Necron WBB Opinions

[ForsakenImp]

Hi there! I'm a mostly necron player, and have had many discussions with many players about We'll Be Back (Wbb) and Phase Out. I'm wondering if anyone has any good opinions about what should happen to them.

WBB is the roll necrons get to stand back up, unless it is negated by power weapons in cc, sweeping advance, weapons double their toughness, or not having a standing model of the same exact type within 6". Unless a res orb would allow them wbb even if power weaponed or strength double toughnessed, or a tomb spyder allows a wbb without a similar model within 6. You can see where it quickly becomes confusing and unintuitive. Phase out is supposed to be the draw back to getting WBB, so Necrons don't cost too much. If reduced to 25% or fewer necrons than they started with (Pariahs, C'tan, Scarab Swarms, Monoliths, and Tomb Spyders don't count as necrons) the necron player looses. He picks up and goes home, removing all models he has from the game.

The problem is, it's been more and more looking like every game is an Annihilation game vs necrons, as phasing them is easier now in 4th due to more brutal close combats and their reduced effectiveness vs vehicles.

So, do you think the current WBB/Phase Out situation is ok? Do have a better idea? Do you have suggestions for the readers?

Personally, I find WBB very limiting in army composition. I feel a res orb is a must, limiting my HQ choices, and I need a fairly solid base for wbb to prevent a couple lucky blasts from making me pick up and go home.
I feel the Phase Out rule should be per unit and on a die roll, to encourage big units and make the opponent play the mission, not just kill as many Necrons as possible, but am not sold on it being balanced. Also, necrons either need a way to not lose as easily in close combat, or to WBB from sweeping advances. My Opinions only.

[entendre_entendre]

i would actually like to see more necron armies, the problem is that they got hit with the nerfhammer in this ed.
Phase out is just plain unfair IMO.
well FNP would remove some of the confusion associated w/ WBB. you could try experimenting w/ FNP instead of WBB until the next 'dex comes out. supposedly that's what it's going to anyways, so you might be ahead of the curve. the res. orb would still have the same effect, but cost 25+ pts more. if your opponent agreed, you could remove the phase out rule, that might help things along.
overall the necron codex has very few options to begin w/ (by comparison to the more recent 'dexes), i want to see this 'dex with a plethora of mechanical monstrosities that are actually feasable to field.

[Prometheus]

I have played Necrons a few times in 5th edition and beaten them pretty handely ever time. With that said I think that GW should release a FAQ for them with and possibly drop Phase Out all together. The C"Tan despretly need Eternal Warrior also.

* What follows is my opinion, be warned...

When they get a new codex I think they should drop WBB and PO all together and instead give them the Relentless special rule and make most of thier weapons (if not all) Heavy weapons. It would kinda like the Tyranids having only Assualt weapons. It makes sense "fluff" wise, Necrons marching forward silently. It also makes sense becuase although they will be able to shoot and fire thier heavy weapons they will not be able to assault after.

I think thier stat line should stay about the same it is now, except make them have WS 3. I'm not sure weather I would keep them with a 3+ armour save and keep thier points similair to what they are now or give them only a 4+ armour save and drop thier points. I definetly do not want to see them have alot of upgrades or anything though for the squads. I also am tossing around the idea of giving all Necron models the We'll Be Back Rule but change it to a 5+ Feel No Pain Save. The ressurection orb would be able to chnage this into a 4+ Feel No Pain save, within its range.

I would also change Gauss to be a +1 on the Vehicle Damage chart. I also might remove it from the Warriors at that point. The Immortals would get a better toughness, the Pharah would become Necrons. The Wraiths would be armed with power weapons. Tomb Spyders would have more attacks and have a 2+ armour save. The Monolith would remain the same except that destorying a weapon would remove a whole sponson from the thing (it only has 4). I would also like to see another vehicle... maybe a walker.

The Necron Lords would come in 3 Tiers: Bronze, Silver and Gold, Platnium would be only for Apoc games. Bronze Lords would be similair to the Lords now but cost only like 80pts. Silver Lords would be 100pts and more army changing, perhaps making _____ units scoring or something. The Gold Lord would be able to take living metal skin and be a combat monster.

And as everyone already pretty much knows, no more C'Tan. My codex also would not have any Special Characters, it just does not make that much sense to me. Although I have written ideas up for a Necron Lord who is controled directly by the Deciever, maybe thiers an idea there.

[Cryl]

WBB is what makes necrons interesting to play. Changing it for FnP and T5 makes them plaguemarines, changing it for FnP at all makes them less than they are now so I'd keep it, at least the concept maybe the execution needs work but the principle is sound. Phase out is one of those rules that seems like a good idea until you have to play with it, nearly every game comes down to can I phase the crons out rather than can I complete the mission. It's broken and not needed, plague marines (there's that example again!) have T5 and FnP which is, very roughly, the same effect as WBB and they don't run away when they lose some of their friends!

I agree with Prometheus in that Wraiths desperately need power weapons or at the least rending and more attacks - although I'm reluctant to say rending as it seems to be a bit of a 'fix all' these days... oh look an underpowered unit, lets give it rending. Actually now that I think about it FnP seems to be going that way a little...
Pariahs should be necrons for sure, that's about the only way the grossly over inflated cost can come even close to being justified in the current edition.
Flayed ones need to be better also, where's my incentive to take what is basically an assault marine with no jump pack when they're just not very good in a marine list and they can move 12" there? Perhaps make them troops and tune them up a little, fleet and higher I or perhaps furious charge (although that might be too much) would be a good start imo.
Immortals are fine, maybe a little overpriced but they're a good unit.
Tomb spyders, again I agree with Prometheus on this, they need to be better, at least harder to kill, I'd like to see some sort of fantasy style regeneration mechanic applied by these guys - after all that's what they do in the background but I suspect adding codex specific rules has long gone and we're limited to combinations of the vanilla USRs
Levels of Lords and removal of the c'tan from the standard 40k game (make them 1500 point options in apocalypse maybe?) is just fine. Bronze Lords as Sgt. upgrade options would be nice, sure necrons are supposed to be all the same but they're basically programmed so why not have different combat programme options for the Lords that do different things for certain squads, furious charge for flayed ones if you have a CC programmed lord with the squad for example? Actually I'm now just typing as I'm thinking of these things which is a good way to post nonsense so I'll stop :)


There are plenty of problems that need resolution with this book and I'll freely admit I don't have sensible play tested solutions for them, I suspect one of the reasons that we're still waiting for this book is that GW don't have the solutions either, changing the list is easy, keeping it as something other than marines with FnP is harder, Phase out is rubbish and needs to go but WBB as a mechanic just needs tweaking not removing. In summary my concern for a new necron book is not that the changes come, they're inevitable and needed, but that the changes make the list even more soulless than it is now.

[TheKingElessar]

Hmmm. Knowing, as I do, some of the details regarding the Codex, I'm impressed. Some of the things posted above are spot on, some are close, and of course a few are miles out (no Walkers)...but good job overall. FYI, Prometheus, most of what you stated is in the draft copy I wrote myself 6 months ago, although I deviated a bit, and went further in some other areas.

[Tacoo]

what iv found is that necrons get alot better by changing 3 things

1st change, WBB at end of every phase, before figuring morale and LD checks

2nd change, increase WBB range to 12 inches

3rd change, +1 to chart, but flayers are heavy one and they have SnP

[mathhammer]

WBB is the roll necrons get to stand back up, unless it is negated by power weapons in cc, sweeping advance, weapons double their toughness, or not having a standing model of the same exact type within 6".

I think you will find in some circles "sweeping advance " aka "remove from play" you are still going to get your WBB roll if there is a model withing 6" of the unit.

The WBB is still powerful but you just need to plan overlapping control from res orbs and other squads. In short more planning to provide overlapping support. (As a tyranid I balance 12" circles all the time.)

[sketchesofpayne]

Playing Necrons in 5th edition the biggest drawback I've found is getting swept in close combat. To me the simplest solution to this is to make the Necron army Stubborn.

The reduced effectiveness of gauss is negligible, since if you destroy a tank's main gun you've usually neutralized it. Or if you immobilize a transport.

We'll Be Back is fine the way it is. To clarify how it works they ought to make a game state for when a model is sitting on its side awaiting a resolution (this would apply to models like Yarrick as well). WBB is actually better than feel no pain. For example, your 10-man warrior squad gets charged by khorne berserkers who inflict, oh let's say, 20 wounds on your unit. That's a potential 20 feel no pain rolls you would have to make, whereas if the squad dies that's only 10 WBB rolls.

I'm excited for new variations on Necron lords. Any chance for variety and customization would be welcome for the army.

I'd really like to see flayed ones improved. Perhaps take the ones that currently exist, remove their deep strike, and bill them as 'assault warriors' or some such. Then make the fast attack choice have more attacks and let them deep strike and assault like vanguard veterans. This would simulate them bursting out of the ground beneath the enemy's feet. Currently the biggest drawback to flayed ones is, sans transport, they get shot all to hell while trying to close with the enemy.

In the end, I play Necrons because I like the army, the models, the fluff. I didn't even know what their rules were when I bought them. Beware when the living metal skeletons burst out of the ground and tear you apart!

[ninja skills]

I agree with them being made stubbon, it just makes sense and fits with the fluff of only falling back in the direst of circumstances

wbb to fnp would streamline the game and wouldn't mind that

phase out HAS to go it was put in for balance but now unbalances things greatly

gauss well it needs something, -1 not -2 seems sensible but the way the codecies are going i wouldn't be surprised to see gauss=rending.

i'd like to see them expand on the interesting speed nature of the necrons, i like how they are individually slow but but have ways of redeploying the whole army. maybe being able to take deepstriking imobile portals or something (thats just a suggestion but it worked well in a couple of random apoc games we played)

[Lord Anubis]

Phase out was a holdover from the Necron's original appearance as a small, all-metal raider army that only had four options. The idea was that they were only just starting to wake in very small numbers, so they'd never waste material by leaving bodies behind.

The codex was the first fully viable Necron army, and it was when their story switched from "starting to wake up" to "awake." With that in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if the next Codex (due in 2073, by popular accounts) did away with phase out altogether under the logic that there are enough Necrons awake now that they no longer have to conserve resources.

And really that would take care of most people's gripes about them. I think so many people have gotten in a mindset about Necrons because of phase out (never take Monoliths, never take Pariahs, never take...) and when they offer suggestions on how to improve the army, these suggestions are based around the mindset, not the rules.

Take the suggestion up above for a deep striking portal. The Necrons have that already. It's called a Monolith. But Monoliths are sucky point-sinks no one should use because of phase out, so most people have blotted them from their minds. Just look at it for what it is and it's a damned scary unit. Meltaguns are almost useless against it, and they're the weapon of choice for most armies these days. Get rid of phase out and there will be tons of three Monolith armies within the week.

I agree WBB is fine as it is, and I hope they keep it. It's a colorful, army-specific rule, no different than chapter tactics or the Waaagh or issuing orders. But I do get an ugly sense it will get streamlined into FNP. :(

[TSINI]

i think with the way 5th is going - simplified and more standard rules

with the loss of 4th ed bionics rolls i can't see it even being similar to its current rules.

the necron we'll be back, will probably be more like the conscripts "send in the next wave" with squads wandering back onto the board whenever the player removes the squad. something like that. all though i don't knwo how they could improve it with the presence of res orbs and spyders

[Lord Anubis]

Well, figure the plus side of replacing WBB with FNP is it becomes an individual roll, not one that depends on other models nearby or on the board. And it would be easy enough to tweak the Orb so it works almost exactly the same way,allowing Necrons to ignore the affects of power weapons/ double toughness/ etc when making their FNP rolls.

Downside, as sketches of payne pointed out, is you'll make a lot more FNP rolls than WBB ones, so there's a better chance of losing units in the long run.

Plus you miss out on your opponent's anguished face when half the dead things he or she killed last turn get back up again. :)

[sangrail777]

My wife uses Necrons. To even things up we just throw out the phase out rule most of the time(2000 points or less games). We also count the Moniliths as having Reserection Orbs at no extra cost. Also due to the lack of versitile long range fire power we let the Moniliths Particle Whip reach out to 36" instead of 24" and the Moniliths Living Metal rule we expand to add that it can WBB also. For the WBB we don't worry about another type of model being within 6' either.

Want a hard fight against Necrons try these rules out! I'm not worried about eveniss either I figure each army is the way it is in it's own right. Win/Lose whatever, a good hard fought battle is just fun!
And no I don't add anything extra to my forces to compinsate for the additions for the Necrons.

[TheKingElessar]

Not Stubborn. That wouldn't make as much sense/they'd be okay in CC.

[ninja skills]

it wouldn't make them better in combat they just wouldn't run away very often, as per the fluff (and how they worked in 3rd/4th ed) they would just be more survivable, as they should be (they are meant to be the most resiliant army after all)

[TheKingElessar]

If they don't ever get Swept, and get to Tarpit for 5 turns, they're good in CC. You don't need to win combat to be quite good at it.

[Cryl]

At the points cost that's a hellish expensive tar pit that's probably better being pulled out by a portal and rapid firing into the unit that just assaulted them rather than sticking there. There's already scarabs that do the tarpit thing cheaper and probably better than stubborn warriors would

[TheKingElessar]

Absolutely. But, as I've already posted, Warriors are going up to T5 with FnP. IF they were also Stubborn Ld10, that'd be insane.

[sketchesofpayne]

Absolutely. But, as I've already posted, Warriors are going up to T5 with FnP. IF they were also Stubborn Ld10, that'd be insane.

You're making some assumptions there. I'm saying as warriors exist right now with the current codex they ought to be stubborn. As it stands right now my warriors get assaulted, they kill 3 warriors, make their armor saves and then I fail a leadership 7 roll and lose the unit to sweeping advance.

[ninja skills]

my point exactly, once you fail the leadership test after combat (that you'll still lose) thats it no getting away for the robots of doom with I2

i'd still use the monolith to get them out but at least they'd still be alive to allow that.

[Darxaan]

I've tossed around ideas for how to "fix" Necrons with a friend of mine. Kire, you know who you are.

Keeping on-topic with this thread, we our thoughts on WBB are this:
- Make it FNP. USR's make the game easier to play.
- Res orb negates all the circumstances that disallow FNP normally.
- Make the warriors T5 with a 4+ Sv. This along with some other statline changes keeps them from being pallet-swapped plague marines without making them seriously less hearty than they are now. What's important to note here is that plague marines are T 4(5) which means S8 will still instant-death them and this negates FNP while making warriors a native T5 means you need S10 to negate FNP and S10 is far less available than S8/S9 (though, granted, S10 generally comes in the form of pie-plates in which case you don't usually need very many of them, and granted that AP2/1 is plenty common at S8/9, but I digress.)
- Ld10 and stubborn. This is a no-brainer and really captures the "feel" of necrons, IMHO.

Now, in regards to phase-out:
I don't think it should be dropped completely because it is a wonderfully flavorful aspect of the army and helps to balance some of the more outrageously powerful aspects (*cough* monolith *cough*). However, as-is, the rule hurts us too much.
What would make it viable would be on a per-unit basis, as I have seen some people suggest. The way I would handle it would be this: any morale check a necron unit is forced to take, while they are stubborn, if they should fail it on their Ld10, then the unit phases out. This, while a harsh result when it does happen, would be reasonable in trade for some badass-ness while keeping the lowly warrior's point cost down (things like changing the gauss rule to rending, making warriors SNP/relentless, etc.).

Now, of course, this is just all my speculation/wishful thinking. But until we get a new codex, it's all I've got.
...well, that and a bunch of necrons on a shelf gathering dust.

[Lord Anubis]

Actually... I think we've all blanked on the easiest fix of all.

Keep phase out, just lower the percentage. Still fits fluff-wise, but also makes the army much more long-lasting.

If you phased out at 10% remaining instead of 25%, it makes non-Necron units much more viable in the game, but still causes problem if you lean on them too much.

Just a thought...

[Prometheus]

FYI, Prometheus, most of what you stated is in the draft copy I wrote myself 6 months ago, although I deviated a bit, and went further in some other areas.

What can I say great minds think alike.

(Had to say it.)

[Lerra]

I'd prefer to see Necron warriors with Fearless over Stubborn, and keep the points cost down. Make their base cost lower and give them interesting upgrade options. Perhaps a special HQ could give them stubborn.

It would also be interesting to see warriors with Counter-Attack. The Necron Warriors step forward, rapid fire their opponents, and dare them to charge. The mechanic could be interesting, especially if you give them an upgrade similar to photon grenades that deprives your opponent of the bonus attack from charging.

Considering the point cost and low maneuverability of warriors, they need to be better in assault, but you also don't want to see warriors played like space marines who push forward and then initiate assault.

In casual games, we often let the Necron player alter Phase Out so that, rather than automatically losing at 25%, he loses WBB on all units at 25%. It seems balanced enough, and certainly more fair than phasing an opponent out just before he tables you.

[sketchesofpayne]

Whoa, I just spaced out for a moment there thinking about the prospect of Necron warriors having defensive grenades.

...

It would be awesome, but there'd be no end to griping from my opponents. I guess plague marines have them already... I'll just say that's an upgrade I'd pay +3 points per model for!

[Darxaan]

I'd prefer to see Necron warriors with Fearless over Stubborn, and keep the points cost down. Make their base cost lower and give them interesting upgrade options. Perhaps a special HQ could give them stubborn.

It would also be interesting to see warriors with Counter-Attack. The Necron Warriors step forward, rapid fire their opponents, and dare them to charge. The mechanic could be interesting, especially if you give them an upgrade similar to photon grenades that deprives your opponent of the bonus attack from charging.

Considering the point cost and low maneuverability of warriors, they need to be better in assault, but you also don't want to see warriors played like space marines who push forward and then initiate assault.

In casual games, we often let the Necron player alter Phase Out so that, rather than automatically losing at 25%, he loses WBB on all units at 25%. It seems balanced enough, and certainly more fair than phasing an opponent out just before he tables you.

See, I don't think Fearless really fits necrons because they're machines and though they could be instructed to march forward with absolutely no concern for themselves, I think that in general, they'd still fall back when battlefield conditions dictate so.

Counter attack is an interesting suggestion that I hadn't heard before, but I'm on the fence about it. I definitely like the idea of defensive grenades, though, as someone else suggested. Making things like these upgrade options might not be a bad idea:

consider a new Warrior profile like this:
Ws2 Bs3 S3 T5 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv4+
(Bs3 is to compensate for changing gauss to rending which is a big buff against infantry and light vehicles)
Now, like this the lowly warrior would die pretty easy in close combat but with FNP, Stubborn, SNP and what amounts to a bolter with rending, he makes for a pretty scary unit. I would say that, given points deflation and codex creep, that a warrior like this would go at 16pts/model. Now for an extra 2 pts/model you can give them something that counts as defensive grenades and if (and only if) you take that option you can pay another 2-4 pts/model to give them counter attack (the effect the rule has on the game, I believe, has valid merits as a way of balancing things but it just doesn't "feel necron" to me so I'm not 100% behind this particular idea). Possibly an additional option would be another 1 or 2 pts/model to make the unit fearless--instructions to terminate John Conn- err... I mean all life at any cost. (I don't imagine fearless should cost too much since 1: deathwing terminators get fearless AND deathwing assault for only +1point/model over standard codex termies and 2: fearless can be as much a bane as a blessing (no mercy anyone?) particularly in a bad-at-assault unit )

I also had thoughts about changes to the gauss flayer profile to make it less like a bolter. Idea I'm currently entertaining:
S4 AP4 rapidfire 24" rending (granted, now it's rending kraken bolts, but at least those are more limited)
AP4 I believe is far more befitting a weapon that's described as shredding matter on the atomic level. and it's not like AP4 is a huge buff over AP5 since 4+ cover saves are everywhere now which means in 90% of cases, it won't even matter, but when it does matter, man will it ever.
The range I'm happy with. SNP means movement can count toward max range, so leaving it at 24" wouldn't be so bad since you still get 6-11" more range than you do compared to moving and firing rapidfire weapons without SNP. This means Warriors can effectively threaten a radius of 25-30" with Bs3 S4 AP4 rending.

Doing things like this leaves room for Immortals to be made into better versions of warriors (better, better versions than they are now)
My thoughts on an Immortal's stats being:
Ws2 Bs4 S4 T5 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv3+ FNP Stubborn Relentless
and gauss blasters:
S5 AP4 Heavy 2 30" rending
Giving immortals relentless and making their weapons heavy instead of assault is largely just a cosmetic change, but I don't really think the blaster is supposed to be an assault weapon--just look at the size of it and how the immortals hold it! The thing has to be as massive as an assault cannon. The old codex was written before there was a standard rule such as relentless (I think. I haven't been playing that long so I might be talking out my arse here. Please correct me if I am).
With Bs4 and S5 rending out to 30" these guys are a force to be reckoned with. I'd say 25-30pts/each and the same kinda options as warriors: defensive grenades, fearless, etc.

In specific regards to counter-attack:
in tandem with defensive grenades, this means almost nobody wants to be the first to assault a unit of necrons--you get no bonus attacks and instead, they do! However, all their attacks will be hitting on 4+ against most infantry and 5+ against characters and badass assault units (anyone with a Ws of 5 or higher). Add to this a S3 on basic warriors and most of these extra hits will need 4+/5+ to wound and they still lack power weapons AND let's not forget it's all on I2 so a bunch of these extra attacks will be reasonably likely killed before then.
At the very least, something like this could make warriors able to hold their ground the turn they're charged which could mean the difference between losing an objective or contesting it.
The description Lerra gives of what the counter-attack rule would be an abstract representation of, sounds like stand-and-shoot from WFB and that is definitely "necron" I will grant that.
My only real qualm is that very many people will hear necrons with counter-attack? and immediately shout "Cheese!" It takes consideration to realize that counter-attack is really only scary when you put it on a badass assault unit like anything space wolves. When you put it on warriors, it just makes them hard to kill which is really what they're all about.

Again, this is all just my speculation and wishful thinking. Maybe I'll make a project of drafting my own version of the codex off these ideas, but right now it's just fantasy, so don't nobody take anything I said here to mean this is how necrons WILL be, only how I personally, think they SHOULD be.

[DarkLink]

I've tossed around ideas for how to "fix" Necrons with a friend of mine. Kire, you know who you are.

Keeping on-topic with this thread, we our thoughts on WBB are this:
- Make it FNP. USR's make the game easier to play.
- Res orb negates all the circumstances that disallow FNP normally.
- Make the warriors T5 with a 4+ Sv. This along with some other statline changes keeps them from being pallet-swapped plague marines without making them seriously less hearty than they are now. What's important to note here is that plague marines are T 4(5) which means S8 will still instant-death them and this negates FNP while making warriors a native T5 means you need S10 to negate FNP and S10 is far less available than S8/S9 (though, granted, S10 generally comes in the form of pie-plates in which case you don't usually need very many of them, and granted that AP2/1 is plenty common at S8/9, but I digress.)
- Ld10 and stubborn. This is a no-brainer and really captures the "feel" of necrons, IMHO.

Now, in regards to phase-out:
I don't think it should be dropped completely because it is a wonderfully flavorful aspect of the army and helps to balance some of the more outrageously powerful aspects (*cough* monolith *cough*). However, as-is, the rule hurts us too much.
What would make it viable would be on a per-unit basis, as I have seen some people suggest. The way I would handle it would be this: any morale check a necron unit is forced to take, while they are stubborn, if they should fail it on their Ld10, then the unit phases out. This, while a harsh result when it does happen, would be reasonable in trade for some badass-ness while keeping the lowly warrior's point cost down (things like changing the gauss rule to rending, making warriors SNP/relentless, etc.).

Now, of course, this is just all my speculation/wishful thinking. But until we get a new codex, it's all I've got.
...well, that and a bunch of necrons on a shelf gathering dust.

I like your ideas. I personally think they should get FNP with Rending gauss (in principle, the rules are similar as is and easily justified by the fluff, plus the USR's are simpler and more balanced). I like the idea of T5 and 4+ saves, so long as they don't decide that means lords and immortals should be T6 standard (destroyer body for the lord like it currently is would be fine, though). Phase out should either be dropped from the rules and used as justification for why Necrons aren't fearless, or completely re-written. I like the idea of stubborn, too.

[Darxaan]

I wouldn't make Immortals and Lords T6, no... My idea that would make them stand out as more robust would be 3+ and 3+/4++ saves respectively, and better Ws/Bs to boot.