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View Full Version : Tau Titans/Superheavies (or lack thereof)



ThePov
09-21-2009, 01:01 PM
Okay, first off, I admit I am no way up on Tau fluff in any incarnation, so there probably will be in-universe answers to all my questions, which I'd be quite interested to hear.

Anyway, am I the only one who finds it wierd that the Tau do not have any sort of titans or superheavy tanks? I mean look, Imperials, Chaos, and Orks all have them, and the Tau come up against them all pretty regularly, so I find it hard to believe that the Tau, a race which has a love of cutting-edge technology, constanty uses single-person battlesuits, and fields the largest single flyer (for which there are rules) in the 40K universe, is either unaware of the concept or have not decided to pursue the concept for a version of their own. Even the Eldar, who are a dying race, and the Tyranids, who have no technology AT ALL, have titans! It seems to me this would be a major tactical and strategic hole in the Tau armory, as all the Imperials/Orks/Chaos/what have you would have to do is bring a few Titans on-world and the Tau would have nothing to counter with. Seriously, unless there is a VERY good fluff reason, I think it's only logical that the Tau should have some Titan or Super-heavy equivalent. Maybe they'd take the concept in an entirely new and unique direction, fine by me, but they should at least have SOMETHING superheavy short of massive dropships.

eldanesh4
09-21-2009, 01:12 PM
well ,with orbital bombardment and the like, titans are generally obsolete. (imho)
imperials generally use them 'cause they can't bear to throw anything out.
orks use them 'cause they're... well, orks.
tyranids use them becuase they see other races using them (and they don't have orbital bombardment as far as i know)
eldar have them because they have to be better at everything than everyone else. (don't get me wrong, i love elder, but... it's true, haha)
necrons don't have one becuase their monolith is badass enough
etc, etc

ThePov
09-21-2009, 01:19 PM
well ,with orbital bombardment and the like, titans are generally obsolete. (imho)
imperials generally use them 'cause they can't bear to throw anything out.
orks use them 'cause they're... well, orks.
tyranids use them becuase they see other races using them (and they don't have orbital bombardment as far as i know)
eldar have them because they have to be better at everything than everyone else. (don't get me wrong, i love elder, but... it's true, haha)
necrons don't have one becuase their monolith is badass enough
etc, etc
Well that's kind of my point. All the other races either have them (with a relatively good reason), or have a reason not to have them, in the case of Necrons and Dark Eldar. Tau, meanwhile, are ripe for having them, but inexplexably don't. And it's not just Titans (though I don't think they're obsolete, as you say, but thats a topic for another thread), Tau have no Superhavies AT ALL except for the Orca and Manta (and possibly one of their other flyers, I don't have the rules), and the success of the Baneblade, as well as the prevalnce of superheavies in other races, would suggest they are still very strategically viable, and thus the Tau are lacking strategic depth without them. They don't even have anything that's even very good at TAKING OUT superheavies.

Nabterayl
09-21-2009, 01:35 PM
Well that's kind of my point. All the other races either have them (with a relatively good reason), or have a reason not to have them, in the case of Necrons and Dark Eldar. Tau, meanwhile, are ripe for having them, but inexplexably don't. And it's not just Titans (though I don't think they're obsolete, as you say, but thats a topic for another thread), Tau have no Superhavies AT ALL except for the Orca and Manta (and possibly one of their other flyers, I don't have the rules), and the success of the Baneblade, as well as the prevalnce of superheavies in other races, would suggest they are still very strategically viable, and thus the Tau are lacking strategic depth without them. They don't even have anything that's even very good at TAKING OUT superheavies.

It's definitely a weakness in their armory. Remember that as late as 998.M41 (the Taros campaign) the Imperium was under the impression that the Tau had nothing to match their superheavies, so the mismatch you're describing is definitely based in the fluff. And it was during Taros (i.e., very late in M41) that we start to see the Tau upgrading some of their hardware, such as new models of starship, and the superheavy-hunting variant of the Tiger Shark. As of late M41 the Tau response to superheavies seems to be air power; they just don't have a big enough inventory of their planned solution.

I do have to say that the lack of superheavies seems like a very Tau thing to me. It doesn't seem to me like their style; superheavies trade efficiency for density. Faced with the choice between a Baneblade and three Hammerheads with disruption pods, railguns, and multi-trackers, I would definitely put my money on the Hammerheads, and I'm pretty sure that's how the Tau see it too.

TSINI
09-21-2009, 01:47 PM
my understanding, as an overall summary is that the imperium has been around for 40 millenia. Titans are the largest vehicles (aside from starships) that the STC technology allows the forgeworlds to make. many of the largest titans are "one-offs" the last of their kind, or just plain rare. most existing titans are simply what was left over from the old days when the imperium was truly great and powerfull.

the Tau race, on the other hand, have only recently emerged from their tiny galaxy tucked away to the east of the eye. they havent had the time or sheer manpower, let alone the resources to construct such collossal machinery.

although the lack of superheavies, is actually the opposite. the TAU spend much of their time travelling, as an expanding invasion would. this is where Forgeworld have represented it with their aircraft, in particular the manta (its heuuuuuuuugggggeeeeeee!!!!)

so they spend all their time making large transports, rather than slow weapon platforms.


or at least thats pretty much how I see it.

Emperorsmercy
09-21-2009, 02:19 PM
yeah, they have the manta (bigger, about three times bigger than a THUNDERHAWK!) but otherwise they have nothing.

Rafe_131
09-21-2009, 03:01 PM
I'd say they don't have super-heavies in tank form because they aren't a static army. They are more a hit-and-run gunline, with one rank covering the next, overlapping fields of fire, so on....From a strategic standpoint, S-H tanks would slow them down far to much for the rest of the army to work effectivley. (that's fluff btw, not tabletop)

But what they lack in armor they make up for in armor killing. Since you can field...i don't know...like..8 railcannons in a 1500 pt army, they make a lot of boom. Let alone an apoc game where superheavies get to play....That's a lot of railcannon fire. They aren't destroyer hits.....but S10 AP1 is pretty good.

ChaosLord127
09-21-2009, 04:37 PM
I always played with the idea of a giant crisis suit, probably about the size of a warhound titan. I never really thought of a way to make it work though. I was thinking the head would be a command center with a crew of 3 or 4 and use the body to hold more crisis suits... have a few railguns and maybe some sort of uber death guns on the arms.

ThePov
09-21-2009, 05:27 PM
I'd say they don't have super-heavies in tank form because they aren't a static army. They are more a hit-and-run gunline, with one rank covering the next, overlapping fields of fire, so on....From a strategic standpoint, S-H tanks would slow them down far to much for the rest of the army to work effectivley. (that's fluff btw, not tabletop)

But what they lack in armor they make up for in armor killing. Since you can field...i don't know...like..8 railcannons in a 1500 pt army, they make a lot of boom. Let alone an apoc game where superheavies get to play....That's a lot of railcannon fire. They aren't destroyer hits.....but S10 AP1 is pretty good.
Well, the Eldar have superheavy skimmer tanks. They're not exactly the MOST mobile things in the world, but still, with a little Tau ingenuity, the concept might work.

Gotthammer
09-22-2009, 12:28 AM
Fil Dunn's made a couple:

http://coolminiornot.com/210732

http://coolminiornot.com/231208

Rafe_131
09-22-2009, 08:20 AM
Well, the Eldar have superheavy skimmer tanks. They're not exactly the MOST mobile things in the world, but still, with a little Tau ingenuity, the concept might work.

Agreed. I'm not defending they "whys", just brainstorming as to "why not". I just figured it's because the Tau wage war in a more guerilla fashion. Even their large masses of troops are "Hunter Cadres". That reeks of hit and run, where a superheavy would slow them up. BUT, I think a Titan of some sort would fit great with that fluff.

Grotzooka
09-22-2009, 08:42 AM
If you stop and think about it, Titans are very silly. Huge walking things akin to battleships? We stopped relying on battleships after WW1, because they were so slow and easy to destroy with air power. The Tau could build titans if they wanted to, but they build smaller quicker things that can't be targeted so easily. Plus, they have the most fleshed-out air force in the 40k universe.

AirHorse
09-22-2009, 08:56 AM
the tau dont have warp technology do they? And titans would be rubbish without void shields lets face it. Could be a pretty important reason why the tau havent gone "jumbo" :P

Emperorsmercy
09-22-2009, 09:06 AM
he must have used loads of tanks/shiny tau bits to make that... It would defiantly take a long time.

schoon
09-23-2009, 02:54 PM
Tau superheavies are fliers rather than "titans," though they are the same relative scale.

So the Manta - and presumably other superheavy fliers in their inventory are their titans.

(Forgive the semi-obvious post, but I didn't see this spelled out explicitly in previous posts.)

Elliott
09-24-2009, 03:44 AM
If you hadn't sad it, Schoon, I was about to.

Like rafe has said, the tau don't want or need superheavy walkers; in no way should their absence be considered a weakness. Slow, heavily armed and armored units do not fit into the tau fighting style, which is predicated on maneuverability, maximized firepower, and rapid redeployment. When the tau need something big dead, they call in air support - the Tigershark and the Manta.

jeffersonian000
09-24-2009, 03:45 AM
I see no reason why a superheavy "Crisis" suit could not be conceived by the Tau fire caste as a high end command suit. Crew of one, all the Tau bells and whistles, probably equivalent to an Eldar Revenant titan with only 2 structure points yet still agile and most likely a skimmer.

In point of fact, in Apocalypse you could just field a Tau titan by using a Revenant datafax and model the beast in a Tau-ish fashion. Case closed.

SJ

Elliott
09-24-2009, 03:57 AM
The tau are stuck in a strange niche: their egos won't let them back slow-and-heavy Imperial style weapon systems, and their technology is nowhere near the "magic" the Eldar possess. Yeah, maybe if the tau could pull a titan off with Eldar style aplomb, they'd use it. But, why would they forgo their tried-and-true skimmer and aircraft mounted weapons systems? Like another poster said, I think they tau would take three Hammerheads over one Baneblade-sized tank.

TSINI
09-24-2009, 10:23 AM
hehe, this is interesting

the TAU have just gained a slightly bigger crisis suit courtesy of forgeworld


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/xv9.htm

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Tau/Battlesuits/xv9g.jpg

not a superheavy, but it shows that this is probably the way they would go

fuzzbuket
09-24-2009, 10:38 AM
Hmm for some odd reason ive always thought that 40k was lackin some super heavy walker/tank like the star wars at-te E.g. wave serpent with legs?:confused:

Sitnam
09-25-2009, 12:38 PM
I pretty much agree with a few posters in that titans dont fit the Tau's style. The Tau prefer using air power and quick raids to win their wars. During Taros they battered the Imperials not by going head to head with them. They picked off tanks with railguns, used Stealthsuits and Pathfinders to launch raids, and just harassed the hell out of the Imperials. When the Imperial offensive involving Titans and Raptor Legion armored columns began, the Tau were forced into a more head on confrontation which they lost. It was only through some fortunate developments in air power did they run the Titans off.

But even though they aren't as good in a head on battle with the Imperium, I dont think they should try to be. The Tau are a numerically MUCH smaller race then humanity. The Imperial Guard grinds its opponents down through firepower and numbers. Cadre's will never match Regiments in the ability to win a meatgrinder battle. So why bother with Titans when they wont even mesh well with the rest of the Fire Caste.

sangrail777
09-25-2009, 02:29 PM
I got a Tau "Titan"
It stands about waist high to my Warhound.Call it Heavy Battle Suit XV888, armed with 3 Railguns, and a burst cannon. It's a walker wih 4 legs (for stability when firing all guns), Also give it a +4 save for shielding since the Tau don't use void shields. (got the idea from the Manta shields) It's got 2 structure points.
Haven't worked out the points cost for this yet. Had tried 500, nut that seems to much. First time I used it a Genestealer shreaded it(long time ago). Course now I've got better rules for super heavies thx to apoc. So hopefully next time it will do much better. O'yeah and the armour is 13 all around.
The model itself i got from a guy on ebay several years ago. He made several of them out of resin with diffrent weapon set ups.
Fluff goes along the lines of an experimental Super Heavy Battlesuit to deal with increasing contact with the Imperiums Super Heavy Tanks.
I'm sure eventually ForgeWorld will come out with something like this on there own.
But for now it is still very funny to show the one I've got off to Heavy tank commanders who think my Tau got nothing on their Baneblades.

fuzzbuket
09-26-2009, 06:05 AM
i agree with the warp shield raid plane argument, But mr. dunns battlesuits look AWSOME and id love to see sangraill's titan thing:D please!

sangrail777
09-26-2009, 06:28 AM
sure i just gotta figure out how to load the pic
still got some painting to do on it, but here it is.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/sangrail777/100_1103.jpg

ThePov
09-26-2009, 09:23 AM
sure i just gotta figure out how to load the pic
still got some painting to do on it, but here it is.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/sangrail777/100_1103.jpg
See, thats precisely what I'm talking about. It's not out of the question, and I'm not talking about a Warlord-sized titan or anything, but like that, a larger scale battlesuit, with multiple crew.

09-26-2009, 10:37 AM
i say one thing: Gundum with big railgun and redone head

ratpack
09-26-2009, 11:44 AM
What was that titan killer thing in Taros book? A-X-10 or something?

sangrail777
09-27-2009, 11:19 AM
I think you mean the AX-1-0 with the twin linked heavy railgun (destroyer)

fuzzbuket
09-28-2009, 11:58 AM
Thankyou sangrail
that is AWSOME:eek:
me like fil duns titans too (he should give them to his office)

fuzzbuket

Dunadan
10-04-2009, 07:19 AM
My dad has an old Japanese Z-knight model I've been trying to use as a Tau Titan:
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/567504
The shield conceals an Ion Cannon looking thing, and there's a missile mounted on his other arm.

Those scratch-built ones were awesome!

Gir
10-05-2009, 07:02 AM
I think the deffinitive Tau superheavy tank/walker will be this when it's complete:

http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8367&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=887ca4d1ec3ab11aacef4f3ebb54ce68

Rapture
10-06-2009, 02:11 PM
I have seen many tau titans but they always seems to be either too far removed from the current tau style or screaming "I wish I played guard so I could have a warhound." Tau are best left without them in my opinion.

TSINI
10-07-2009, 06:25 AM
I think the deffinitive Tau superheavy tank/walker will be this when it's complete:

http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8367&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=887ca4d1ec3ab11aacef4f3ebb54ce68

That is an amazing thread, I don't have a TAU army, but if I had access to one of those kits, I soon would do :)

Prodigalson
10-07-2009, 09:20 AM
The Manta is the Tau titan. On the tabletop it's around 20K points, and in RL it's huge, larger then a Reaver titan.

Also, tau don't have void sheilds, but they have some type, the Manta has a 4+ cover save.

and the Tigershark is a titan killer.

I think the concept of a Knight sized titan would work with the tau. Something fast that could support the troops. However, if not that, I would really like to see a superheavy vehicle. Something with 2 structure that was a skimmer tank. Like the Tempest and Scropion of the Eldar.

sangrail777
10-07-2009, 10:06 AM
So if there was to be an actual Super Heavy battle suit or Titan, or even Knight" size" for the Tau, it would seem most poeple agree it should be a four legged walker with at least twin Railguns. Course the rules for a super heavy railgun are nice enough. That about right? O'yeah and it doesn't have void shields but it does have a 4+ Inv. save from a shield.

Chris
10-09-2009, 12:45 AM
The obvious flier responses have been done, I will add FW hint at a weaponised version of the Orca in their Taros book, a gunship style beast.

sulsirsra
10-09-2009, 12:57 AM
The obvious flier responses have been done, I will add FW hint at a weaponised version of the Orca in their Taros book, a gunship style beast.

I have the same idea with you. Great!
Glad to hear you're using this: I plan to keep it much more aggressively up-to-date than has been the case in the past, but don't hesitate to let me know if you find errors or need clarifications.:)
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