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timff8
05-03-2012, 11:39 PM
Hi all

I'm working some new Empire lists, and trying to figure out a stance on units in general.

Taking a big horde/bus of State Troops (pick your poison; I prefer Spearmen in a Bus, and Halberdiers in a horde) is great, and I personally insist on one at every points level.

In bulking up my front line, should I be constructing more Hordes or Busses, or do tough bricks of units such as Greatswords and Flagellants work as well? I don't want to be playing one horde/bus after another, is my point. Is bookending them with bricks of tougher troops viable, or should I be putting my points entirely into masses of expendable mans?

All the best,

Timff8

Annum
05-04-2012, 04:58 AM
Hey,
Just an idea I've been playing around with lately, depending on what army I'm playing, I'm going for swordsmen bus units, as they are just that little bit tougher to break down than other core units, generally I take 34(5 wide, 7 deep) with a BSB with a defensive item and give the unit the standard of discipline. You then have a unit with ld 9 with re rolls on 3d6 taking lowest 2.....not easy to break so long as the BSB is still around.

On the brick front I've been going with Greatswords mainly for the strength and all important stubborn rule, they are quite expensive but so difficult to play against, throw in a warrior priest and a witch hunter and you have hatred, stubborn with MR2. I've used these tactics a few times now and they work really well, providing a solid centre to your army.

Anyway hope this helps!

Wildeybeast
05-04-2012, 10:07 AM
I really like annum's idea, I run something pretty similar, backed up by two 15 strong detachments. I can't emphasise enough how gret warrior priests are in these sort of units. I like a nice chunky block of 20-30 greatswords alongside them and back it all up with luminark of hysh to give you a ward save and some of the extra combat prowess lore of light gives you. Though the +1 to hit from a celestial hurricanum is pretty useful too.

Chronowraith
05-04-2012, 12:06 PM
In general I've found the hurricanium to be the more useful of the wizard-mobiles. The ward save from the luminark is easily duplicated through magic or prayers.

That being said, I've had success taking two units of spearmen as buses and then their detachments of halberdiers as hordes. I usually run my spearmen in units of 40 and max out the detachments.

As for deployment, that all depends on the rest of your army. If you have some solid units then yes.. you can book end them, run your buses up the middle and try and outflank with your hammer units. If you only have a single solid hammer unit then you can load the center or try a refused flank where you deploy on one side of the table and thus your opponent can't outflank you on one of your flanks. That tactic can create problems for horde armies though... so caveat emptor.

timff8
05-04-2012, 11:10 PM
[To clarify, I am COMPLETELY UNINTERESTED in any comments not related to this issue: are blocks (20-30 in a square formation) of tough troops a viable alternative to hordes of State Troops?]

How many hordes/busses then would you say would suffice before I could bookend them with blocks of Greatswords?

Chronowraith
05-04-2012, 11:31 PM
Again, that depends on the point level of the game. I'd say a minimum of 1 bus per 1000 points though.

As per your main issue, what is your definition of "tough troops"? Greatswords aren't an alternative for state troops because they aren't core. Swordsmen are tough(er) than most state troops and make good buses but they are largely a defensive unit unless you are facing off against T3 opponents.

As for your comment about being uninterested in comments that don't relate to your own issues... welcome to a forum... you start the thread and then people have side discussions. Welcome to the internet.

timff8
05-05-2012, 01:10 AM
Okay then.

Well.... Fantasy isn't 40k. I dont NEED my big blocks O mans to be from the Core section. I just need to spend 25% of my army on Core, and that CAN be blocks O mans, but it could also be spent on knights (IC or regular) or Crossbowmen.
Asuming that I have my 25% or Core covered, I mean, can Greatswords be a subsitute for say, a block of Halberdiers?
Swordsmen are in a tough spot now, I think. Halberdiers are out and out the "offensive" state troop, and spearmen are relegated to being the "bus" state troop. Swordsmen are interesting, because you have to weigh them against Spearman, because RARELY is that WS 4 going to help you be more offensive. Rather, it's an issue of whether or not it's worth it to pay 2 points per model for +1 WS, +1 AS, and a parry save, and lose an extra rank of attacks. The +1 WS is of no use in dealing more damage, but rather stops many other mans from hitting your mans on 3+. I think they CAN be of use in that regard, but in a pinch, the spearmen work just fine, and I have 40 Spearmen, not 40 Swordsmen, so my mind is made up for me.

Well.... let me say I would PREFER if comments refer to the specific question I posted. I posted a question; I did not start and Empire Tactica thread, if you will. I don't need someone to say Warrior Priests are good; we all KNOW they are good. I don't need a debate on the luminarch versus the Hurricanum; the +1 to Hit is a very solid bonus, and the 6+ Ward save is easy to duplicate with other things you will already be taking (Warrior Priests, Lore of Light/Life). The bolt thrower shot is... okay. Cannons do it better. The blast that the Hurricanum does, however, is NOT done all that better by anything we have. We have other blasts, but they are Strength:3. And failing that, you can have a silly side-effect. Plus, the +1 PD is a free prayer or spell. Wee!

Chronowraith
05-05-2012, 07:54 AM
I'd still say that greatswords are not a viable alternative to state troops. They cost considerably more points and they die just as readily as the other state troops. Technically, swordsmen are more survivable than greatswords and that is why you want the state troops... warm bodies (well, until they die).

Skeith154
05-05-2012, 09:55 AM
dude you more or less did start an empire tactics thread. it's only natural they would talk about other empire units. so tone down the attitude cause it's not gonna do much but incite people. now. that aside.. what about units of flagellents? i hear they are actually stronger then greatswords (covered in another thread) i don't suppose having a bunch of unbreakable troops who basically buff themselves, would be any any interest to you in a large block or two.

timff8
05-05-2012, 02:15 PM
@Chronowraith:
Swordsmen have the advantage of a parry save, but only against thr front facing, and often you are still going to scrape a 6+ save out of the Greatswords. The main reason I think they work is because they have Stubborn on their own, without the need to out-rank the enemy, and because their detachments can be really annoying little speed-bumps.

@Skeith:
I started a thread with a particular topic, though. It doesn't help me to hear things that aren't pertaining to that topic. There are a jillion OTHER empire threads that are not about the merits of big blocks of beefy guys as an alternative to hordes and busses. They can post there.
I don't particularly like flagellants. I love the concept, but... eh.... Greatswords are suvivable(er), and have a great benefit to pass out to their detachments. Flagellants can't take detachments, can lose their Frenzy now, and require a heaping helping of them to be much useful.

Wildeybeast
05-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Forgive me for trying to be helpful. Since you are a new member of the forum and did not specify what your previous level of experience playing with Empire is, I figured that some general tips might be helpful. Obviously my bad. As a general piece of advice though, if you are looking for help and advice from people on the forum, being churlish when people offer it is a good way not to get any advice in the future. If the topic isn't getting you the help you need, politely trying to refocus it is usually a btter way to win friends and influence people, rather than telling them you are completely uninterested in what they have to say.

As to your specific point, I'm not sure why you have bothered posting it when you clearly have very definite ideas about what you want to do. Of course blocks of greatswords are a viable alternative. Yes you get less attacks and hit last, but you get better armour save and do more damage. They are particularly useful against monstrous inf/cav. It is a pretty straight forward trade-off and since neither is game winning or breaking, you can crunch the mathammer, or go for which ever suits your tactics/playstyle/army fluff. If you want to play greatswords rather than state troops, do it, they aren't going cost you the game by any means.

timff8
05-05-2012, 11:49 PM
Thanks very much Wildey, I will try to give more concessions in the future.

I'm not unsure that I want to use a block of greatswords, but I am using this forum as a failsafe against doing something entirely boneheaded. As unlikely as it is, I wanted to be sure that buying $41 more in miniatures wasn't a stupid decision.

Wildeybeast
05-06-2012, 08:57 AM
Fair enough. I would feel confident in saying that using a block of greatswords rather than a horde of state troopers is fine providing they aren't your only/main infantry unit. If you are planning to fill your core allocation with say knights, I'd consider going for the greater numbers state troopers will offer, otherwise you run the risk of fielding a rather elite army and being heavily outnumbered by a number of armies. Not a boneheaded move exactly, but something you should consider very carefully. Greatswords will hold their own against anything in a large enough unit, but if they are outnumbered they will get worn down through sheer attrition.

timff8
05-07-2012, 05:05 PM
Alright then, thanks very much. I feel my question has been answered. :)

BTW, what exaclty does you quote/signature mean? It seems to say, if you'll forigve me, that free speech is a substitue for common sense. Is that at all accurate? It confuses me.

Wildeybeast
05-08-2012, 01:07 PM
Well, I won't claim to be anything resembling an expert on Kierkegaard, but as I understand it the quote basically means that people are so keen to have their opinions heard that they fail to think about what they are actually saying. Something that seemed very appropriate to have as a signature on an interent forum! :D

Thornblood
05-09-2012, 12:42 PM
So I've been playing a few games with Empire and I don't really see the Greatswords as tougher than the state troops. Defensively, Swordsmen do a better job man for man. However they confer the stubborn rule to there detachments, whoch is the bog pull for me, not the actual potential of the Greatswords, but the ability to create a pretty tough speedbump than can hold its ground whilst the majority of your points and hitting power overpowers the other half of your opponents army.

In Summary Greatswords dont win, but they can make a chunk of your army immovable.

If its offence you want though, Flagellants, Demigryphs and units of Spearmen of more than fifty are my recommendation.