so error-ridden in comparison. These guys do really solid, well-detailed casts, moral problems aside.

gcsmith
12-18-2011, 11:17 AM
If people buy these GW dnt get money to update armies and make sculpts. I just want these thugs to crash and burn

fuzzbuket
12-18-2011, 11:31 AM
Woot. Thanks guys. Now GW knows what captain hammer felt like after the death ray explodes. "I think this is what pain feels like!" Then I'm going to go play vassal just to be in the evil league of evil.

lol vassal iusbt htat bad: its non profit, yeah the minis are free BUT they arnt real minis :P

@grailkeeper:

how hasnt it treated customers well? im now fond of the if theres a defect in your finecast we will give you another, so lets buy a calgar and look for every little error, :P

MaxKool
12-18-2011, 01:41 PM
lol vassal iusbt htat bad: its non profit, yeah the minis are free BUT they arnt real minis :P

@grailkeeper:

how hasnt it treated customers well? im now fond of the if theres a defect in your finecast we will give you another, so lets buy a calgar and look for every little error, :P

Well, mabye you have been lucky.
But im sick of not getting what I buy, then having to wait for a replacement... because all the junk on the wall has defects.

4 Stormlords later i just gave up... every single one had a defect of some kind...
Necron Overlord... 3 of them and gave up. 1st had a broken stave, next had a big void where the chest wires are... 3rd had bubles in the cloak.. i take that as i can fix it.
Every single Failcrap mini ive bought has had a flaw, and had to be replaced. and somtimes there is no stock to replace it with... again... not getting what I want.

GW has horrible QC with finecast. Ive yet to be happy with a puchase from the get go. This is completely not acceptable with the money we are paying and the size/resources of the parent.
I get better casts from ANYONE else ive ordered resin from...

If these guys make better FW than FW..... hmmmmmm I think things like this shed some light on how little QC goes into to some of the GW.

Any decent resin producer would have thrown away the theunderhawk molds by now and made new ones. It took my buddy 6 months before he was readto to paint it... so much **** to fix, warps... ect..
Yet they continue to use flawed molds....

My "new" Emp. Champion still has the same casting flaws as the metal one.... again... cheepasses..

Maelstorm
12-18-2011, 02:19 PM
The brand new Forgeworld Thunderhawk I built this summer was a complete nightmare. I would not recommend the kit to anyone. Mis-cast, warped beyond belief and it had HUGE sprue blobs that required a bandsaw and belt sander to remove!

Forgeworld should be ashamed.

DO NOT encourage them to make any more by purchasing them until they make new molds and improve their quality.

Lane
12-18-2011, 08:24 PM
My question is why are people outraged? GW hasn't treated its customers particularly well, should we be outraged on behalf of a multinational?

If they get away with pirating GW products how long before they branch out to smaller companies or other products. Would you feel the same if they started undercutting placed like Secret Weapon, Scibor, etc? How about if they started selling copies of rulebooks from Privateer Press, Pathfinder or D&D? If the Chinese pirate companies wanted to they could make exact copies of those books and sell them cheaper because they had little or no development and marketing cost.

You may not believe it but our hobbies are a very small market and most game companies have fairly small profit margins. We also have very little influence in the government. If we allow pirates to make even a small foothold, by purchasing from them and proving the market is there, then expect some companies to be driven out of business. You may not like GW but how would you feel if their competition also went under. Or worse, GW was the only survivor.

gcsmith
12-18-2011, 08:53 PM
Shesh I barely know anyone who buys a thunderhawk based on price, and anyone who does has the patience to fix the kit, Id be surprised if it would cost soo much to replace thats why they aint bovered.

w7west
12-19-2011, 01:57 AM
All I can say is, "<*GASP*> Counterfeiting in a communist nation whose stated purpose is to destroy the West. Whoda thunk?!!"



Regardless of what the rest of this thread was about, I highly doubt China would want to destroy the western world when that is the precise source making China the fastest growing economy in the world. No Chinese official is working on a secret plan to drive GW out of business to stick it to the west. Why would they, they make all of the plastic.

GrandmasterRay
12-22-2011, 12:12 AM
How about if they started selling copies of rulebooks from Privateer Press, Pathfinder or D&D?

I would be less inclined to buy from the pirate because these companies keep their prices reasonable. I can buy a rulebook to play an ENTIRE GAME (Pathfinder) for the price of a single terminator box... And if I still couldn't afford that, they provide alternatives (downloadable pdfs) so that I can still enjoy their game on a shoestring budget. You can still find the books pirated of course, but if no one feels the need to look for them...

GW is pricing themselves out of their own market. When people want something, and want to pay for something but just can't, someone will be there to provide them product for the prices people are willing to pay. To some people, some money is better than no money. That's just the way it is. Is anyone surprised that this appeals to people? Why is there a market for the pirates in the first place?

Counterfeiting is wrong, and because of this I did not buy from them, but it's a symptom.

And touching on the legality of the situation, let's try to keep things in perspective. If you claim that you do not speed on a regular basis then you are the extreme minority. Speeding is illegal because it kills people. Counterfeiting does not kill people (directly anyway, they could be an organization that does other bad things but they could also be feeding a starving chinese village). So lets try to keep that in mind while we are calling people idiots for buying counterfeit toys. It's likely that we are all just as idiotic, but for different reason.

eldargal
12-22-2011, 02:09 AM
Counterfeiting would still occur even if GW prices were cheaper, because a small Chinese outfit can always undercut their prices. So long as people continue to convince themselves that buying from a counterfeiters is anything but morally bankrupt, these people will continue to hurt other peoples businesses.

GrandmasterRay
12-22-2011, 10:26 AM
But why is it any worse than the speeding that everyone has done, and still does? Granted, this is a post about counterfeiting, not speeding, but lets not pretend that speeding isn't worse than buying counterfeit goods just because the legal penalties are less.

Buying counterfeit goods (no deaths, and hardly anyone does it) = morally bankrupt

Speeding (deaths, and everyone does it) = ...not as morally bankrupt?...

My point is that the vast majority of us are guilty of much more heinous crimes than buying counterfeit stuff. Buying counterfeit goods is wrong, but before we judge other people for doing it, make sure your moral compass is calibrated correctly.

eldargal
12-22-2011, 10:55 AM
Speeding* is morally bankrupt, you risk killing someone.:) I don't speed (or I should say our designated drivers don't speed, I don't drive). That most people speed sometimes doesn't make it better, just like the fact most people illegally download music/films doesn't make it right. Is speeding worse? Yes, counterfeit models won't kill anyone. But it is still morally bankrupt.


*Obviously there are exceptions, speeding up to avoid causing an accident or whatever, but for general purposes I mean to just going faster out of impatience/thrill seeking/whatever.

Necron2.0
12-22-2011, 12:14 PM
Regardless of what the rest of this thread was about, I highly doubt China would want to destroy the western world when that is the precise source making China the fastest growing economy in the world. No Chinese official is working on a secret plan to drive GW out of business to stick it to the west. Why would they, they make all of the plastic.

Oh, the plan isn't secret. It's been out in the wide open for years - numerous people have commented on it, and have been ignored. As for China's stated goals, I believe Mao's Little Read Book © is still required reading in China, at least for party officials. It has been several years since I read a translation of it,but I recall there being several references to western running-dog imperialists, and how it was the People's duty to overthrow them. Mao's goal was for that to be accomplished by force of arms, but the current regime has been accomplishing it through economic means.

And part and parcel to that is undermining Western economic strength through counterfeiting. It started with luxury items like Gucci handbags and designer jeans, but now it's common throughout every economic tier, with pretty much every product conceivable. In fact, the counterfeits were so good, the counterfeiters were licensed to produce the "real" products. Again, this isn't news. Analysts had been commenting on it for years, but nobody paid attention, and now we're living with the consequences.

But all this is largely moot, and wasn't the point of my original post. All I intended to say is that discovering counterfeit GW products in China isn't actually news.

wittdooley
12-22-2011, 01:12 PM
It's really amazing, if you think about it, how high the quality Chinese produced products have become over the past 10 or so years. If the unemployed 10% in the US was actually willing to work, I don't know that we'd get the same kind of quality anyways.

archimbald
04-20-2012, 12:16 PM
* or get some amazingly handsome miniture painter t paint your minis at VERY low prices \/

p.s. SELF PROMOTION!

if theres three people in a three some, i can see why your called handsome...
:p:p




jj

fuzzbuket
04-20-2012, 02:51 PM
if theres three people in a three some, i can see why your called handsome...
:p:p




jj

why yes i paint the minatures with my hands holding a brush what else did you think i held my brush with :P lol

Cuddy
04-21-2012, 01:52 AM
the thing im annoyed about is all the westerns who are supporting this illegal activity because it will save them a few quid :(

@DJ revel

$70 on paint?! $60 on a ruel book and $30 on counters?!

black reach rule book: ebay: $10
black/white/skintone/basecolour/silver = 5 pots of paint, from vallejow say $15*
1 measuring tape from b&Q less than $5
some dice = you must have a old monopoly set somewhere :P or about $3 online

and ive saved you about $130! now go buy some legit minis :D

Lol, not that anything you said was wrong, but just the way you said it:

Don't support these knockoffs instead of GW!
Support Ebay instead of GW! :P