PDA

View Full Version : Rules Problems



Joey Boor
07-31-2009, 02:50 PM
Basically this thread is all about discussing the various problems that we have with the current ruleset.

My problem is that the other night I was playing Planetstrike with my usual group when the Tyranid player that was assaulting me got the idea that her gaunts with the without number rule could deepstrike even when her codex specifically states that they walk on from her table edge. So the question is, who should be right? Me for following the letter of the rules or her for following the theme of the expansion.

Lord Inquisitor
07-31-2009, 03:29 PM
The expansion does trump the regular rules for 40k. But then comes the question of whether it trumps the codexes. In my opinion I would say that they have to come in from the boards edge. Because planetstrike is an expansion of the 40k rulebook, not any codex. So Just like a codex can trump the rulebook I would say the codex would trump the expansion.

warpcrafter
07-31-2009, 04:04 PM
A problem came up on another forum and they were unable to solve it because a couple of members insisted on being children about the whole thing, so I'll pose the question here and hope for the best. It says in the rules for the Ork battlewagon's Deff rolla that it gets D6 S10 hits against any unit that it tank shocks. Now it doesn't specifically say anything about this being against infantry/cavalry only, but it seems to me that when ramming a vehicle, it would only get a single ramming attack at the standard strength, because otherwise it would be an absolute vehicle destroyer. Am I wrong or just overly charitable to my enemies?

Rapture
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
A problem came up on another forum and they were unable to solve it because a couple of members insisted on being children about the whole thing, so I'll pose the question here and hope for the best. It says in the rules for the Ork battlewagon's Deff rolla that it gets D6 S10 hits against any unit that it tank shocks. Now it doesn't specifically say anything about this being against infantry/cavalry only, but it seems to me that when ramming a vehicle, it would only get a single ramming attack at the standard strength, because otherwise it would be an absolute vehicle destroyer. Am I wrong or just overly charitable to my enemies?

Anyone who argues that a metal cylinder on the front of a car would for some reason cause multiple collisions when it crashed into another car is obviously digging for an advantage and should be avoided.

Lord Inquisitor
07-31-2009, 04:42 PM
A vehicle isn't a unit. It is a model or vehicle. So it would use the ramming rules. But if it where true, a real life example would be that car with the cylinder hits the side of a car once, one hit, rolls up a little, two hits, rolls up some more, three hits, and does this until it potentionally goes all the way across the car. Its a thought.
I also have a question. With the order First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, does this order work on Hot-Shot Lasguns. When someone said it to me I was outright no, but I mean it says lasguns in the order and they are lasguns, albeit hot-shot ones. So far I've not tried for the sake of I try not to be a jerk. But I'm all for using the rules to their greatest potential.

N-Bomb
07-31-2009, 09:08 PM
For the tankshock with deathroller, I would say yes for 3 reasons. First and foremost the explaination given by Lord Inquisitor. Secondly, it is a unit (albiet a unit of one). Finally, Ramming is a form of tank shock (it specifically says in the rulebook that ramming is a form of tank shock).
As for the hot-shot lasguns I was asking the people at the place I game at and I've gotten a mixture of opinions, I guess until an FAQ comes out you kind of have to house rule it, it is a lasgun, but not a 'lasgun' lasgun.

bob
08-01-2009, 06:23 AM
About first rank fire second rank fire ,in the order description it says " if the unit did not move in its movement phase they fire two shots with their lasguns at an enemy up to 24" away, instead of just one"
Unless you think it adds 6" to the range of hotshot lasguns then the answer is a definite no.

The deff rolla's a hard one to make a call on with out the book in front of me , but common sense says one

N-Bomb
08-01-2009, 06:43 AM
I forgot all about the mention of range in the definition of FRFSRF, so I'll side with bob on that one.

This may seem odd (and possibly in the rulebook, I don't have mine on me right now), but when people disembark from a valkarie or vendetta, if they aren't using the deepstrike style dissembark (say the vehicle was stationary) and you have it on a fly base, do you still measure from the access points, thus making it impossible, or do you simply measure from the base?

Lord of Deeds
08-01-2009, 07:09 AM
Lasguns and Hot Shot lasguns are two different weapons, they are listed separately. So to me RAW is pretty clear and the first recond, second rank fire special rule only applies to lasguns. If it applied to both it would say hot shot lasguns and lasguns.


As for the Deff-rolla I think RAW and RAI both make the overwhelming case that you only get the D6 S10 attacks when you tank shock and not ram. Why else have a reinforced ram in the list? The Deff-rolla to me is definitely meant for killing infantry and the reinforced ram for vehicles.

Oh and for what it's worth I play Orks.

bob
08-01-2009, 08:14 AM
As for the Deff-rolla I think RAW and RAI both make the overwhelming case that you only get the D6 S10 attacks when you tank shock and not ram. Why else have a reinforced ram in the list? The Deff-rolla to me is definitely meant for killing infantry and the reinforced ram for vehicles.
.

Unfortunately ramming is a type of tank shock , thats why the discussion exists

Vagrant
08-01-2009, 08:31 AM
this is all about vulkan. first off (this seems redundant), does vulkan twin link his own gaunlet? ive heard it go both ways. as for the reasons, thats just one of those fun ones.

if you take vulkan in an apoc game along side sisters, would they benifit from his twin linkings. would sisters benefit in a normal game if allied?

Dingareth
08-01-2009, 08:44 AM
Yes Vulkan Twin Links himself, and unfortunately the Sisters as well. Personally, I don't think it should happen, but there no stipulation like Khan to need to have Combat Tactics in order to use it.

Also, there is an entire sub forum dedicated to rules questions, making this thread a bit redundant.

BuFFo
08-01-2009, 09:23 AM
A vehicle isn't a unit. It is a model or vehicle.

I don't know where you are getting this from.

A vehicle most certainly IS a unit. Everything in the game that has its own movement is its own unit.

Page 5 under unit types to be specific.

Rapture
08-01-2009, 04:04 PM
Unfortunately ramming is a type of tank shock , thats why the discussion exists

That is like saying that a scout biker sergeant can take an astartes grenade launcher because scout bikers can take them, when in fact they are different (just like ramming and tank shocking). A scout bike sergeant and a scout biker are different. Ramming and tank shocking are different.


A vehicle isn't a unit. It is a model or vehicle. So it would use the ramming rules. But if it where true, a real life example would be that car with the cylinder hits the side of a car once, one hit, rolls up a little, two hits, rolls up some more, three hits, and does this until it potentionally goes all the way across the car. Its a thought.

Interesting idea but the kinetic energy would be lost in the initial collision. If the vehicles was strong enough to roll over another (sort of like a monster truck or even treads pulling it) then it would always be able to do that whether there was something extra tacked to the front or not.

StrikerFox
08-03-2009, 05:22 AM
@rapture
pg 69 MRB "ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."
deffrolla rules:
"any tank shock made by a battle wagon with a deff rolla causes d6 s10 hits on the victim unit."

it goes on to say about death or glory, but vehicles cant opt to do that in the first place, so no 2d6 s10 hits.

@warpcrafter
you are being verry generous.. as i use one, and it DOES krump other vehicles! of course i always resolve the "ramming" rules first, before i say, and now the deffrolla hits.

hot shot lasguns, are pretty much ruled as not being your run of the mill "lasguns".. i think somone did a ruling on it.. not sure..

about the nid thing, as i commented before, in planetstrike, things are different, and they are gonna get bloody.. but just play to have fun. the choice is really up to the attacker, and i would say they get without number aswell.. just for pure ****s and giggles.. imagine them coming in on giant boogers from the sky.. i mean.. its just how i see it..

and yes, vulkan can be nasty, allowing the sisters to twin link every single damn thing and make everyone cry..

@ n-bomb
about the valkrie transport thing, we rule 2 inches from the base around it.. just think they using drop ropes like from a helicopter.. otherwise they really couldnt get out from the transport being THAT high up.. XD

Warbosssezhi
08-03-2009, 10:54 AM
A problem came up on another forum and they were unable to solve it because a couple of members insisted on being children about the whole thing, so I'll pose the question here and hope for the best. It says in the rules for the Ork battlewagon's Deff rolla that it gets D6 S10 hits against any unit that it tank shocks. Now it doesn't specifically say anything about this being against infantry/cavalry only, but it seems to me that when ramming a vehicle, it would only get a single ramming attack at the standard strength, because otherwise it would be an absolute vehicle destroyer. Am I wrong or just overly charitable to my enemies?

I have asked around myself about this and the answer I get from EVERY GW store is the following:

The deffrolla Will work against vehicles as it is used instead of ramming (ie: you lose the ability to ram when you equip it), however you will not get the 2nd d6 as vehicles cannot death or glory(walkers can though).

Now I know the arguement will ensue about GW store employees not really knowing ll of the rules and such but they are the tournament organizers and judges for their store. Besides if each store I call says the same thing..... maybe they do know something.

Majorcrash
08-03-2009, 03:01 PM
A vehicle isn't a unit. It is a model or vehicle. So it would use the ramming rules. But if it where true, a real life example would be that car with the cylinder hits the side of a car once, one hit, rolls up a little, two hits, rolls up some more, three hits, and does this until it potentionally goes all the way across the car. Its a thought.
I also have a question. With the order First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, does this order work on Hot-Shot Lasguns. When someone said it to me I was outright no, but I mean it says lasguns in the order and they are lasguns, albeit hot-shot ones. So far I've not tried for the sake of I try not to be a jerk. But I'm all for using the rules to their greatest potential.

Talking to the group I play with, and I'm the IG player. The answer was no as it spells out examples of other weapons that it doesnt work with. Myself I can go either way.

AdamHarry
08-03-2009, 05:10 PM
This comes from the BoLSCon FAQ packet. If you're planning on attending, you may want to read up on this...



ORKS

Q: Can I use Deff Rolla on vehicles?
A: No, ramming is a separate subtype of tank shock.

Q: Can Ork Trukks ram other vehicles?
A: No.


Just FYI, This is going to be the ruling at BoLS con, right or wrong. So however you play it at home this is how it's gonna work at BoLSCon.

Diagnosis Ninja
08-03-2009, 05:46 PM
Why exactly can't Trukks ram other vehicles? I can see no problems with it :S

RealGenius
08-03-2009, 07:04 PM
Why exactly can't Trukks ram other vehicles? I can see no problems with it :S
Ramming is a tank shock, only tanks can tank shock. The Ork Trukk is not a tank.

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2009, 08:05 PM
Are you sure. Because I don't know about that one. Is a Battlewagon a tank?

Madjob
08-03-2009, 08:10 PM
Ramming is a tank shock, only tanks can tank shock. The Ork Trukk is not a tank.

Except that a Trukk with the Reinforced Ram upgrade may make tank shocks, that's what it does. If you agree that a ram is a sort of tank shock, then a Trukk with a Reinforced Ram should be able to ram.


Interesting idea but the kinetic energy would be lost in the initial collision. If the vehicles was strong enough to roll over another (sort of like a monster truck or even treads pulling it) then it would always be able to do that whether there was something extra tacked to the front or not.

I think that whole line of argument was besides the point, looking at the general depiction of a Deff Rolla as well as the official one provided by the accessory sprue, it brings to mind something you'd find on an excavation machine, for breaking through heavy rock and soil. You're going to tell me that spinning one of those into the armor of a tank, not to mention lighter vehicles, isn't going to do anything?

Regardless I always make sure with a new opponent what their thoughts on either of these matters is before we start. If they find it too iffy to swallow I tend not to press the matter and play as though they can't do either - not much of a problem in one case as I don't equip my trukks with rams.

Nabterayl
08-05-2009, 11:03 AM
Deffrollas certainly affect vehicles. The analysis goes like this:

Page 55 of the ork codex states, "Any Tank Shock made by a Battlewagon with a Deff Rolla causes D6 Strength 10 hits on the victim unit."

Page 5 of the rulebook states that a "unit" may consist of vehicles, as BuFFo has pointed out.

Page 69 of the rulebook states that ramming is a type of tank shock, as StrikerFox has pointed out.

So the question boils down to this: can a battlewagon tank shock a vehicle? In order for the answer to be yes, two things must be true.

First, the vehicle in question must be a unit, or part of a unit. Page 5 of the rulebook states that this is the case.

Second, the unit in question must be the sort of unit that can be tank shocked. It seems like this is where the debate most often centers.

The "no deffrolling vehicles" position requires its proponents to argue that vehicles cannot be tank shocked, despite or because of the fact that they can be rammed. Page 69 presents the obstacle that "ramming is a special type of tank shock."

In other words, the "no deffrolling vehicles" position collapses to arguing that vehicles cannot be tank shocked because ramming is a special type of tank shock.

This position seems obviously spurious to me. It's like arguing that a krak missile is not a missile because it's a special type of missile, or a boa constrictor is not a snake because it is a special type of snake. If B is a "special type of" A, then the set of A includes all of B. "Special type of" simply does not mean "not the same thing as but very similar to."

From a rules perspective, killing vehicles is about all a deffrolla is good for (consider that a deffrolla expects to kill only 1.9 Imperial Guardsmen on average over time, and only 0.9 MEQs - heck, it only kills an average of 2.9 gretchin per attack). From a fluff perspective, it's a fair question as to why a big spiked roller potentially allows a battlewagon to roll straight through a monolith. But on the other hand, the deffrolla doesn't behave logically with regard to infantry either. I can think of no reason why a tank shocked infantry unit suffers d6 auto-hits even if they pass their Morale test (and thus get out of the way of the tank shocking vehicle), or why an infantry unit that successfully Death or Glories a battlewagon suffers 2d6 auto-hits, but both of those cases are true. Compared to those, grinding through an enemy vehicle seems comparatively plausible to me.

blueshift
08-05-2009, 11:43 AM
in the last game i played, i would've had the chance to ram my deffrolla-armed battlewagon into a land raider... but my opponents called the game early. there were also 70 of my orks between the epic clash peppered with CC (that was the catalyst for the early game calling).

nabterayl: i totally agree with you on all counts. rolling over high point cost models would almost certainly be worth it... and of course vehicles.

Nabterayl
08-05-2009, 12:00 PM
Except that a Trukk with the Reinforced Ram upgrade may make tank shocks, that's what it does. If you agree that a ram is a sort of tank shock, then a Trukk with a Reinforced Ram should be able to ram.

I agree. Weirdly, a ramming trukk with a Reinforced Ram still rams at AV10, as a vehicle with a Reinforced Ram "treats its front armour as two higher than normal when resolving Death or Glory attacks (to a maximum of 14)."

This being the case, and thus the very maximum Strength hit a ramming trukk can inflict being S6, I find that trukks don't tend to ram very much anyway.

EDIT: I actually find the most important part of the Reinforced Ram to be that it allows trukks to re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. Driving straight through Difficult Terrain as opposed to driving around it can be the difference between success or failure for a trukk-borne unit, and for 5 points I'll absolutely improve my odds of being able to do that from 83% to 97%.