Shooting within vehicles

[Nachodragon]

One question I have about the FAQ and vehicles is what is considered shooting and special rules?

Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire
points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special
rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66)
A: No.

Are psychic powers considered special rules and/or wargear? The 'other than shooting' does that count psychic shooting attacks? Can someone Jaws from within a vehicle?

MORE IMPORTANTLY, what about open topped vehicles? Open topped vehicles don't have fire points so what affect does that have?

[Caldera02]

Page 3 of the BRB FAQ states that you can draw line of sight from a fire point with psyhic powers that are not shooting.

Open topped vehicles do in fact have fire points....the entire vehicle.

[Nachodragon]

Completely glossed over the other FAQ entries and focused on the new ones.

For open-topped vehicles though, it states they do not have fire points.
"Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead. all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle. Open-topped vehicles do not have specific access points..."

The rest talks about embarking/disembarking and assault.

[BuFFo]

Open topped vehicles just got better it seems, not because they got better, but because normal vehicles got worse.

Huzzah DE and Orks!

[Caldera02]

Completely glossed over the other FAQ entries and focused on the new ones.

For open-topped vehicles though, it states they do not have fire points.
"Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead. all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle. Open-topped vehicles do not have specific access points..."

The rest talks about embarking/disembarking and assault.

Specfic is the key word, as in they have some but not specfically defined. And goes on to tell you how to fire from the "fire points" it doesn't specfically have.

[Majorcrash]

i think whats meant by special rules are: a squad next to a razorback with a bloodangel apothicary, would not recive the feel no pain benifit as the apoth is in the vehicle. or a banner in a transport would not function until it deployed from the transport
.

[Caldera02]

i think whats meant by special rules are: a squad next to a razorback with a bloodangel apothicary, would not recive the feel no pain benifit as the apoth is in the vehicle. or a banner in a transport would not function until it deployed from the transport
.

That makes sense since it's wargear.

[MasterSlowPoke]

i think whats meant by special rules are: a squad next to a razorback with a bloodangel apothicary, would not recive the feel no pain benifit as the apoth is in the vehicle. or a banner in a transport would not function until it deployed from the transport
.

Neither of these are true, as neither of those abilities depend on LOS being drawn out of the vehicle.

[s_harrington]

It affects things like Coteaz's "I've been expecting you"and Anrakyr's "Mind in the Machine" both of which requires a line of sight to activate and are not shooting attacks by themselves. (Even if they do lead to shooting attacks as a result of their effect)

And before anyone says Anray's transport is an open top, yeah I know. But page 70 doesn't give permission to use non shooting attack abilities that require line of sight, and the FAQ sets precendent you can't... thus....

voila... permissive ruleset.

[Turner]

Skip backwards to the "Psykers" part of the FAQ


Psykers
Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport
vehicle? (p50)
A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still
worked out from the vehicle’s fire points (this will
count as one model shooting through that fire point if
the power is used in the Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight and
has a range or an area of effect that is normally
measured from the model using it, these are measured
from the vehicle’s hull, as explained in the Embarking
section on page 66


Is it a Psychic power you are using? (that is not a psychic shooting attack)

[Angelofblades]

Well wait then, does this mean that IG psyker battle squads can or cannot use their ability in a chimera?

The rules seem to contadict themselves.

[SeattleDV8]

Not at all, you can use fire points for Shooting attacks and psychic powers, you may not use it for wargear and special rules.
Some examples Necron's: Nemesor Zahndrekh-Counter Tactics; Anrakyr the Traveller- Mind in the Machine
Tau: Aun'va- Supremely Inspiring Presence & Ultimate Price of Failure

[Nachodragon]

"Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle. Open-topped vehicles do not have specific access points..."

Specific is an important word, but more importantly, the word Instead. Open-topped vehicles do not have fire points. The word instead basically replaces the previous sentence.

This would also make more sense fluff-wise, someone standing on an open-topped vehicles will have a near 360 degree range of vision and would be much easier to see things on the battlefield, than a small fixed hole in the side of a tank. BUT, I don't want this to be a fluff discussion, but I know people are thinking it so I wanted to say it first. :p

[SeattleDV8]

The problem is if you treat an open topped vehicle as if it has no fire points then the rules for it are self contained.
That means you can fire and are allowed to measure and check LOS for shooting.
You have no permission to use psychic powers that need LOS while embarked because you can't measure or check LOS.
You still can't use wargear or special rules that need LOS again because there are no rules allowing you to do so.

[BuFFo]

The problem is if you treat an open topped vehicle as if it has no fire points then the rules for it are self contained.
That means you can fire and are allowed to measure and check LOS for shooting.
You have no permission to use psychic powers that need LOS while embarked because you can't measure or check LOS.
You still can't use wargear or special rules that need LOS again because there are no rules allowing you to do so.

I don't see how you can draw this conclusion at all.

Open Topped vehicles are not bound by the FAQ, have their own rules which specifically allow the use of "things" form inside the vehicle, and on top of that, do not have fire points anyway.

I don't see anywhere saying that open top vehicles disallow you form using wargear and other crap from inside it.

[SeattleDV8]

Show me in the rule where you are allowed to use them.
Permissive rule set, unless you have the rule to let you do it , you can't.
Open topped allows you to measure range and LOS for shooting attacks, thats all.
The FAQ does not come into it, except by drawing attention to this.
The only different is if 'open topped' is a Fire Point, then you may use psychic powers that need LOS.
If it is not a fire point then all you can do is shoot.

[Nachodragon]

The problem I have with this part of the FAQ is this is the first time (that i know of) where this comes into play. There is no section in the rule book for special rules or wargear specifically. I am pretty sure they meant the rule to apply to those vehicles with specific fire points as it is hard to look out a small window all the time. But open topped has a near 360 degree view (yes I said this before).

The other problem is they don't fully define all the vehicles and the nuances of them. Frankly, I still don't think they have fire-points and no one thought about open-topped vehicles when coming up with this FAQ. I believe they were thinking of the abusive cheap ICs that sit in rhinos and the like, completely safe and still messing with the game. i.e. Coteaz