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Vince
09-20-2009, 03:01 AM
When a model assaults a vehicle can it assault if it can only reach the barrel of a gun for example on a vindicator? Also if a assaulting model is not able to reach it's base to a part of a vehicle but can touch its arm to a vehicle does that assault happen?

Aldramelech
09-20-2009, 04:00 AM
I would say it has to be in base contact with the hull.

Hairy Piggy
09-20-2009, 08:26 AM
I would say it has to be in base contact with the hull.

I would second that.

emhubbard
09-20-2009, 09:22 AM
I'm pretty sure that the BrB states that everything happens from "the hull" of the vehicle. Except for measuring range, thatís done from the weapon its self. So assault that reaches the dozer blade fails, assault that reaches the front hull succeeds.

Also lets say that you have rotated the battle cannon of your Leman Russ 90 degrees to the side, and a las cannon shot is just barely in range to touch the outstretched barrel. That shot FAILS as it does not touch the HULL.

At least thatís how everyone I know interprets the "Hull" rule.

BDub
09-20-2009, 03:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that the BrB states that everything happens from "the hull" of the vehicle. Except for measuring range, thatís done from the weapon its self. So assault that reaches the dozer blade fails, assault that reaches the front hull succeeds.

Also lets say that you have rotated the battle cannon of your Leman Russ 90 degrees to the side, and a las cannon shot is just barely in range to touch the outstretched barrel. That shot FAILS as it does not touch the HULL.

At least thatís how everyone I know interprets the "Hull" rule.

Agreed, but for the sake of simplicity and hair preservation, I would count the dozer blade as part of the hull. It will make everyone's life easier.

DarkLink
09-20-2009, 04:22 PM
I agree about counting Dozer Blades and similar, but gun barrels definately don't count.

mountaincycle661
09-20-2009, 08:53 PM
What about defilers and soul grinders? What counts as the "hull"? Ive gotten into MANY situations where people are confused about being able to hit my defiler. Do the legs count? What if a lascannon reaches its very extreme range landing right on the claw?! Do you have to be able to hit the actual "body/sarcophagus" in order to use that lascannon? what about assaults? Can you stretch out those arms extra long and assault with them?!

These are all issues ive had with the "hull" of this model.

any clarifications?

DarkLink
09-21-2009, 11:11 AM
There's a big argument about what exactly does a "hull" mean in one of the other threads about Valkries. Some people argue that because the wings are not a "hull", you can't target the wings on a Valkrie.

The problem is that the term "hull" is never defined. And it wouldn't be a problem, except for Defilers, Drop Pods and Valkries. How do you treat the legs and arms on a Defiler, the doors of a Drop Pod or the wings on a Valkrie.

Since no definition is given for the term "hull", but the only other part of the vehicle really covered in the rules are weapons (LOS is drawn from weapons, everything else from the hull), I say that the hull is everything except the weapons and similar little bits that stick out. We can't really use the normal definition for a "hull" (planes don't have hulls, they have a fuselage), so we just have to guess as to what it means. So if you can see the wings of a valkrie, go ahead and shoot. If your opponent has a problem with that, I'd find someone else to play.

Nabterayl
09-21-2009, 12:11 PM
How do you treat the legs and arms on a Defiler.

Defilers are actually easy. Page 72 of the rulebook:


If a walker has a base, measure ranges and distances to and from its base, as you would for an infantry model. If a walker does not have a base (like the Chaos Defiler), measure to and from its hull (including its legs and other limbs), as normal for vehicles. (emphasis added)

So yes, the legs and claws of a Defiler are part of its "hull."

Drop pods doors and Valkyrie wings ... those are still a problem.

Sharp
09-21-2009, 01:20 PM
Well, that just opens a whole new can of worms. My defiler doesn't have his Arms/Legs glued in position. Since they are on Ball joints they can move around.

Vince
09-21-2009, 03:28 PM
As long as you are not moving the arms and legs during the game why would that be a issue?

phoenyxx
09-22-2009, 01:58 PM
As long as you are not moving the arms and legs during the game why would that be a issue?

Vince is correct. If the arms/legs of your defiler can move then you need to put them in 1 position at the start of the game and leave them there for the duration.

mercer
09-23-2009, 05:24 AM
How would that change? The arms and legs can move, but they are still there and extend further than the hull, so they can still be targetted regardless of what position they are in.

entendre_entendre
09-23-2009, 02:21 PM
As long as you are not moving the arms and legs during the game why would that be a issue?

you've never played with loose defiler joints have you? those bloody things never stay put/always fall out. when you move the thing, the legs/arms move, either intentionally or unintentionally. this can cause a lot of headaches for the chaos player if you have to carefully adjust the legs to the exact same position every turn.
oh & FYI, i don't glue the legs in or the defiler wouldn't fit in the army box.

Vince
09-23-2009, 02:47 PM
I was addressing the comment that said '

"Well, that just opens a whole new can of worms. My defiler doesn't have his Arms/Legs glued in position. Since they are on Ball joints they can move around.
09-21-2009 01:11 PM"

and was trying to say in this particular example that as long as you play the arms and legs the whole way and dont try to pose the model ingame for a advantage this should not be a issue.

While I have not personally played with a loose defiler it seems like if a model can not stay assembled for a game then I would assume the issue is with the way the player put it together. All the people that I have played that use a defiler are able to have it stay on the tabletop the full game. From playing against a defiler the rule as least as far as I know it is you treat the arms and legs as true line of sight. If you can see it you can shoot it as this is the base look of the model and not a fancy conversion. The defiler is supposed to roughly look the same as the one in the book at least as far as size dimensions go. If you are modeling it to have extra long arms that extend more then the model is meant to your basically trying to cheat by conversion and if I thought it was a unfair advantage I would just call a judge and try to get the model disqualified. In a friendly game if your buddy wants to let you put 12inch arms on your guy and assault from 12 inches away then more power to you.