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Akaiyou
05-23-2012, 07:47 AM
SHOWCASING

Theme:
Harbingers of Despair are my main focus here building a list around maximizing their usefulness. So I'm mostly focused on milking veil of darkness.

List Performance:
1 Wins, 0 Draws, 1 Losses

Overall Theme Performance:
3 Wins, 1 Draws, 3 Losses


2000 Pts - Necrons Roster - Harbingers of Despair

HQ:
. . 1 Overlord, 200 pts (Warscythe; Mindshackle Scarabs; Sempiternal Weave; Tesseract Labyrinth; Resurrection Orb; Upgrade to Phaeron)

. . 1 Overlord, 200 pts (Warscythe; Mindshackle Scarabs; Sempiternal Weave; Tesseract Labyrinth; Resurrection Orb; Upgrade to Phaeron)

. . 1 Royal Court, 120 pts
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair (Veil of Darkness)
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair

. . 1 Royal Court, 120 pts
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair (Veil of Darkness)
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair

Elite:
. . 5 Deathmarks, 95 pts

Troops:
. . 20 Warriors, 375 pts
. . . . 1 Ghost Ark

. . 20 Warriors, 260 pts

Fast Attack:
. . 3 Destroyers, 180 pts (Heavy Gauss Cannon x3)
. . 3 Destroyers, 180 pts (Heavy Gauss Cannon x3)

Heavy Support:
. . 1 Annihilation Barge, 90 pts
. . 1 Annihilation Barge, 90 pts
. . 1 Annihilation Barge, 90 pts

Total Roster Cost: 2000


Will post up batlte results with pictures when possible as I take this theme out to play.

Tynskel
05-23-2012, 10:34 AM
a little bit on the spammy side, considering the codex offers so many choices. I understand that you are attempting a 'despair' list. There are units in the Hv Support and Fast Attack that contribute to 'dispair', too.

Akaiyou
05-23-2012, 07:17 PM
like wat?

alshrive
05-24-2012, 05:14 AM
i don't understand the inclusion of the Ghost Ark in this army as it cannot be used transport and seems like a very expensive boost for a unit

Tzeentch's Dark Agent
05-24-2012, 05:16 AM
i don't understand the inclusion of the Ghost Ark in this army as it cannot be used transport and seems like a very expensive boost for a unit

Good point, maximum capacity 10.
You could buy another Deathmark unit instead.

Nachodragon
05-24-2012, 09:43 AM
I assume in this list and your 1500 point list you are using the ark to bring back some warriors if they have been downed?

That seems like a neat idea but for 115 points, I am not sure that this couldn't be put to better use. Like more deathmarks. They are the perfect unit to use with the despair cryptek. Also, WHY!?! would you use the labyrinth? That seems like another waste of points. The one time it might be neat you could have added those points to something that would actually matter the whole game. Like, switching a cryptek or two to Destruction and get a solar pulse or two. This would definitely help to get your guys where you need the first turn or two. Also, the ap2 shots would help. Granted you have the heavy destroyers, but tell me they won't be shot and killed first two turns. Especially since they pose the biggest threat to a lot of things.

Vashtek
05-24-2012, 10:21 AM
I like the idea of big necron warrior squads but they cost a huge amount of points: 260 for necron warriors, plus 200 for the lord just so that you can fire 20 times with boltguns. They will get swept in combat against any kind of decent cc unit and are very vulnerable to AP4 stff like heavy bolters and autocannons. You are even paying 115 points on a ghost ark to support the unit. That's 575 points to fire 25 boltguns!

A 10 strong immortal tesla unit costs 170 points and the firepower is not dramatically worse against infantry. What about gauss I hear you cry? I would respond that using a 460 point unit to get a (not very good) chance of glancing a 40-75 point transport vehicle is not a way to win games.

What about rapid fire at 12" range! The answer to this is that you won't ever get to fire as you move at the same speed as everything else, and slower than the cc stuff that likes to kill you, so it is unlikely you will ever get to use the 12" range bracket against anybody other than poor opponents.

Deepstriking them is also incredibly risky due their huge footprint. Immortals are much better, and much cheaper. You can then spend the points saved on the difference between immortals and warriors and overlords to buy lords in cc barges which are excellent.

Akaiyou
05-24-2012, 12:15 PM
I assume in this list and your 1500 point list you are using the ark to bring back some warriors if they have been downed?

That seems like a neat idea but for 115 points, I am not sure that this couldn't be put to better use. Like more deathmarks. They are the perfect unit to use with the despair cryptek. Also, WHY!?! would you use the labyrinth? That seems like another waste of points. The one time it might be neat you could have added those points to something that would actually matter the whole game. Like, switching a cryptek or two to Destruction and get a solar pulse or two. This would definitely help to get your guys where you need the first turn or two. Also, the ap2 shots would help. Granted you have the heavy destroyers, but tell me they won't be shot and killed first two turns. Especially since they pose the biggest threat to a lot of things.

- Yes the arks are there for 2 purposes, repair and objective contesting. They tend to be quite sturdy and most likely wont be seen as a threat unless we are playing kill points and even then the opponent will want the other stuff dead way before the arks. With this idea in mind if my unit does fall below 11 i can port over to where that ark is and embark last minute. I agree it's expensive for the idea but this is a themed army not aiming to be competitive but rather to milk the despairteks as much as i can

- I had 40 pts to spare and i like redundancy so i put a labyrinth on both overlords since there was nothing else to spend it on equally. lol it's the very last thing i throw in when such a thing happens. Also i'm avoiding using other crypteks for this 'theme'

- I assume heavy destroyers and ABs will be the main targets early on. As i intend to take out the heavy vehicles with the HDs and transports with ABs while porting about either damaging back field/other vehicles with my warriors or shooting at the passengers.


I like the idea of big necron warrior squads but they cost a huge amount of points: 260 for necron warriors, plus 200 for the lord just so that you can fire 20 times with boltguns. They will get swept in combat against any kind of decent cc unit and are very vulnerable to AP4 stff like heavy bolters and autocannons. You are even paying 115 points on a ghost ark to support the unit. That's 575 points to fire 25 boltguns!

A 10 strong immortal tesla unit costs 170 points and the firepower is not dramatically worse against infantry. What about gauss I hear you cry? I would respond that using a 460 point unit to get a (not very good) chance of glancing a 40-75 point transport vehicle is not a way to win games.

What about rapid fire at 12" range! The answer to this is that you won't ever get to fire as you move at the same speed as everything else, and slower than the cc stuff that likes to kill you, so it is unlikely you will ever get to use the 12" range bracket against anybody other than poor opponents.

Deepstriking them is also incredibly risky due their huge footprint. Immortals are much better, and much cheaper. You can then spend the points saved on the difference between immortals and warriors and overlords to buy lords in cc barges which are excellent.

1. This is a themed army for the purposes of the theme I didn't concern myself too much with the points, the concept was 'whats the nastiest thing i can use a despair tek for' sure deathmarks (i only own 5) are great with them but a small unit size just wont do and that would only work against 1 target.

Immortals as you say are also nice better save stronger guns but it boils down to basically a space marine squad in terms of survivability...they are not at all hard to get rid of. Any decent large blast will decimate the entire unit before they get a chance of reanimation and once i lose most o fthem i wont be able to "heal" up

Thus I decided that warriors are the best option allowing me to take larger units higher survivability in numbers, and the ability to repair when near an ark which i assume i will be using quite often.

2. Yeah i'm paying 115 pts for a medic. lol see my reply above in regards to what i intend to use the arks for.

3. Deep striking is indeed risky due to the foot print but this does not matter when you have a phaeron because then you can stay a safe distance from enemy units and board edges in which case you wont mishap lets u try to drop onto impassible terrain which would be silly. In any case you'll have your full range of fire power and even if u deep strike into terrain (which is a great idea for cover saves) you get 1/2 chance of recovering any losses with the res orb and reanimation rules.

Akaiyou
05-24-2012, 12:19 PM
For the record i do agree with some of the stuff you guys are saying but i'm showcasing the army list not looking for edits. And i will post up results (with pics when possible) of my battles with it.

I'm willingly not aiming for the most competitive builds and specifically trying to milk the harbinger of despair for this theme. Which I think seems to be what you guys can't wrap your heads around. So here is a question for you guys

If you yourself were tasked with building an army solely focused on getting the most mileage out of harbingers of despair how would you build it?

Nachodragon
05-24-2012, 12:33 PM
The best device for the despair Crypteks is to pair them with Deathmarks. Two units of 5 at least. Putting 2 crypteks with the deathmarks will give you 2 ap1 templates that wound on 2+ (for two units, remember either of the two deathmark units will wound either marked unit on a 2+).

I have also added trazyn to a big group of 10 marks and 2 crypteks giving them relentless and having a scoring unit that can take something later in game.

I have played with a large group of warriors with the crypteks and lost the whole unit once... that sucked. As you need to play somewhat aggressively with DSing the unit to get the most advantage it is better to have a smaller unit. Cause if you DS farther back to minimize the mishaps you will have to walk anyway and the negates the purpose. Also, you never want to get a 20+ man unit of warriors close to any unit that can get in assault. I have done that too many times and only once have I not been run down or run off the board.

Chumbalaya
05-24-2012, 04:40 PM
I'd say the best use of despair Crypteks would be teleporting immortals (durable, cheaper, smaller footprint) to snag objectives or pop around and shoot and Arks loaded with more despairteks so they can shoot out from anywhere on the big open-topped chassis. Nightmare Shrouds are also handy as a poor man's tank shock.

Beyond that, barge Overlords are always great. And to fit your fear theme as well as provide some needed anti-tank, add stalkers, scarabs and mindshackles to go for the whole arachnaphobia angle.

Akaiyou
05-24-2012, 07:45 PM
10 immortals die way easier than 20 warriors against any opponent.

Nachodragon
05-24-2012, 08:24 PM
Not sure what sort of steroids you are feeding your warriors.. but this is not true.

Also, what circumstances are we talking about? Shooting, Assault?

Kawauso
05-24-2012, 09:39 PM
I like using the Harbingers of Despair with Veil of Darkness to teleport Immortals, as well. Super useful with Tesla Carbines for keeping enemies at that ideal 24" range, and late-game for pouncing on an objective (and hopefully getting close enough for the Harbinger to use his Abyssal Staff on something).

Out of curiosity how are you finding the 3x Heavy Destroyer squads? I've been pondering that myself but can't help thinking they need some regular Destroyers there to take wounds and bulk up the squad a little...does get expensive, though.

Akaiyou
05-25-2012, 10:27 AM
Not sure what sort of steroids you are feeding your warriors.. but this is not true.

Also, what circumstances are we talking about? Shooting, Assault?

What are you talking about? Let's see

vs Small Arms fire (AP 5/6)

10 Immortals = 30 wounds inflicted to kill unit
20 Warriors = 40 wounds inflicted to kill unit

Clearly vs small arms fire the warriors last longer. Small arms fire is by far the most common in 40k

vs Mid range weaponry (AP4)

10 Immortals = 30 wounds inflicted to kill unit
20 Warriors = 20 wounds inflicted to kill unit (in the open field), 40 wounds inflicted to kill unit (in cover)

Mid range weaponry is very rare, heavy bolters/auto cannons/heavy flamers are the most common form of this and rarely seen in most armies and for good reason...AP4 just isn't that great. And considering that this if 5th edition most things end up getting a 4+ cover save anyway defeating the purpose. Survivability wise they are pretty much tied as the warriosr will most likely benefit from cover saves

vs. armor destroying weaponry (AP3/AP2)

10 Immortals = 10 wounds to kill unit in open field/20 wounds to kill them in cover
20 Warriors = 20 wounds to kill in open field/40 wounds to kill unit in cover

Funnily enough this type of weaponry is the next most common, as MEQ is so common that most folk always bring some sort of armor destroying weaponry. Most deadly of these is of course Battlecannon type blasts, S8 AP3 is pretty common and just 1 blast can decimate an entire unit of immortals, but it takes more than just 1 to wipe out a unit of 20 warriors.


So clearly vs. Shooting = 20 Warriors are ALWAYS more survivable than 10 Immortals. By weight of numbers alone.


The same can be siad about them in assault, as they can return more damage decreasing their 'loss' marging substancially. But then again no one wants to actually get their immortals/warriors in CC so that should be avoided to begin with.


I like using the Harbingers of Despair with Veil of Darkness to teleport Immortals, as well. Super useful with Tesla Carbines for keeping enemies at that ideal 24" range, and late-game for pouncing on an objective (and hopefully getting close enough for the Harbinger to use his Abyssal Staff on something).

Out of curiosity how are you finding the 3x Heavy Destroyer squads? I've been pondering that myself but can't help thinking they need some regular Destroyers there to take wounds and bulk up the squad a little...does get expensive, though.

The heavy destroyers are great i use them in squads of 3 or 2. They work very well specially if you aim for side shots forcing the opponent to worry bout positioining.

Akaiyou
05-26-2012, 08:13 AM
Vs Grey Knights

Enemy List Summary
HQ: Grand Master Mordrek + 4 Ghost Knights
Elites: 10 Paladins
Troops: 2 Full Size Strike Squads + 1 Rhino
Heavy Support: Psyrifleman

Mission: Capture & Control
Deployment: Spearhead
1st Turn: Necrons

http://s13.postimage.org/ljlcl4asz/Manhattan_20120525_00634.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/ljlcl4asz/)
http://s13.postimage.org/6owr6y183/Manhattan_20120525_00635.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/6owr6y183/)

He let me go first in order to use Mordrek's 1st turn deep strike and surprise me. So I turned the tables by reserving my entire army. He used his deep strike to land near home objective.

http://s13.postimage.org/8hznv9mer/Manhattan_20120525_00636.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/8hznv9mer/)
http://s13.postimage.org/bq8qm1y2b/Manhattan_20120525_00640.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/bq8qm1y2b/)

Turn 2 most of my army arrived from reserve on a very good reserve roll. Letting me pit 3 ABs, a full size squad of warriors with 2 abyssal staff flamers, and the deathmark squad with another 2 abyssal staff flamers against Mordrek and his squad. And killed him off. On his turn 2 his paladins and 1 full strike squad arrived from reserve near his servo skulls and began shooting at me.

Akaiyou
05-26-2012, 08:14 AM
http://s13.postimage.org/b1zw33zcj/Manhattan_20120525_00641.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/b1zw33zcj/)
http://s13.postimage.org/65w9bez77/Manhattan_20120525_00642.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/65w9bez77/)
http://s13.postimage.org/rgttfohbn/Manhattan_20120525_00648.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/rgttfohbn/)

For the next couple turns we began shooting at each other and I used my veil of darkness several times to reposition my army disabling the psyrifleman and claiming his home objective with ease thanks to my high mobility and high volume of gauss fire.

Akaiyou
05-26-2012, 08:14 AM
http://s13.postimage.org/izub4rcmr/Manhattan_20120525_00651.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/izub4rcmr/)
http://s13.postimage.org/5wyolhmer/Manhattan_20120525_00654.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/5wyolhmer/)
http://s13.postimage.org/6nrer9os3/Manhattan_20120525_00658.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/6nrer9os3/)

After taking control of his objective I teleported one of my units back to my own objective in order to hold both or if worst came to worst I could contest one and capture the other. We kept shooting at each other I took out most of the strike squads killed the psyrifleman and defended my objective.

Game ended turn 7 with his paladins just making it through to my home objective but as I had units there already they contested it and I won the game as I was controlling his.


He praised my ability to teleport all over the table and shoot at his weak points as one of the key factors in the Necron win.

However I found it quite annoying to fight the paladins which i ignored through out most of the game and aimed for the weaker strike squads and stuff i could actually kill so after much consideration I reworked my 2,000 pts list as follows:

2000 Pts - Necrons Roster - Harbingers of Despair

HQ:
. . 1 Overlord, 150 pts (Warscythe; Resurrection Orb; Upgrade to Phaeron)

. . 1 Overlord, 150 pts (Warscythe; Resurrection Orb; Upgrade to Phaeron)

. . 1 Royal Court, 90 pts
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair (Veil of Darkness)
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair

. . 1 Royal Court, 90 pts
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair (Veil of Darkness)
. . . . 1 Harbinger of Despair

Elite:
. . 5 Deathmarks, 95 pts

Troops:
. . 20 Warriors, 375 pts
. . . . 1 Ghost Ark

. . 20 Warriors, 260 pts

Fast Attack:
. . 5 Destroyers, 260 pts (Gauss Cannon x2; Heavy Gauss Cannon x3)
. . 5 Destroyers, 260 pts (Gauss Cannon x2; Heavy Gauss Cannon x3)

Heavy Support:
. . 1 Annihilation Barge, 90 pts
. . 1 Annihilation Barge, 90 pts
. . 1 Annihilation Barge, 90 pts

Total Roster Cost: 2000

I needed better fire power vs marines more destroyers will do just that while allowing the heavy destroyers a better chance to stay ingame to deal with terminators/paladins in the future