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sicarius2424
09-18-2009, 09:09 PM
am i the only one to have realised that all the traitor primarches have been treated poorly by the emporer when they were found and all the loyalists were treated nicely and praised and if you dont believe me check out the primarches at www.lexicanium.com



what are your thoughts???? and then what if the traitors were jumbled up with the loyalists like having death guard ironwarriors raven guard blood angels alpha legion space wolves thousand sons night lords salamanders and the rest traitor please tell me your thoughts

Abominable Plague Marine
09-18-2009, 09:25 PM
Well as the story goes, elements of each Legion either remaind loyal or turned traitor, generally if you were caught on the "wrong" side, you were disposed of.

As for the Primarchs, I dont think the were all treated badly, just the Emperor was busy and left them under Horus's wing.

sicarius2424
09-18-2009, 09:32 PM
no but have you really read what the emporer did with the primarches look at mortarion fulgrim was pressuered to do evry thing perfect by the emporer calling the the emporers children and so on alphisarius doesnt count

Abominable Plague Marine
09-18-2009, 10:32 PM
Ive read them all many times and no where does it say the Emperor made any of the legions do anything!

Typhus damned Mortarion and the Death Guard, and Fulgrim and his legion became vein after the fact and sought perfection in all its from driving themselves mad in the process.

Fact is, all the Primarchs fought with each other (in their own little ways) for the Emperors approval, some went to extremes!

wittdooley
09-18-2009, 10:58 PM
Yeah, they make it pretty clear in the Horus Heresy books that the majority of the traitor legions became traitors because they believed the Emperor was no longer the leader of the Great Crusade and that Horus was the rightful leader.

The only traitor legion that I can even think of that turned as a direct result of the Emperor is Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Magnus wanted to use his warp abilities to help cull the traitors until the Emperor damned his use of the warp and sent Russ and the wolves to purge Prospero.

I think maybe you should just read the books and a lot of this stuff would be pretty clear to you, as well.

sicarius2424
09-19-2009, 07:30 AM
ah but i have read all the horus heresy books out and ive looked over alot of stuf on lexicanium

ork mage
09-19-2009, 07:44 AM
Just like to point out that if you've read all of the stuff you'd know that Russ and the Emperor fought each other, also that the Emperor knocked Russ out and they didn't speak to each other for a long time (Space Wolf Novels), Yet the Wolves are one of the most Loyal Chapters (To the Emperor, not the Beaurocrats)

Abominable Plague Marine
09-19-2009, 07:54 AM
ah but i have read all the horus heresy books out and ive looked over alot of stuf on lexicanium

So give us some specifics rather than making broad statements? What has you troubled over this?

Lord Inquisitor
09-19-2009, 07:54 PM
The Emperor treated Angron well, if you've read Tales of Heresy. Angron was beating up on the Custodes while the Emperor was politely asking him to stop the violence. The legions who turned against the Emperor where the ones who began to believe that regular people should just serve them. They got selfish and saw the Space Marines as humanity and didn't see that they were serving humanity they were apart of. There pride caused them to lose sight of why they began the Crusade, to reunite humanity and send it into a Golden Age. Not enslave humanity to their will. They viewed the Emperor as weak because the Emperor served humanity and was selfless.

ThePov
09-19-2009, 08:13 PM
The Emperor treated Angron well, if you've read Tales of Heresy. Angron was beating up on the Custodes while the Emperor was politely asking him to stop the violence. The legions who turned against the Emperor where the ones who began to believe that regular people should just serve them. They got selfish and saw the Space Marines as humanity and didn't see that they were serving humanity they were apart of. There pride caused them to lose sight of why they began the Crusade, to reunite humanity and send it into a Golden Age. Not enslave humanity to their will. They viewed the Emperor as weak because the Emperor served humanity and was selfless.
Ummmmm... The Big E screwed Angron over more than anyone else. When the Emperor found him, he was facing a glorious, suicidal last stand with his loyal men against those who had oppressed him all his life, and the Emperor :Saved" him against his will, so all Angron could do was watch his men die. Maybe the Emperor tried to compensate for this later, but you can NOT say that the Emperor treated Angron well.

sicarius2424
09-19-2009, 09:08 PM
yeah you both have a point but if you look when he found mortarion he was in the process of building better armour to kill his "father" but then the emporer came and bullied him into fighting his "father right then and there but mortarion never made it he passed out and the last sight he saw was the emporer coming in and killing the man that he was challenged to kill with one sweep of his sword here ill pull up the passage



Only the top of the mountains denied him access. After hundreds of battles and wars, there was just one inaccessible mansion, one which Mortarion knew well, the one where his adoptive father resided. Mortarion returned to his village, confident in the knowledge that he would return for his final battle. When he returned, there was word of an amazing visitor who brought promises of salvation. The mood of the primarch darkened. His final battle had been building for years and he was not happy that someone else would share his glory.

People say that Mortarion flattened the wooden door to the banquet room and he found the elders and a stranger who was their opposite in every way. Where they were gaunt and pale skinned, the stranger had bronzed flesh and a perfect physique. The connection between father and son immediately formed and was plain to see, although Mortarion knew nothing of the link. The stranger challenged the young primarch to capture the last mansion alone, but if he failed he would join the stranger in total obedience. Mortarion turned away and began the ascent to the final mansion, that of the man he had called father, alone. He marched to the top with the anger given by years of building hatred for the final warlord. He climbed higher than he had ever gone before, ignoring the increasing toxins.

When the confrontation came, it was mercifully short. Even the hoses of his suit began to corrode and rot down and Mortarion was gasping for breath. The last thing he saw was the overlord walking towards him to fulfill the promise he had made years before. Then, the stranger stepped between them and, defying the fog, killed the warlord with one mighty sweep of his sword.

and i know there are some excetions in the loyalists but there are always exceptions

sicarius2424
09-19-2009, 09:31 PM
fulgrim became too upsesed with the notion that he had to live with the notion of doing every thing perfectly (i bet the guys couldnt even take a crap without them trying to make it perfect)

pertuabo didnt like the defences on terra because they were so perfect and he hated dorn (dont know why probably because they were basically the same type of army) and nonr of the primarches really liked him

cruze didnt choose his legion did (criminals) hes off the hook

magnus was attacked for trying to keep horus from making a bad decision (the emporer can be a jerk some times)

horus turned because he was tricked and because noone liked that the emporer left the great crusade expesially him and being warmaster didnt sit well with him

logar worshiped the emporer as a god and that didnt sit well with him and when he was found they basically reorganised the belief sructure to worship the emporer and partied for months

Alpharius Omegon well i wont spoil the fun for people that havent read the horus heresy books

RogueGarou
09-19-2009, 09:54 PM
Well, there are instances of handling the kids (the Primarchs) with heavy or soft hands. It depends on the context and point of view. Should the Emperor have used kid gloves on the lil tykes? They were designed and created to be the ultimate killing machines and capable of incredible feats of logic and cunning. If you are playing with a Tyrannosaurus Rex, it is going to nip you and it is not going to respond as well to warm, loving, nurturing pats on the head. It wants to play fetch and roll around and rough house.

Several of the Primarchs recognized the Emperor upon sighting him. Many did not but saw some hint of his power. Not all of the ones who immediately declared fealty to the Emperor remained loyal. Not all who were antagonistic toward him fell from grace. Russ was stubborn, prideful, and rough hewn by nature. Guilliman and Dorn are very much more ordered. Horus had it all. He was intelligent, charming, brutal, efficient, wild, and structured. He was like a chameleon and could be whatever was needed when it was needed. He also realized that he was fallible and brought together the Mournival to counsel him. Many of the Primarchs wished to be named Warmaster and to act in the Emperor's stead. Of the 18 Primarchs at the time, Horus was the only one that all of the others would bow to and they all knew it. Jonson and Russ would have been unwilling to submit to the others will. Dorn and Perturabo are the same. Several of the Primarchs would not have followed the pretty boys Fulgrim and Sanguinius while Alpharius/Omegon and Corvax could not have led due to the secrecy of their nature.

I think the big difference in why some fell and others did not boils down to the same thing it boils down to in any child. We all know kids who take things personally and can not get over any kind of criticism or chastisement. Or the kid who totally ignores any correction. Lorgar was raised surrounded by religion and along comes the Emperor who is obviously god-like. Sure, Lorgar is Hercules but the big E is Zeus. Lorgar KNOWS in his bones that you MUST venerate a god. He MUST venerate the Emperor as a god. The Emperor wants mankind to leave religion and superstition behind. He smacks Lorgar on the hand and says, "Son, don't do that, it's wrong." He didn't say, "Son, I don't agree with that and try to understand my point of view and I will try to understand yours." He surely thought that his boys could handle that kind of thing and be grown-ups, get over it and move along with conquering the galaxy. He was the Emperor not the Arbitrator. By definition it kind of means that what he says, goes.

Unfortunately, some of his kids weren't ready for the grown-ups table and look what happened. Lorgar decided that since Daddy didn't agree with him, then he wasn't his dad anymore. Angron had his pops interfere with what he was doing in his best interest and he was bitter about it. Could Angron have won? Could the Emperor have deployed the World Eaters at Angron's disposal and won the day? We'll never know and maybe that always stuck somewhere in Angron's mind. A little kernel of doubt and anger that he could never get over. Magnus was doing something that the Emperor knew about and knew was bad for him, knew it was possibly going to undermine the Emperor's goal of conquering the Warp. Magnus craved it too much to stop, though. Jonson followed in his father's footsteps and basically made the same mistakes as the Emperor. The Dark Angels fracture is kind of a parallel to the larger civil war of the Horus Heresy.

I think Horus and Perturabo may be the most sad of the Primarchs stories. Horus could not believe in himself and his father enough to weather the lies presented to him from the Warp. Perturabo was very good at one thing, possibly the best at it. Ever. But it wasn't glorious. It wasn't enjoyable. It became an unending grind of monotony and pain. Horus played on this and made sure the Iron Warriors were ground down more and more until he could easily sway them to his cause. He broke them, right in front of everyone and no one knew it had happened until they lashed out at the universe. Anyway, if you read all the way down to here, thanks. It is just my view of things. The Primarchs were treated as they were treated. It was not malicious. It was just how fathers and sons have always gotten along. Some kids grow up and get on with life, some do not. The magnitude of power between a baker's son and the Emperor's son is what makes the difference. Just my thoughts.