Base Size Question

[Grenadier]

Is there any concrete rule which requires models to be on specific bases?

A fellow player whom I've never actually battled decided to criticize and argue about my Black Templar character on a bike. The bike was on a heavy weapons team sized base. This was necessary because I made it into a chopper with extended forks so it'd not fit on a bike base. Also because I didn't have any such bases!

His view was this base made my model illegal and he would not allow it in a game if he played me. Basing his argument on the assault phase.

I pointed out to him that the size of the base really doesn't matter. In fact, the base's larger size would be a negative for me in assault. Since models have to be in base to base contact anyone assaulting my Templar would be able to put more models in contact with him than if it were on a normal bike base.

Anyway, to me this kind of nit picking nonsense irks me and so I want to know if there actually is a rule about base size.

[david5th]

All I can find is Pg 3 of the main rule book -

Bases

Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in th game.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive scenic bases. As mounting your models on different-sized bases might affect the way they interact with th rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this.

It does seem a hard and fast rule to me.

Personally I wouldn't mind that you put it on a larger base.

[Grenadier]

Thanks. So according to that there is a rule. But really it comes down to opponent's consent. And I hate nit picky opponents. A large base like I said would benefit an opponent more than me. If I ever play this guy and he refuses my biker I'll simply have to punish him by beating the snot out of his army.

[thecactusman17]

There are only 2 100% no-nos for bases:

1) They may not be smaller than the base provided with the model

2) Canis Wolfborn must use ONLY his supplied base size and may not increase or decrease its dimensions for any reason.

However, you SHOULD use the base most similar in size to the supplied base. For bikes, take a look and see what the over-sized Ork Warboss on a Bike from Forgeworld is supplied with, and see if that is acceptable to your opponent.

Only time I've ever complained about base size was when a tournament player showed up with his old Eldar jetbikes, and their 1-inch hex stand bases. Meant he had a huge advantage for range and assaults against my own new Eldar Jetbikes.

[SeattleDV8]

There are only 2 100% no-nos for bases:

1) They may not be smaller than the base provided with the model


That was a 4th ed. rule, it does not exist in the current rule set.

[Wolfshade]

As David5th pointed out there is only one official rule.
This issue comes up quite frequently especially people with slightly older minature collections, for instance the size difference between old and new terminator bases, the old hexagonal flying bases verse the new larger plastic ones.
None of my bikes are on bases but it they will be, eventually, and the attack bikes will be going on a heavy weapon sized base.

[Jwolf]

Base size is not much of an issue for Bikes, especially if the bases are round, as you are using. If you have one character on a slightly larger base and it makes sense for the size of the model, it is unlikely that any reasonable opponent would object.

Reading between the lines of your original post, either the guy you haven't played is unreasonable or you have made playing you unpleasant enough that he anticipates not having fin playing toy soldiers (even in a casual environment) with you. If he's just unreasonable, nothing you can do about it. If your play is very TFG, maybe you'll want to do something different so people want to play more games with you. I don't know what the case is, but any time I hear about minor semi-rules issues like this causing trouble with casual play, it raises a red flag for me that at least one party is probably not someone that would be a lot of fun to play with.

[SotonShades]

I'd like to add to JWolf's final point;

Just because other peopl ein your gaming group will play against you doesn't mean that the fault doesn't lie with you. In years gone by there were a couple of gamers who were less than fun to play against at my local store. Complete WAAC players, full on rules lawyering on everything (at least to minimise what you did, while conveiniently forgetting bits when it was their turn). Because of the number of people wanting to game and the number of tables, these guys usually got a game, but they were very much considered the boobyprize by most players. I left the store before they did, but I haven't seen them in a good few years and having returned now, the general atmosphere without them is significantly better and far more enjoyable.

[DarkLink]

At the last tournament I went to, I saw girl complain about "I hate when people model for advantage". The offending model? A fenrisian wolf on a small base. Fenrisian wolves don't even have models, and you can stick the conversions on whatever base you want legally. Nor is the difference between a small base and a cavalry base a significant one.

As for your case, though, larger bases in general are a disadvantage. You run a bigger risk while deepstriking, it's easier to get caught up on terrain or blocked by enemy models, and you can't fit as many dudes into close combat. Your opponent should be thanking you.

[Grenadier]

Let's just say I live in a place that the light of the Emperor does not shine upon. I've been into 40k for 15 years. But it took me years to convince a friend of mine to get into the game. Then he got his best friend into it. And another guy. The one I mentioned in this topic. And I only ever got to play against the first two a handful of times. Both have moved out of state so now there is no more gaming. There isn't a club here. Let alone a store that sells the models. I'd have to drive some 3 hours to such a place. Oh wait...I can't! My car is dead. So for me I make the best out of the least here. Which means mostly making models. That's how come my Templar biker wound up on a heavy weapons team base. Since I have ample time to make custom models and I don't have easy access to models, I tend to just make what I can with what I have. The bike came from an old one from when I first started playing. Extended its forks. And the only base I had it would fit was that one. I do wish I could play much more though! With guys who really know the rules and don't nit pick and quibble to death over it all.

When I first began playing there were three others before I got my friend into it. They were only around for a few months. And one of them was the biggest cheat I've ever seen! In one battle he plunked down a hunk of wood in the vague shape of a Landraider and said "this is a Landraider. Can I use it?" I allowed it. And he had "The Torsoless Rider of Sleepy Hollow" chaplain on a bike. A pair of legs on a bike. That's it. And in every turn that model had a different weapon. One turn I'm zapped by plasma. The next by a melta. Then whacked by a thunderhammer. Then fileted by a set of lightning claws! And I put up with this nonsense just to play. But I long to play some guys who play fair and right and are easy going when it comes to the game.

[SotonShades]

Have you heard of Vassal? The 40k module for it allows you to play online, with a little abstraction (as it can only deal with 2 dimentsions, so LOS can be a little tricky), with anyone around the world. It does lack the tactile element of the game, but if you are desperate for a proper game, it's at least something.

[Grenadier]

I've never heard of it all. To be honest these days for me my best way to experience 40k beyond making models is playing the PS3 game or Dawn of War.

[Hiflt4]

The best fix i have found for display bases is to make a bevel for a normal sized base on your display base so you can lift him out of the oversized base for when base size matters, that or have some kind of terrian or paint marker to the normal base size on the oversized base to allow correct measuring and assulting.

[Lord Fett]

if there is such hatred of you templar biker perhaps you could cut-down the side of the base to a more oval shape? other than that there isn't anything you can really do.
haters are gonna hate.

[wingedman1]

this is all great advice. I've heard that some tournies actually award victory points for full decorated bases. What do you think about that?

[Grenadier]

All I've ever done to my bases is put grass on them and color code the rims according to squads. Helps me to keep my units together.

[SotonShades]

Yeh, a few tournaments have some form of soft score for having a fully based army, similar to having a fully painted army. Some will doc you points for not having a fully based/painted army instead. Others just don't care, so check your tournament rules pack before to find out and/or consult yout TO if unsure.

That said, having a proper base really finishes a model, and of course an army, and really makes an unimaginable difference. When you think about it, the base is as much a part of the model as any other componant, so why not devote as much energy and love into painting/decorating it properly as you would the model's weapons or arms?

[Grenadier]

The only base I ever did more than the basics was for a heavy weapons missile launcher team. And for it I just made a kind of impromptu defensive position. I used leftover plates and hatches from various tanks to assemble a kind of semi-circular wall in front of the team. Knicking up the plates with my knife and painting them to look banged up and stuff. I then used some green stuff to make it look like they had piled up some earth around as well. The result was a very crude looking defensive position. But normally, by the the time I finish a squad, I just have no enthusiasm to do much to the base. The one and only thing I absolutely insist on doing is assigning a color to the squad and painting it on the rim. I'm tired of taking models off the table to put in the grave yard only to end up wasting time trying to remember who goes in what squad.

[Foxhound2delta]

I had to use the terminator bases for my metal vanguard vets because the supplied bases were just too small. The metal jump pack would cause them never stand up and they were always falling. So I put them on the bigger bases and never had an issue with it. Someone at the local store I played outside of Fort Knox tried to ***** about it until I quoted page 3 from the rule book. Yet when the Blood Angels came with their fancy plastic jump packs, I put them on my vets and then put them back on their original sized bases.

[bfmusashi]

I had to use the terminator bases for my metal vanguard vets because the supplied bases were just too small. The metal jump pack would cause them never stand up and they were always falling. So I put them on the bigger bases and never had an issue with it. Someone at the local store I played outside of Fort Knox tried to ***** about it until I quoted page 3 from the rule book. Yet when the Blood Angels came with their fancy plastic jump packs, I put them on my vets and then put them back on their original sized bases.
Did you try weighing the bases down with washers?

[Tepogue]

I have 60+ 2ediition metal Tyranid hormagants, I mounted them on WFB cav bases ( 25x50mm) and used them for years without complaints. The models are just so huge that they did not fit on the provided bases. I don't have a problem with poeple using bases that fit the model. IN general it's always a slightly bigger base, I don't think I've ever seen someone try and use a siginificantly smaller base. I am currently rebasing a Deathwing army on 1 1/2 inch washers. Simply becasue I really don't want to buy 50+ 40mm bases at nearly a $1.00 each. 40 mm comes out to 1.57 in. So my new bases will be 39 mm, I don't anticipate any problems with this small of a difference.

[XionXxen]

I think most people will accept a base if it is reasonable. I think at most tournaments the base accepted is the one that came with the model, or in cases like Terminators, old models can be mounted on new style bases.

The main complaint I see if with scenic bases that make models larger than they should be. In these cases the advantage often balances with the disadvantages and you can always base any LoS issues on the model as though it was on a standard base.

[Rapture]

In a game involving measurements, uniformity is key. I certainly don't want to be disadvantaged by my opponent's modelling but I don't want an advantage either. My opinion is that the standard bases should be used and non-existing kits should have their bases chosen by referencing similar kits.

That said, I find anything more than flock or sand to be excessive similar to the way some people model their figures with muzzle flashes.

[Grenadier]

I ran into this problem with a guy moving his Landraider too far per turn. If he meant to move it six inches he'd move it a little more. That's because if you measure from the front of the tank and move it exactly 6 inches it "looks" like it didn't really move six. But in reality it did. So, with that being said, my bike on its bigger base isn't going to cheat any inches when I move. So it should affect being shot at either in my opinion. It's disadvantageous to me to have it on the base. The larger size makes it harder to move in tight spaces. And in assault the larger base allows my enemy to put more models in base to base contact with it than a smaller one does.

Meh, some folks just quibble. My opponent absolutely has a hissy fit when I use my Master of Ordnance in my IG command squad. He does the same thing if my Marine commander uses orbital bombardment. Why? Because in his mind these attacks are illegal because there isn't a model on the table. He can't grasp that the model on the table is calling a shot down from space. But he nags and nags about how unfair it is. So I've come up with some very smartassed solutions to his complaint to use in the next game:

For my Master of Ordnance I built an additional model for him. A kind of high tech range finder using pieces from the command vehicle upgrade sprue and other stuff. That ought to settle his gripe.

And for my Space Marine commander: before the next game I intend to hang a tiny little space ship from the ceiling over the table. And just to rub it in more I'll spray paint a big space ship shadow on the table!

[dannyat2460]

And for my Space Marine commander: before the next game I intend to hang a tiny little space ship from the ceiling over the table. And just to rub it in more I'll spray paint a big space ship shadow on the table!

please please do and also provide pics of his face and of the table ext too lol

[Grenadier]

I believe I'll do just that! Smartass solutions to problems always result in fun times.

[gcsmith]

I believe I'll do just that! Smartass solutions to problems always result in fun times.

really good idea. Should get a cards for my tau army, saying welcome to the greater good sorry for beating you with a 4th edition army.

:) epic solutions to get over annoying people.

Or get a card saying sorry grey knights, afterall we aint daemons

[Grenadier]

I do enjoy the "mess with 'em" factor of 40k. Ways to annoy an opponent. Like, on my Black Templars chapter banner is a small Dark Angels insignia with a big red X striking it out. To remind my opponent of his many losses. That's for the Ophidium Gulf!

[gcsmith]

I would say grenadier, when u actually think about it larger bases do give advantages. While your movement is always the same regardless, the model base being bigger makes it easier to charge people say behind you.

Lets say I started on the 12" line with a 1" base and then move 6" forward, Im now 5" away from that line with the back of my base. With a 2" terminator base im now 4" away. These things are often insignificant, but in tournies can have an affect.

So I would say if the model comes with a base use it.
Although Overall I think some special models deserve a unique base.
Just don't go over board :)

[Grenadier]

True, it would mean charging is easier. Still, that slight advantage is offset for the simple fact the enemy will put a lot more models in base to base contact thus decreasing my commander's odds of survival.

One solution to the issue in game would simple be to measure movement from the bike's front tire. And for assault simply count the base as non-existent. After all, the bike's normal base is no bigger than the bike's own footprint right? So to treat the larger heavy weapons team base as non-existent means anyone assaulting me can hit me can step up on the base and contact the bike. It'd be the same as if it were on an original base. All measurements for assault or shooting will go against the bikes 4 sides. The base becomes part of the table.

**I just checked on of my bikers on the proper base. Both tires overhang the base by a bit and its width is equal to the bike itself. So that backs up my treating the base it is on as non-existent theory.

Besides, I only had one bike squad with original bases. All of my other bikes were scrap ones bartered to me without their original bases. So I had to work with what I had. In fact, some bikes actually just have two round bases: one on each wheel!

[gcsmith]

True, it would mean charging is easier. Still, that slight advantage is offset for the simple fact the enemy will put a lot more models in base to base contact thus decreasing my commander's odds of survival.

One solution to the issue in game would simple be to measure movement from the bike's front tire. And for assault simply count the base as non-existent. After all, the bike's normal base is no bigger than the bike's own footprint right? So to treat the larger heavy weapons team base as non-existent means anyone assaulting me can hit me can step up on the base and contact the bike. It'd be the same as if it were on an original base. All measurements for assault or shooting will go against the bikes 4 sides. The base becomes part of the table.

**I just checked on of my bikers on the proper base. Both tires overhang the base by a bit and its width is equal to the bike itself. So that backs up my treating the base it is on as non-existent theory.

Besides, I only had one bike squad with original bases. All of my other bikes were scrap ones bartered to me without their original bases. So I had to work with what I had. In fact, some bikes actually just have two round bases: one on each wheel!

To be honest bike bases are somthing ive dealt with myself, back when the bits could be ordered from mail order, I had a bike squad I got for my templars, all on dreadnaught bases, that was b4 bikes even came on bases.

[Grenadier]

I really miss being able to order specific bits like that! Part of the fun was simply just scouring all the models, even those outside of 40k for cool bits you could use. Now my bits box just ends up being comprised of unused parts. Not being able to order specific bits seriously hinders things I think.

And while at it here's a gripe I have: My bits box is full of extra torso parts. Tons of them. We get these aplenty. But you never get any unused legs. It'd be nice if they put more legs on the sprues.

[gcsmith]

Meh I like excess torso's im glad that my templars get some custom bits, even if they are subpar to wolves and BA, I want my tau to also have customisation

[Grenadier]

I suppose I shouldn't complain. If kits came with spare legs GW would just jack up the prices. I would like to see other spare stuff though. I don't have enough Templar shoulder pads. Am trying to figure out how to make their cross out of green stuff and apply it to smooth pads. And forget about the decals..they always crumple up near the top.

[ArchonPhelps]

For the decals just do what I do and use duct tape

[Grenadier]

No! I abhor tape in all its forms. For it has adhesive on it! And I'm a bit of a germophobic OCD type. In my mind the sticky side of all tape harbors all manner of horrors embedded in the adhesive.