1500 Nurlge Themed CSM

[Infinite Resignation]

Here is my first attempt at a Nurgle themed CSM army. I have a bucket full of 2nd Ed style Plague Marines and need to do something with them! Comments/advice please!


Daemon Prince, MoN 130

Dreadnaught, ML, PC 105
Dreadnaught, ML, AC 110
Dreadnaught, ML, MM 100

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Rhino 170

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Rhino 170

Plague Marines x5
Flamer x2
Rhino 160

Plague Marines x5
Plasmagun x2
Rhino 180

Vindicator 125
Vindcator 125
Vindcator 125

Grand Total: 1500

[Chexmix282]

It's a good list, although I would definitely replace the Plasmaguns on the Plague Marine Squad with Meltaguns, and with the points saved change all dreadnoughts to AC/ML, as you will need that 48" range fire support more than the Multi-Melta or Plasma Cannon. I would also try to change the Flamers on the 3rd Plague Marine squad to Meltas, but you don't have the points. You can never have enough Melta, and with 3 Vindicators you really do not need Flamers or Plasma.

What are you doing with your HQ? He's slow without wings, and doesn't really add much to the army. I know this doesn't fit your theme, but I would exchange him for a Slaanesh Sorcerer with Lash of Submission. This will be very useful with your Vindicators, and will also give the points necessary to change your Dreadnoughts around.

The list would look like this:

Sorcerer 125
-Mark of Slaanesh, lash

3 x Dreadnought 330
-TL Autocannon, Missile Launcher

3 x 5 Plague Marines 510
-2 Meltaguns, Rhino

5 Plague Marines 160
-2 Flamers, Rhino

3 x Vindicator 375

1500

I would also try to get Possession on the Vindicators, but points are too tight for that. Hope this helps!

[blackarmchair]

I'm not sure about the dreadnoughts, CSM dreads have a tendency to go crazy and start shooting their own units (I know the FAQ helps with this) but I might consider some other options.

I see your Heavy Support is full so Obliterators are no longer an option for long-ranged fire but with 300+ points you can certainly do a lot with terminators who can bring autocannons and chainfists to the party to lend to anti-tank? Just a thought.

[Infinite Resignation]

Thanks to both of you for the input.

Chexmix you are absolutely right about the dreads weapons, I included the dreads for long range fire support so I should maximise that. There is certainly no need for a plasma cannon with three vindicators about! Funny what you don't see, it is kinda obvious really...

The Daemon Prince was really there to take heat off the dreads, but you are right, with wings he has much more chance of getting into combat, he can run behind the Vindicators and then jump over them to get into combat. The wings are a better buy than the Mark of Nurgle in this context.

It is a shame about the flamers, but this list is to the wire with points so there isn't room for meltas. I don't want to lose a dread or vindicator just to give some bells and whistles to everything else.

I appreciate that the utility of the las Sorcerer is good but this is ultimately a themed army so I'll go with the DP. If I find that I'm losing all the time then I might change my mind! Another possibility is a Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos to try to snipe out enemy characters, but the fact that this power is used at the beginning of the turn and only has a range of 6 inches makes it difficult to set up as you have to be in range at the start of the turn, so its easy to avoid.

With the winged DP the poor last squad is dow to one flamer, but I can't find a way to remedy this which wouldn't hurt more!

@Blackarmchair, yes Chaos Dreads are unpredictable, but the codex has so few ways to get long range weapons in outside of the HS section that I think they are essential. Occassionally fire frenzy woks in your favour, but it is frustrating when they break cover to run pointlessly forward, especially shooty dreds! I still prefer them to terminators though, although three three man termie squads is the same price, the dreads have more guns and they contribute to the armour saturation with the AP values, to swamp the enemy with relatively high AP targets and tough infantry. I have a bunch of terminators I can proxy so I will try your suggestion out though, their ability to deep strike in behind the enemy and then shoot with their autocannons is certainly tempting...

So my list is now:

Daemon Prince, wings 130

Dreadnaught, ML, AC 110
Dreadnaught, ML, AC 110
Dreadnaught, ML, AC 110

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Rhino 170

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Rhino 170

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Rhino 170

Plague Marines x5
Flamer x1
Rhino 155

Vindicator 125
Vindcator 125
Vindcator 125

Grand Total: 1500

Wish I could do something about that unit with the single flamer, but maybe in the next codex eh? :D

[Chexmix282]

When you realize how much of a let down the Daemon Prince is and change him to a Lash Sorcerer you'll have the 5 points for that extra flamer ;)

[MattHoell]

Chexmix, what part of "nurgle themed" list don't you get??

I have tried using dreads in the past and they are terrible. They fire frenzy 2" from the enemy or assault when you want them to shoot.

Worse of all with your list, a lot of the time they will be shooting your own rhinos, and chances are really good blowing them up. I have always regretted taking them.

I would drop all 3, maybe replace them with a Chosen squad with the mark of nurgle, with a ton of meltas, out flank them and they can get into the enemy really well.

I would also think about swapping our a vindi for a defiler to give you that range you are looking for.

Finally I have found lesser daemons a must for any cult themed army. Your troops are too valuable and costly to just be sitting on objectives. Sit a squad of daemons on an objective, they are cheap, have them do to ground, they have a +3 cover and the enemy has to kill everyone-of-them.

On a similar note I find great daemons a nice addition to turn the tide when you need it.

Hope that helps!!

[Chexmix282]

I get it, I have a Death Guard army myself (very similar to this one, in fact). With a book this old you rarely can make compromises for theme in a tournament setting, however. The DP fits the theme, sure, but outside of your list nobody will know the Sorcerer doesn't fit the theme if he's modeled/painted accordingly.

If you are taking this to a non-comped tournament, there simply is no reason to take the DP over the Sorc. Man, CSM seriously need a codex update.

And the dreads won't kill your rhinos as long as you position their fire arcs accordingly.

[Jerseyboy381]

I don't know why there's this sudden Prince hate. I've run 2 Nurgle winged princes since I started playing CSM and they've never failed to impress me. Princes are great MC's and a very cost effective HQ choice. Ever since GW neutered Warptime, they've lost some effectiveness, but this just means they've gotten cheaper.

[Chexmix282]

DPs with wings are great, but in this list he didn't have points for wings. The nerf to Warptime was awful, but DPs still have their uses. I just wouldn't take one without wings.

[the jeske]

so you have unpossessed vindis , which on stun turn in to LoS blockers and have to move closer to enemy to get in range. melta pms that have to get inside 14" or lower to use melta .and your only realy long range support for those units , that have to move up field , are 3 dreads with 2 shoting weapons each that are slower then both vindis and the pm rhinos ? so in case they go crazy [3 dudes 30% chance to go crazy one should be doing something you dont want every turn] they will always see the low back or side armor [check the side armor on the vindis by the way. ponder fast moving units in 5th ed] of your main force.
Isnt that kind of a problem /

[Infinite Resignation]

One fundamental problem with the codex is that for their points most things just aren't very killy- ie the potential damage your army can put out per turn is very low. I have the Dreads (and the vindicators too, to a degree) because for their points Chaos Dreads are one of the killiest things in the dex.

With careful positioning most issues can be overcome, there is certainly almost no need to have them killing your own troops.

Another problem is that each of the cult troops has a flaw- Noise Marines are overpriced and pay for a higher initiative they'll never use, Berserkers need an assault vehicle but don't get one, Thousand Sons have to pay for the ballast of an unwanted Sorcerer, and Plague Marines, while great backfield objective sitters, have no long range weapons. This is why the first iteration of this list had a squad with plasmaguns.

It would be possible to take normal CSM to make up for this but they are overpriced and have to be in 10s to get a long range weapon.

I agree that possession would be good on the Vindicators, but what is better, 3 Vindies or two with possession? I would argue that 3 is better, but how about a compromise and 2 vindicators with possession and a naked predator?

I also agree that Daemons would be good, but what is better, 5 plague marines in a rhino to sit on your objective, or 10 lesser daemons? Well I'm happy to try the daemon option, so lets give that a go.

Anyway if I do away with one squad and one Vindicator we get the following:

Daemon Prince, wings, MoN 150

Dreadnaught, ML, AC 110
Dreadnaught, ML, AC 110
Dreadnaught, ML, AC 110

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Icon
Rhino 175

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Icon
Rhino 175

Plague Marines x5
Meltagun x2
Icon
Rhino 175

Lesser Daemons x5 65
Lesser Daemons x5 65

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession 145
Vindcator, Daemonic Possession 145
Predator (with extra bolter cos there's 5 points left...) 75

Is this better? Thoughts? (I should say that this isn't meant to be a tournament list, but a 'hard' themed list that won't lose every time at the club/store!)

[Chexmix282]

I would rather have a third Possessed Vindicator instead of a second unit of Daemons. You would also have to drop an Icon somewhere, but that's ok. Target saturation is very important with Vindicators. You only need one unit if you are using them as cheap objective grabbers anyway. The predator just doesn't add much to the army, IMO.

This is a very good themed list. I run my Plague Marines and Summoned Daemons in units of 7 though, for Nurgle's sacred number. They are a bit more survivable that way, but it's not that big of an issue with T5/FNP on the PMs.

[The Plumber]

It's a good list, although I would definitely replace the Plasmaguns on the Plague Marine Squad with Meltaguns, and with the points saved change all dreadnoughts to AC/ML, as you will need that 48" range fire support more than the Multi-Melta or Plasma Cannon. I would also try to change the Flamers on the 3rd Plague Marine squad to Meltas, but you don't have the points. You can never have enough Melta, and with 3 Vindicators you really do not need Flamers or Plasma.

What are you doing with your HQ? He's slow without wings, and doesn't really add much to the army. I know this doesn't fit your theme, but I would exchange him for a Slaanesh Sorcerer with Lash of Submission. This will be very useful with your Vindicators, and will also give the points necessary to change your Dreadnoughts around.

The list would look like this:

Sorcerer 125
-Mark of Slaanesh, lash

3 x Dreadnought 330
-TL Autocannon, Missile Launcher

3 x 5 Plague Marines 510
-2 Meltaguns, Rhino

5 Plague Marines 160
-2 Flamers, Rhino

3 x Vindicator 375

1500

I would also try to get Possession on the Vindicators, but points are too tight for that. Hope this helps!

This guy speaks sense, but lash has been nerfed in the erratas and now needs to roll to hit(why do GW keep raping an already crap dex?:mad:) the plague marine squads are perfect IMO, plasmas work well with them because you get FNP against over heats.

Another great unit that most people seem to overlook is the greater daemon. If you have a nurgley looking monstous creature, stick one in! 100 points plus a champ to possess is a bargain for the amount of damage they do, especially considering they can assault as soon as they arrive! I took one myself to throne of skulls tourny earlier this year where he took down no less than a C 'tan and mephiston!!! (stupid space vampire)

[Sure]

So here is a totally douche-bags (and fun) way to get around the fire-frenzy issue:

1. Equip all 3 dreads with missile launchers and close combat weapons (disperse the points doing that as you see fit).

2. Run the Dreads together so they are the closest units to eachother and are never in eachother's rear arc.

3. fire frag missiles if you fire frenzy.

you lose some firepower by foregoing the heavier weaponry, but it's a viable comprimise.

[the jeske]

So here is a totally douche-bags (and fun) way to get around the fire-frenzy issue:

1. Equip all 3 dreads with missile launchers and close combat weapons (disperse the points doing that as you see fit).

2. Run the Dreads together so they are the closest units to eachother and are never in eachother's rear arc.

3. fire frag missiles if you fire frenzy.

you lose some firepower by foregoing the heavier weaponry, but it's a viable comprimise.
only he also runs AC on his dreads . and 2 str 7 shots are more dangerouse then a single str 8 one against av12.


also saying that positioning fixes dread portals is wishful thinking . if your opponent knows that dreads have rage rules[and why wouldnt he?] , then he has the options not you . he will just move his army that you can either engaged him with taking shots from own dreads or not , because its not like he doesnt see how the firelines will be after his turn of movment .+ let us not forget that chaos dreads even if they never went crazy are still av12 walkers with unpotimal weapon load outs [no rifleman possible] . if a dread gets stuned [and again av12 does get stuned] the list has -1 long range support units . considering that on avarge 1 dreads goes crazy per turn , this means that this list may have invested 300pts in to a single autocannon.

[Sure]

only he also runs AC on his dreads . and 2 str 7 shots are more dangerouse then a single str 8 one against av12.


also saying that positioning fixes dread portals is wishful thinking . if your opponent knows that dreads have rage rules[and why wouldnt he?] , then he has the options not you . he will just move his army that you can either engaged him with taking shots from own dreads or not , because its not like he doesnt see how the firelines will be after his turn of movment .+ let us not forget that chaos dreads even if they never went crazy are still av12 walkers with unpotimal weapon load outs [no rifleman possible] . if a dread gets stuned [and again av12 does get stuned] the list has -1 long range support units . considering that on avarge 1 dreads goes crazy per turn , this means that this list may have invested 300pts in to a single autocannon.

No plan is fool-proof, dude! It's an idea and it can work. Besides, if there was a strategy without a counter there'd be no point to playing. I truly hope you're not an internet one-upper. (Dude 1: I'm really into the scissors, they're cool! Dude 2: Oh ,well what are you gonna do when I bring the rocks! What are you gonna do, man! You usuck and I'm the smartest! Dude 3: [goes on as dude 2 did about scissors and rocks but with paper]. Dude 1: I friggin' hate the internet and this hobby, I'm goign back to taxidermy school!)

Also, if the opponent goes through all that trouble just to deal with Chaos Dreads with missile launchers, they're probably leaving you an opening somewhere else. That's part of this game...sort of like (real) wrestling. Every move has a counter, every counter in turn has another counter and so on. It's just a matter of who's executing better. (Then you throw in the dice, and your ability isn't so important.)