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Lerra
09-21-2009, 12:31 AM
HQ:
Logan Grimnar: 275
Rune Priest (Jaws of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane, Master of Runes): 120-ish
Wolf Priest (Frost Blade): 120

Troops:

Blood Claws (14): 210
1x Flamer

Wolf Guard (5): 245
5x terminator armor
4x combi-melta
1x storm shield
1x power fist
Drop pod

Wolf Guard (5): 270
5x terminator armor
3x twin wolf claws
1x storm shield
1x powerfist
Drop pod

Wolf Guard (7): 281
5x terminator armor
1x Assault Cannon
1x powerfist
2x Wolf Guard "Sergeant" with Power Fist

Heavy:

Long Fang Squad (6): 190
3x Heavy Bolter (15)
2x Multi-melta (40)
Drop Pod

Land Raider Crusader: 265
Multi-melta
Extra Armor


The big picture:
14 Blood Claws, 1 Wolf Guard (PF), and 1 Wolf Priest in a LRC
6 Long Fangs, Rune Priest, and Logan in a Drop Pod
5 Terminators in a Drop Pod next to Logan

Logan gives relentless to the Long Fangs turn 1, and then he joins up with the nearby terminator squad as soon as possible.

Caveat: I have yet to get my hands on an actual codex, so points are likely incorrect in a few areas. I should have about 20 points of wiggle room, though.

Levitas
09-21-2009, 07:33 AM
Be interesting to see how 'Logan-wing' works out. But off the bat you are seriously low on numbers, plus players have had good practice in bringing down terminator heavy lists. I personally dont see it has really competitive. At 2k, both Guard and Orks will bring numbers AND hurt. Play guard with a couple of punishers and you'll be surprised how many 1's you roll on saves!

WG are so much more expensive than their vanilla marine counterparts. Only good in small numbers where they can mix in with the squads and buff them up. As an out and out force they are just too pricey.

4 or 5 strong GH squads with a handful of rune priests/stormcaller will be strong. Throw in marks of the wulfen and free meltas in rhinos. You can take almost 2 rune priests and a Battle leader for the price of logan, who will do more damage to more targets.

Wolfpriests are just not that great. Put a decent wolfguard in the squad with claws and an LRC and it will do just as much damage.

I think it would be a fun list, and against certain builds would do well. But at a competitive level it might loose its way a little and need a nip and tuck.

Chumbalaya
09-21-2009, 08:42 AM
It's gonna be tricky to squeeze in Loganwing and other stuff. WG are expensive, WG termies are more expensive.

BCs are meh, a single LRC is going to draw plenty of fire.

If you want to drop Wolfwing, then stick with it. A bunch of DW squads with assault cannons, combi-meltas, 1 storm shield+chainfist, toss them in DPs. Dreads in DPs work wonders, and DS-ing Speeders give you some extra mobile firepower.

Logan + Long Fangs is a fun combo, but it's ridiculously expensive, so be careful. Add a plain jane WG to soak up a hit as well, optional storm shield.

mkerr
09-21-2009, 09:28 AM
@Lerra: Sweet! A Logan list!

Here are my comments:

1. I'd go with Tempest's Wrath instead of Murderous Hurricane for my second power.
2. I'd stick with the Crozius for the Wolf Priest, but I'd add a Wolftail Necklace.

3. Blood Claws are decent, but I'm really loving Grey Hunters. They are a much more tolerant unit. BCs only work if you use them perfectly -- if they don't get the assault, then they are in trouble. GHs work even if you make some mistakes. And Mark of the Wulfen is awesome.

4. If you are going to put Logan in a Drop Pod, then you should go with either 5 Lascannon or 5 Multi-meltas. That gives you the biggest benefit for Relentless on the turn you arrive and Tank Hunter in the subsequent rounds.

I love the idea of a ton of meltaguns (and multimeltas) clearing a path for heavy assault units. The army should be able to focus on the tougest parts of your opponent's army.

The army kind of falls apart of your opponent holds his army in reserve; you'll have to trust on those 2+ saves to pull a lot of weight.

All-in-all, it looks like a small, elite army that could be a lot of fun.

--mkerr

Lerra
09-21-2009, 12:49 PM
Thanks for the critiques! Changes: it's expensive to run 3 HQs in an elite-heavy list, especially when one of them is Logan. I dropped the wolf priest, the BC squad and the Land Raider for 2 grey hunter squads in drop pods and another terminator squad. I would like to put the grey hunters in rhinos because it feels better, but with 5 pods in the army I can drop 3 turn 1, and I'm not sure if the rhino gives the same kind of benefit.

HQ:
Logan Grimnar: 275
Rune Priest (Jaws of the World Wolf, Tempest's Wrath): 100

Troops:

Wolf Guard (5): 245
5x terminator armor
4x combi-melta
1x storm shield
1x power fist
Drop pod

Wolf Guard (5): 270
5x terminator armor
3x twin wolf claws
1x storm shield
1x powerfist
Drop pod

Wolf Guard (5): 220
5x terminator armor
1x assault cannon
1x powerfist
1x storm shield

Wolf Guard (6): 238
5x terminator armor
1x assault cannon
1x powerfist
1x storm shield
Wolf Guard "Sergeant" for Long Fang Squad

Grey Hunters (10): 205
1x flamer
1x meltagun
1x power weapon
Mark of the Wulfen
Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (10): 205
2x meltagun
1x power weapon
Mark of the Wulfen
Drop Pod

Heavy:

Long Fang Squad (6): 225
5x Multi-melta (100)
Drop Pod

mkerr
09-21-2009, 02:18 PM
@Lerra: You've still got two units on foot? Or am I missing something? I think you really need to get those guys in Drop Pods too.

I'm looking foward to seeing how the army plays.

-- mkerr

Chumbalaya
09-21-2009, 03:37 PM
Yeah, definitely stick every squad in Pods, otherwise they can get hosed really quick turn 1.

I'd drop out the GH for Dreads, they give you more melta, can tie up problem units for Termies (boyz, Banshees, and so on). Also, if points allow, deep striking MM/HF speeders would be very useful to reach out an touch someone from your fairly slow army.

Lerra
09-21-2009, 04:17 PM
Hmm. You are both right. I should just buck up and buy the drop pods for everyone. I was letting my cheapness ($$$) get in the way ;)

I like your dreadnought idea too Chumbalaya.

Duke
09-21-2009, 05:05 PM
Though I see the point of Chumbalaya with the dreads I would say keep the GH. They are the all-stars of this Codex, IMHO.

I would seriously go all or nothing with the pods though.

Chumbalaya
09-21-2009, 06:13 PM
The problem with GH is not GH themselves, but the Pod's capacity. A DP can only hold 10 models, so you're stuck between 2 meltas and 0 combat ability (1 attack powerfists and random rending doesn't cut it) plus Ld8 or 1 melta, Ld9 and something halfway decent in an assault. For Podding, not so great as you need the melta early to knock out vehicles before they run circles around you.

mkerr
09-21-2009, 06:37 PM
The problem with GH is not GH themselves, but the Pod's capacity. A DP can only hold 10 models, so you're stuck between 2 meltas and 0 combat ability (1 attack powerfists and random rending doesn't cut it) plus Ld8 or 1 melta, Ld9 and something halfway decent in an assault. For Podding, not so great as you need the melta early to knock out vehicles before they run circles around you.

In Drop Pods, you want some ability to deal close combat damage no matter role you have planned for the Grey Hunters. But I see two main builds in the Drop Pod pipeline:

1. 10 Grey Hunters w/2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon, 1 mark of the wulfen
2. 9 Grey Hunters w/1 meltagun, 1 power weapon, 1 mark of the wulfen and a Wolf Guard with a power weapon (or combi-melta or power fist).

"Squad" #1 costs 205pts and squad #2 costs 248pts (including transports).

Both squads are pretty decent for the points.

Squad #1 gives you 18 bolter shots and 2 meltagun shots on the turn it arrives. If it gets charged (and makes its LD test), it dishes out 24 regular attacks, 3 power weapon attacks and D6+2 rending attacks. For an average of 6.8 regular wounding hits and 1.2 power weapon wounding hits (against WS4 T4 models).

Squad #2 gives you 20 bolter shots and 1 meltagun shot when it arrives (5 extra points would give the WG a combi-melta in this unit). If it is charged it dishes out 21 regular attacks, 7 power weapon attacks and D6+2 rending attacks. That averages 6.2 regular wounding hits and 2.2 power weapon wounding hits.

Not too shabby.

-- mkerr

P.S. Here's a little anecdotal experience that I've had with my LD8 Grey Hunters. I also thought that the LD8 was going to be a problem (and compensated with WG and ICs), but in my last few test games it worked out well for me. My units came out of drop pods (well past mid-field) and shot up my opponent. When my opponent chose to shoot me - instead of assaulting me - I'd break about half the time. When I broke, I would fall back and re-group thanks to ATSKNF. It ended up being a poor man's Combat Tactics (much to the frustration of my opponent). The LD8 didn't hurt me too much in close combats because I usually tied or won them.

Chumbalaya
09-21-2009, 10:04 PM
And see, I dunno, that just doesn't seem like it's got enough oomph. Bolter shots and S4 attacks are going to mess up massed infantry, but what isn't? If a unit has to drop in one the front lines, I'd much rather they continue to contribute beyond one and done suicide melta drops. Tactical Squads get the multi-melta, so they can sit back and still influence the game, GH have to get dangerously close to do any damage or just kinda sit back and take it on an objective. Seems like a Dread or tough unit like Nob Bikers would have a field day with them, unless they brought along a WG with powerfist.

They're a solid unit, no doubt, but definitely not the bestest evar that prevailing internet wisdom currently subscribes to.

Big Jim
09-21-2009, 11:37 PM
And see, I dunno, that just doesn't seem like it's got enough oomph. Bolter shots and S4 attacks are going to mess up massed infantry, but what isn't? If a unit has to drop in one the front lines, I'd much rather they continue to contribute beyond one and done suicide melta drops. Tactical Squads get the multi-melta, so they can sit back and still influence the game, GH have to get dangerously close to do any damage or just kinda sit back and take it on an objective. Seems like a Dread or tough unit like Nob Bikers would have a field day with them, unless they brought along a WG with powerfist.

They're a solid unit, no doubt, but definitely not the bestest evar that prevailing internet wisdom currently subscribes to.

These have been this issues Grey Hunters have always had, the only thing they lost from the 3rd ed codex was a power weapon/fist option, and a plasma pistol. They did gain the second special weapon at 10 men and the MotW which lessens the blow of the power weapon/fist loss.

I realize that you are trying to make a point about the internet going gaga over the GH, but do you really need to do it in every Space Wolf army thread that pops up?

DarkLink
09-22-2009, 02:06 PM
On another note, your Long fang squad is cheaper than you think. 6 long fangs with 4 multi meltas and a drop pod is 175pts, not 225.

Grey Hunters are great, but I don't feel the power weapon on a normal guy is worth the points if you stick a wolf guard in the unit. Give the wolf guard a combi melta and whatever ccw you like best. Just my opinion though.

Both Grey Hunters and Dreadnoughts are great for slightly different things, I would play test lists with 2 Grey hunters, 2 dreadnoughts, and 1 of each and see which you like better.

mkerr
09-22-2009, 02:39 PM
If a unit has to drop in one the front lines, I'd much rather they continue to contribute beyond one and done suicide melta drops. Tactical Squads get the multi-melta, so they can sit back and still influence the game, GH have to get dangerously close to do any damage or just kinda sit back and take it on an objective.

Yes, you have to use Grey Hunters a bit differently than you use Tactical marines, but it doesn't make them less effective. In 2/3rds of my games, I'll drop a Tactical squad and use combat squads to give me a unit with a MM and a unit that can advance to deal with small threats (or support other units).

My drop pod Grey Hunters focus their energy on one target and assault it on the second round (or counter attack on the first). Unlike a Tactical marine combat squad, they can hold their own in close combat until they receive support.

That's an important distinction. In my SM drop armies, my Tactical squads support another unit. In my DW drop armies, my other units support my Grey Hunters.


Seems like a Dread or tough unit like Nob Bikers would have a field day with them, unless they brought along a WG with powerfist.

Sure, there are units that you don't want to drop next to -- but that's the awesome part with using a Drop Pod. Don't deploy next to the Dreadnought. And even if you are unfortunate enough to get into a scrape with a Dreadnought, MotW has a chance to penetrate (combined with 9 krak grenades and you might get lucky enough to survive until help arrives). And if it doesn't then, you had a round or two of shooting before the Dreadnought assaulted you.

It's an anecdotal example, but in my last game I had a Wraithlord assault 5 Grey Hunters. I got off counter-attack and my MotW model got 7 attacks against the Wraithlord, resulting in 2 Rends that killed it. When the Wraithlord charged me, I was regretting the missing powerfist. When the dust settled, I was glad that I chose MotW instead.

Personally, I am finding 2 power weapon attacks to be superior to 1 power fist attack with my Grey Hunters. Your mileage may vary.


=They're a solid unit, no doubt, but definitely not the bestest evar that prevailing internet wisdom currently subscribes to.

Don't feel like you have to throw a wet blanket on every conversation about Grey Hunters. They are a fantastic troops choice, but only marginally better than SM Tacticals or Chaos Space Marines. They are good because they are reliable and cheap. No one is saying that they can win games by themselves.

-- mkerr

Chumbalaya
09-22-2009, 03:57 PM
If people keep going gaga over them I feel it is only fair to provide a little devil's advocate. I like GH, they're going to be a staple of many Wolf armies, but it never hurts to be aware of their limitations. It may seem like I'm being negative, but in any tactical discussion I err on the side of things not working out for me, so I go in assuming dice rolls will screw me over more than my opponent so I build in redundancies and units capable of dealing with it. That way, when the dice actually roll fairly for once I benefit all the more :P

Goatboy's last article talked about threat ranges and fun stuff like that. GH in a Pod have an initial threat area of basically the entire board, but after that it's about 18", 6" move plus rapid fire/melta. Tacticals have a 24" threat range (I understand GH can sit back and fire bolters, but they aren't terribly effective). Nob Bikers and Seer Councils have a much larger range thanks to the speed at which they can get to assault, while Dreads have superior firing range and really have nothing to fear from them outside of +2D6 melta range since in assault they will stomp on them (I know you can get lucky, but a random number of rending attacks is not reliably stopping AV12).

In a DP list I'd consider GH mandatory unless you have Logan, then WG win out in a big way. If you're dropping scoring WG, I'd rather have Dreads and Speeders over GH, because they do something WG don't: fire to good effect at range.

mkerr
09-22-2009, 05:47 PM
If people keep going gaga over them I feel it is only fair to provide a little devil's advocate. I like GH, they're going to be a staple of many Wolf armies, but it never hurts to be aware of their limitations. It may seem like I'm being negative, but in any tactical discussion I err on the side of things not working out for me, so I go in assuming dice rolls will screw me over more than my opponent so I build in redundancies and units capable of dealing with it. That way, when the dice actually roll fairly for once I benefit all the more :P

Your comments (e.g., "Tactical Squads get the multi-melta") make it sound like you don't like Grey Hunters because they aren't exactly like Tactical marines. The important thing to realize is that, although very similar to Tactical marines, you aren't going to use them the same way.

Drop Pod Grey Hunters aren't going to be units that squat on an objective and fire a heavy weapon. In my test games so far, my Grey Hunters have performed best when they land, shoot and prepare for an assault (or a counter-attack). Their job has been to hold the enemy in place until my main assault force gets there.

Since we're going to see more HQ in SW armies, we're going to see them attached to Rune Priests (and special characters) more often than sitting alone in a Drop Pod. I'm expecting a Rune Priest and 8-9 Grey Hunters (and maybe a Wolf Guard) to be the staple unit.


Goatboy's last article talked about threat ranges and fun stuff like that. GH in a Pod have an initial threat area of basically the entire board, but after that it's about 18", 6" move plus rapid fire/melta. Tacticals have a 24" threat range (I understand GH can sit back and fire bolters, but they aren't terribly effective).

You are thinking "threat ranges" are "shooting ranges", but that's not the case with Grey Hunters. You almost always want your Grey Hunters (unless they are attached to a Rune Priest) to be moving toward an assault. Or, even better, they get into a position that forces your opponent to assault them.

So if you want to think threat ranges, then the initial round is the same as (or slightly better than) Tactical marines. But unlike your average Tactical marine squad, you want your Grey Hunters in that 12"-18" range. Not because you want to want to rapid-fire your bolters, but because you want your Grey Hunters to be assaulted. Land near a unit, rapid-fire into them and force your opponent to choose between running away and assaulting you.


Nob Bikers and Seer Councils have a much larger range thanks to the speed at which they can get to assault, while Dreads have superior firing range and really have nothing to fear from them outside of +2D6 melta range since in assault they will stomp on them (I know you can get lucky, but a random number of rending attacks is not reliably stopping AV12).

It's not really reasonable to compare a 400pt unit to a squad of Grey Hunters, but let's go with it. Sure, they have a longer threat range thanks to being mounted on bikes and jet bikes. But when facing the inevitable 4 JotWW armies (with some Murderous Hurricane and Tempest's Wrath thrown in for fun), Nob Bikers and Seer Councils are going to other things to worry about than assaulting one of my Grey Hunter units.

And sure, Dreadnoughts (and most other walkers and monstrous creatures) are going to be a tough nut to crack for your average Grey Hunters squad. But the nice thing about Drop Pods is that I'm not going to be in that position. I'll drop in a location that gives me a round of shooting with my long-range high-S weapons and some melta shots. That will make dealing with walkers a bit easier.

It's easy to say "Grey Hunters suck because they can't deal with this unit". If that was an actual argument, then all of the units in the game would suck.

-- mkerr

Jakz
09-22-2009, 06:18 PM
Comparing Grey Hunters to Nobs or Seer Councils is really crazyness especially when not at a point for point basis (which has always been off as lists are more balanced to themselves in cost not necessarily other lists) but the GH's are a really stout unit. The leadership 8 can be harsh but it is only 11.1% worse than having leadership 9 from a Wolf Guard. With the 10 man transport limit you are going to see more leaderless GH squads than those with a Wolf Guard attached. I really think with Blood Claws they missed the mark by not offsetting their lowered stats with a higher weapon upgrade ratio which was what made them useful in the previous codex.

As for the list the second version should be serviceable but I am at this point, especially in a tournament environment, more in favor of Mech as opposed to Drop Pods. The prevalence of IG armies with Inquisitors and Mystics makes Deep Striking a real threat. This new Space Wolves codex is really well designed for shaping the flow of the battle with your opponent. Between the number of special weapons, the psychic powers, and the quality of our devastators makes this army very proactive in a Mech list with your models on the table. Drop Pods make you very reactive against what the opponent is doing and I do not think that is the strength of what this army can do. It can put up a lot of threats and I would rather make my opponent work against my threats than to have to react to his.

Chumbalaya
09-22-2009, 08:59 PM
But Grey Hunters don't suck, that's the point. They don't suck, but they aren't awesome either.

If they don't hold the objective, who does? Somebody's got to, that's why I like min sized GH squads in Rhinos backing up forward units.

If you bring them down with 8 bodies, a WG and a Priest, you don't get the second melta and lose a lot of potency against tanks. When this whole JotWW nonsense dies down you'll see what I mean. It's a fun spell, but all it really does is make bad armies worse (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons) while the rest don't really care sitting safely in their vehicles that just 1 melta is having a tough time cracking.

Grey Hunters, like tacticals, are a good support units, moving in to secure objectives and finish stuff off. The real breadwinners of this book are looking to be Wolf Guard, anything on a Thunderwolf and heavy firepower units like Dreads, Speeders, and Predators. HQs too of course.

Comparing them to Nob Bikers and Councils is totally unfair, which is what makes these units good. They have the mobility to make unfair fights happen. That's the risk DP armies run, getting isolated and picked up by mean, mobile units and armies. And against those sorts of units, a bunch of S4 attacks aren't going to cause them much trouble.

GH are good, great support Troops that can get cheap melta and lots of attacks. They can be made scarier with WG and added HQs, but then you're giving up on the cheap melta and low cost of the unit. In a DP list like the OP's though, I'd rather have Dreads.

mkerr
09-22-2009, 09:17 PM
But Grey Hunters don't suck, that's the point. They don't suck, but they aren't awesome either.

They are just about as good as Troops get in the game. Being one of the best Troops selections around is pretty awesome in my book. I'm not suggesting that you use them without support, but if I had to pick a unit to survive on their own for a few turns then I'd pick Grey Hunters.


In a DP list like the OP's though, I'd rather have Dreads.

Then why didn't you just say that?

-- mkerr

Chumbalaya
09-23-2009, 06:26 AM
I did, then I explained myself, and then we got on a huge tangent ;)

mkerr
09-23-2009, 08:57 AM
I did, then I explained myself, and then we got on a huge tangent ;)

Well, I'm all for Dreadnoughts in a Space Wolves drop pod army. They play several important roles, not the least of which is some Wolfooth Necklace smack down.

-- mkerr

Lerra
10-04-2009, 10:59 PM
After playing a few test games, I've revised my list a bit (2k points):

HQ

Logan Grimnar 275
Rune Priest 110 (Jaws of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane, Chooser of the Slain)

Troops

5-man Wolf Guard Pack: 255
2x Terminator Armor, Lightning Claw/Combi-Melta
2x Terminator Armor, Powerfist/Combi-Melta
1x Terminator Armor, Lightning Claw/Storm Shield
Drop Pod

5-man Wolf Guard Pack: 250
3x Terminator Armor, Lightning Claw/Combi-Plasma
1x Terminator Armor, Powerfist/Combi-Plasma
1x Terminator Armor, Lightning Claw/Storm Shield
Drop Pod

5-man Wolf Guard Pack: 245
1x Wolf Guard in Power Armor, Storm Shield/Combi-Plasma
2x Terminator Armor, Lightning Claw/Combi-Plasma
2x Terminator Armor, Powerfist/Combi-Plasma
(Rune Priest)
Drop Pod

9+1 man Grey Hunter Squad: 223
1x Meltagun
1x Mark of the Wulfen
Wolf Guard Sergeant with Mark of the Wulfen (from Terminator Squad)
Drop Pod

9+1 man Grey Hunter Squad: 223
1x Meltagun
1x Mark of the Wulfen
Wolf Guard Sergeant with Mark of the Wulfen (from Terminator Squad)
Drop Pod

9+1 man Grey Hunter Squad: 223
1x Meltagun
1x Mark of the Wulfen
Wolf Guard Sergeant with Mark of the Wulfen (from Terminator Squad)
Drop Pod

Heavy Support

6+1 man Long Fang Squad: 193
5x Multi-melta
Wolf Guard Sergeant
(Logan Grimnar)
Drop Pod

I love dreadnoughts, but I haven't had one survive until turn 2 yet! The prevalence of inquisitor/mystic teams means that my dreadnought is shot at before he can pop smoke.

I want to like Tempest's Wrath, but there seems to be a severe shortage of "Skimmers, Jetbikes, Jump Infantry, and units arriving from Deep Strike" around here unless I'm playing vs. Tau, and I'm not too worried about those games.

For what it's worth: local meta-game is about 50% MEQ, 20% Tyranid, and 10% Tau. Most lists run 2-3 pieces of armor, but 5 is the max. No fully-mech players in my area (our IG players like footslogging).