Grey Knights 1500

[Learn2Eel]

Hey guys, I was hoping I could get some advice on a new Grey Knights army I was wanting to start.
I've been playing WH40K for a while but have only very recently taken interest in the Grey Knights - I've always thought they were too cheesy an army.

In any case, this list was designed with friendly games in mind at a local store; it isn't intended to be a tournament-list. However, I still want to run a semi-competitive one that isn't reliant on cheesy tactics to win and can at least face off against anyone looking for a pick-up game.

Here it is;
1500

HQ
Librarian w/ Halberd, the Shrouding, Might of Titan - 165
Librarian w/ Halberd, the Shrouding, Might of Titan - 165

Troops
Grey Knight Terminators (5) w/ (1) Daemon Hammer, (4) Halberds, Psycannon, Psybolt - 245
Grey Knight Terminators (5) w/ (1) Daemon Hammer, (4) Halberds, Psycannon, Psybolt - 245

Fast Attack
Stormraven Gunship w/ TL multi-melta - 205
Stormraven Gunship w/ TL multi-melta - 205

Heavy Support
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL autocannon, Psybolt - 135
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL autocannon, Psybolt - 135

The main theme behind this list is board control and rapid assault; my entire army is contained within two Stormravens, both of which will always start the game reserved and turbo-boost on. This army obviously has a high risk element to it; if one Stormraven comes on first turn and the other doesn't for at least two turns, my one Stormraven will be the target of some serious firepower. I can see why a Grand Master would work for this list as he would provide that reserve roll bonus and Grand Mastery so that I can potentially drop my Dreadnoughts off on my home objectives after making them scoring. After all, the Shrouding only really helsp whilst I'm turbo-boosting or if I need to jump my terminators into cover; stealth won't help me get cover for a vehicle that large. This list is suppossed to be challenging and yet rewarding at the same time; I rely on my durability, target priority and positioning heavily, a fun alternative to my Thousand Sons and Dark Eldar.

My own criticism draws heavily around the psybolt ammunition on the terminators; I think it isn't as useful for the style of list I am going for as say a brotherhood banner, but I can't think of anything worth shedding points for. I've considered dropping one Librarian for a Grand Master to help with the reserve rolls; the idea would then be to keep both Stormravens next to each other when they turbo boost, which I feel is likely what I would normally do. I like the insurance of the Librarian though as, even with Psychic Communion there is always a chance the Grand Master's Stormraven can turbo-boost down without Stealth. Also, the Librarian's provide Might of Titan to my terminators so as to not only get significant strength bonuses but also becomes an absolute monster for walkers and tanks - I6 S7 (potentially) with 2 attacks each base and 2D6 armour penetration! I was considering dropping psybolt and maybe the halberds on the Librarians so as to fit in hurricane bolters on my Stormravens which would make them even more devastating against infantry and heavy infantry. An interesting point that was made to me was to exchange one of the autocannons on each dreadnought for an assault cannon. Considering my store only has small boards, I think it would be more useful considering they get dropped off after moving flat-out onto the board from reserve. Having what is essentially a psycannon would probably help more against vehicles such as Land Raiders and Monoliths too.

Any criticism and thoughts are appreciated. Cheers.

[Learn2Eel]

Wow, I didn't realize when I wrote this list just how dirty it was.....at least as far as 5th Edition went. It's even dirtier in 6th Edition :o

In any case, I've changed it around to incorporate elements that I want to run, ones that are definitely still cheesy but not simply buying models to fit a WAAC list. Here's my new 1500 list.

HQ

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ rad grenades, psychotroke grenades, power armour - 63
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ rad grenades, psychotroke grenades, power armour - 63

Troops

Terminators (5) w/ 4 halberds, 1 daemon hammer, psycannon - 225
Terminators (5) w/ 4 halberds, 1 daemon hammer, psycannon - 225

Fast Attack

Stormraven Gunship w/ hurricane bolters, psybolt ammunition, twin-linked multi-melta - 255
Stormraven Gunship w/ hurricane bolters, psybolt ammunition, twin-linked multi-melta - 255

Heavy Support

Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205

I love the Coteaz model, as well as the Inquisitor model with the Inferno Pistol. Dreadknights are too cool to ignore.
The Inquisitors are there to buff my hard-hitting Terminators, whilst the Dreadknights are foils for the rest of my army - they alone start on the board, and I use them to draw opposition fire whilst my other elements zoom in for the kill. The strategy revolves around using the board and terrain to my advantage; this is one of few armies where I would feasibly like to deploy second. It allows me to position my Dreadknights to either hide from what can actually harm them, or deploy opposite what would either threaten my Stormravens or simply be big targets for them to destroy. There's only so many long-ranged weapons that ignore its armour saves in any given army, especially in a local store sense.
Also, due to the new rules, given that local gaming boards are typically 4x4, it is quite possible to get first turn charges off with these guys; both sides deploy 12" on, opponent moves unit up 6". Dreadknight moves up 12", and with the 2D6 charging distance rolls, if a unit is close to my Dreadknight it has a decent chance of making it into combat.

If I am up against horde armies, I'd consider putting Incinerators on my Dreadknights and dropping psybolt on the Stormravens.

[gendoikari87]

Both inquisitors will have to start out on their own, on the board so they're going to be shot to pieces.

[Learn2Eel]

Both inquisitors will have to start out on their own, on the board so they're going to be shot to pieces.

Why is that? Inquisitors are independent characters, they can join the Terminator unit in the Stormraven, unless I am missing something?

The Stormraven has a transport capacity of 12 models; terminators take up two spaces.
5 Terminators = 10 spaces taken up.
I can then fit the Inquisitor in.

Or did you mean the Dreadknights?

[gendoikari87]

Why is that? Inquisitors are independent characters, they can join the Terminator unit in the Stormraven, unless I am missing something?

The Stormraven has a transport capacity of 12 models; terminators take up two spaces.
5 Terminators = 10 spaces taken up.
I can then fit the Inquisitor in.

Or did you mean the Dreadknights?

only 50% of your army can start in reserve and flyers have to start in reserve.

[Bean]

Yeah, it's an amusing list, but I think you'll run into some crippling problems.

First, as Gendo says, you can only start half (rounded up) of your units (not counting those which have to start in reserve) in reserve. Since the Storm Ravens are flyers, they to start in reserve, which leaves you able to start them and three other units in reserve.

That means that your deployment is routinely going to look like double DKs, Terminators, Inquisitor.

Moreover, you really don't have enough troops. Five of six, if I recall correctly, of the missions are objective missions. You are generally going to need more than two scoring units--and remember, they can't score from within the Ravens.

Finally, DKs are pretty decent, but I wouldn't take two. They're just not that good. And, unless your opponents are just idiots, I wouldn't expect them to set up many first turn charges for you. Second turn, sure. First turn...that's relying on way more cooperation from your opponent than you ever should.

I would try a more balanced approach. One storm raven, one inquisitor with one terminator unit, all in reserve. One dreadknight on the table along with a couple of a couple of foot strike squads and an Interceptor squad.

I think that'd be a much stronger list.

[Learn2Eel]

Ah I see. I didn't read that rule too clearly; I assumed that either the Independent Characters joining the Terminators or the units being in the Stormravens would make it legal....hmmm.
I definitely have to change the list then.

I agree, it is lacking in troops choices; an idea commonly floated around is to have at least 1 troops choice per 500 points, dependent of course on the style of list. The idea was board-control and relying on the durability of my Terminators, as well as selecting my engagements. But if there is a multitude of objectives, I am kind of in a pickle; I would have to rely on my Terminators and Dreadknights surviving; the latter being most crippling because I am using them to soak up fire.

As far as the Dreadknights go, I find online that people tend to take a pair; unit redundancy, target priority, etc. You'd be surprised about the first-turn charges thing. I'm not relying on it all, all I meant was that the possibility is there, but on a 42" board it is quite feasible. Mind you though, as you say, anyone with a brain knows not to run near a Dreadknight unless you are kitted out to deal with it (TH/SS Termies, tarpits, etc).

I ran a footslogging list with Interceptors and Purgation Squads, backed by Terminators the other day with someone else's army, and I must say it was a welcome change to running a mech list. That and, given the nature of small boards, Grey Knights relatively shorter range weaponry isn't really affected that much.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll retool my list now.

[bforber]

2 multi-meltas aren't reliable enough to deal with a zooming flyer, (neither are two psycannons.) Consider finding the points for a typhoon missile rack or lascannon if you're looking to board control from a distance instead of headon colliding with things. A necron scythe list would look at this and say "lol".

As mentioned, you're short on bodies, and typically you don't need both grenades to win an assault, especially now with 2+ being as powerful as it is against power weapons.

Surprisingly, I think, if you're going with a low model count list, (which can work under the right cirumstances,) you have too many easy VPs for your opponent.

I'd suggest something like-

Grand master, nades(room for both if you really want them, melta bomb 205-220

10x terminators 2 psycannons, 2 hammers, 3 swords, (to save against power axes,) 3 halberds 450

Terminators x5, 1 hammer, 3 halberds, 1 sword/psy 225

Stormraven w/ TLLC and assault cannon 205? I think. Doing math off the top of my head. Or you could drop the nades off the GM and get psybolt here, which I would recommend as you'll be double casting hammerhand and wounding everything on 2+ anyway.

Dreadknight w/ teleporter 205
Dreadknight w/ teleporter 205

2 less VP, a whole mess of options with grand strategy and a brick to bunker down on an objective, (or to combat squad if the need so arises.) You still have your assaulty unit in a stormraven, but now you're capable of deploying the number of units you need while being able to compensate for lack of scoring units, (or you can scout your dreadknights up for t1 assaults if your opponent is dumb,) in a VP game.

Just my idea, though.

[Bean]

I'm still not a big fan of double DK, though least with a GM, there's a good chance they'll both be scoring, and that's handy.

Also, I wouldn't put a sword on a psycannon terminator. The only thing that swords are good for is sucking up dangerous close combat hits, but they're a far cry from reliable on that front. You don't want to endanger your psycannon. He should have a halberd or hammer (probably hammer).

The Justicar is a decent choice for the sword, since he can make and accept challenges, or you might shell out for warding staff on him, so he's really good at challenges. It's a bit pricy, though.

[Learn2Eel]

Thanks guys.

@bforber, Stormraven's can have the TLMM and TLLC, both for free - the former switches out a Heavy Bolter, the latter switches out the Assault Cannon. My local store gamers usually tell me to stick with the Assault Cannon for flexibility, but as you say, it leaves me shorter on the anti-tank front than if I had both the TLLC and the TLMM (although that's debatable, especially with psybolt added to make the TLAC a TLPC.
Yeah, doing Math-Hammer showed me that one of those units can make mince meat out of almost anything that doesn't have a 2+ armour save, which really isn't necessary. Agreed on the VP front.
The only potential issue is that I have already assembled a Terminator box; 4 halberds, 1 daemon hammer, a psycannon on a halberd, and the Justicar has a halberd.

Does double-casting Hammerhand still work? In 5th Edition it was legal but some people I've spoken to think it isn't. If it is legal, that makes my day easier.

@Bean I see what you mean about the double Dreadknight thing, I love the model but frankly a Psyflemen dread can do so much more my anti-tank purposes.

[Learn2Eel]

1500
HQ
Grand Master w/ meltabombs - 180

Troops
Terminators (10) w/ 2 psycannons, 2 hammers, 6 halberds - 450
Terminators (5) w/ 1 hammer, 4 halberds, psycannon - 225

Fast Attack
Stormraven Gunship w/ TLMM and TLLC - 205

Heavy Support
Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205

This is what I came up with, and it has 30 points spare. As you say, the grenades shouldn't be necessary (they are amazing though), and it leaves me more flexibility, especially with Grand Strategy.
Should I try to fit Hurricane Bolters on the Stormraven or fit in upgrades elsewhere?

Also, the reason for so many halberds was the way I assembled my only squad so far. Should I change it around to include more swords and warding staves? (I have 4 halberds and 1 daemon hammer and a psycannon so far) That would definitely make the unit more durable, especially against models that I would go first against anyway (power fists, power axes, etc).

If you guys think it is necessary as well, I am happy to completely change the list around to something entirely different. I've only got a Terminator squad, a Dreadnought (though without the 2x AC, I can get those at a later point) and Coteaz (to serve as an Inquisitor model) so far.

I actually had a thought, the rulebook says that rounding up is the number of units that can start in reserve, right? So, for example, if I still wanted to do dual Stormravens and dual Dreadknights, would it be possible if I had a single HQ choice instead of 2? I'm pretty sure for working out how many units can start in reserve, you round up if it is an odd number (after removing units that must start in reserve of course).
For example, 1 GM, 2 Terminator units start in reserve, 2 Dreadknights don't? Just a thought if it would then make that list legal and thus viable (if it's not, don't worry :))
Thanks again guys, I appreciate the help :D

[Learn2Eel]

I did have a look at the rulebook, and it works out that you do round up your army for the purposes of putting half in reserve. So if I had two Terminators units and a Grand Master in reserve, with the two Dreadknights starting on the board, that would then be a legal list and still incorporate the dual Stormravens.

If that was the case, I could do this;

HQ
Grand Master w/ meltabombs, empyrean brain mines (I had 10 points spare) - 190

Troops
Terminators (5) w/ 1 hammer, 2 halberds, 2 swords, psycannon - 225
Terminators (5) w/ 1 hammer, 2 halberds, 2 swords, psycannon - 225

Fast Attack
Stormraven Gunship w/ TL multi-melta, TL Assault Cannon, psybolt - 225
Stormraven Gunship w/ TL multi-melta, TL Assault Cannon, psybolt - 225

Heavy Support
Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205

With the Grand Master to make the Dreadknights scoring or whatever else would suit my cause, it's still not as good for objectives missions as what you guys said but it is better than what I had before. I included the warding staves on the Justicar and swords on normals so that I can at least attempt to soak up those power first/power axe/MC attacks, and my Justicar is frightfully good in a challenge. The Stormravens have the MM and LC loadout so that they are dedicated anti-tank.

I still see issues with this list, i.e. the lonely Dreadknights, the lack of scoring units (helped at least by Grand Strategy), the Terminators still aren't terribly durable, etc.
It's just another idea to throw around I guess. On average I should have four scoring units, the bare minimum I will have is three.

Looking back on it now, I think the TLAC would work better than the TLLC, especially if I combine it with Psybolt. I was curious, would it be worth dropping the warding staves on the Justicars so I can give psybolt to the Stormravens so they effectively have Psycannons? I've edited the list again so if you are confused as to what I am referring to, I had warding staves on the Justicars and Lascannons on the Stormravens.

I actually compared the two lists in terms of total shots in a player turn (assuming no dead models, all models get to fire, etc);
List 1
BS6 - 2 Storm Bolter Shots
BS4 - 24 Storm Bolter Shots
BS4 - 12 Psycannon Shots
BS4 - 1 Multi-Melta Shot
BS4 - 1 Lascannon Shot

List 2
BS6 - 2 Storm Bolter Shots
BS4 - 16 Storm Bolter Shots
BS4 - 16 Psycannon Shots
BS4 - 2 Multi-Melta Shots

I think List 2 actually deals better with tanks and medium/heavy infantry, but it is worse at dealing with light infantry, and obviously there are less models.
It is all a matter of circumstance though; List 2 is much more mobile, and is essentially an all-out assault army. List 1 is less mobile but has elements of both holding and seizing ground. List 1 is more flexible, but List 2 benefits from being more focussed.

[Learn2Eel]

This is the list I've come up with;

HQ
Grand Master w/ rad grenades - 190

Troops
Terminators (5) w/ 1 hammer, 2 halberds, 2 swords, psycannon - 225
Terminators (5) w/ 1 hammer, 2 halberds, 2 swords, psycannon - 225

Fast Attack
Stormraven Gunship w/ TL multi-melta, TL Assault Cannon, psybolt - 225
Stormraven Gunship w/ TL multi-melta, TL Assault Cannon, psybolt - 225

Heavy Support
Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205

I am pretty happy with it and it is legal (half army rounding up so 3/5 = legal) - again though, I'm quite open to suggestion and I can see there would be many ways to change this. I wanted to do a legal dual Dreadknight/Stormraven list with a Terminator core but I'm not fussed.

I was curious though, if I was to expand my army for 2000 points and still keep this kind of core, what would be the best way to go? Obviously a few more troops choices, and in general more bodies will be necessary at 2000. Someone mentioned to me a mini Draigo-wing to march up the board (one Pally unit, Draigo) to support the Dreadknights but at 2000 points sheer weight of fire will render those 2+ saves null and void. I was thinking more along the lines of a few strike squads in rhinos, maybe a purgation squad, and I wouldn't be opposed to interceptors either.

Maybe adding something like this in?
Strike Squad (10) w/ two psycannons, daemon hammer, psybolt - 250
Strike Squad (10) w/ two psycannons, daemon hammer, psybolt - 250

[Learn2Eel]

I'm actually curious now, is the 2 swords, 2 halberds, 1 daemon hammer the way I should outfit my Terminators, especially given the way I want to run them? Also obviously the psycannon.

[Learn2Eel]

EDIT: GAH!!! Rage....I forgot, Chimeras can't be taken by Terminators as dedicated transports! Ergh....ok, list rewrite.
My main issue is I want to use my 10 Terminators, the problem is fitting them into a decent list that has lots of bodies to support them rather than a stupid 15 model army. I'd rather not waste the models I've bought. If I run them on foot I guess that could work but then I just see them as an easy target that will take a few turns to get into the thick of things. The alternatives aren't much better unfortunately, deep striking is too unreliable for my tastes. There is the whole teleport homer route I could go but.....eh.

EDIT 2:

Ok, this is what I've come up with again.

HQ
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/ terminator armour, psyker mastery level 1 - 95
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/ daemon hammer - 40

Troops
Strike Squad (5) w/ psycannon, daemon hammer, razorback, psybolt - 170
Strike Squad (5) w/ psycannon, daemon hammer, razorback, psybolt - 170
Strike Squad (5) w/ psycannon, daemon hammer, razorback, psybolt - 170
Terminators (5) w/ psycannon - 225
Terminators (5) w/ psycannon - 225

Heavy Support
Dreadnought w/ two twin-linked autocannons, psybolt - 135
Dreadnought w/ two twin-linked autocannons, psybolt - 135
Dreadnought w/ two twin-linked autocannons, psybolt - 135

On the 2 HQ's, I had 135 points spare after doing everything else and I really had no idea what to do with it; I was planning on just running a base Inquisitor as my sole HQ, but had 110 points spare that I couldn't really put to use. Then I thought, hey! I have both the Draigo and Coteaz models! Then it dawned on me; a Malleus Inquisitor takes terminator armour and gets a daemon hammer, but when he becomes a psyker he gets to change a weapon out for a force sword. This way, I don't put any of my models to waste - though I think some people will give me very strange looks (so....your Draigo there.....he's an Inquisitor?).
Terminators go on foot, maybe soaking up fire for my other more valuable/fragile stuff, and get into assault in Turn 3/4, shooting all the way at targets of opportunity. I guess I may as well put both Inquisitors in with the Terminators for laughs.

[Bean]

A few pieces of advice.

For regular terminators, I would play a sword on the justicar, three halberds, and a hammer on the psycannon.

In general, swords aren't that good, but they have a place, I think, in helping the Justicar through challenges, but Halberds and hammers are the go-to. Only one sword. two or three halberds. one or two hammers, I think.

With regard to the inquisitors, don't play Draigo as an inquisitor--just play Coteaz as Coteaz. He's really good, and his ability to take divination powers (which you should definitely do) makes him even better.

You can find somewhere else to put those last points.

Actually, bring the terminators as a single unit of ten (you can always combat squad them if you want) and buy that unit psybolt ammo.

[Learn2Eel]

A few pieces of advice.

For regular terminators, I would play a sword on the justicar, three halberds, and a hammer on the psycannon.

In general, swords aren't that good, but they have a place, I think, in helping the Justicar through challenges, but Halberds and hammers are the go-to. Only one sword. two or three halberds. one or two hammers, I think.

With regard to the inquisitors, don't play Draigo as an inquisitor--just play Coteaz as Coteaz. He's really good, and his ability to take divination powers (which you should definitely do) makes him even better.

You can find somewhere else to put those last points.

Actually, bring the terminators as a single unit of ten (you can always combat squad them if you want) and buy that unit psybolt ammo.

The only issue is I've already assembled the Termies - 8 halberds, 2 daemon hammers, 2 psycannons.

Other than that, I'll do that :) Thanks for the advice!

After doing what you suggested, I had 15 points spare, so I master-crafted the daemon-hammers on the Strike Squads. I was actually wondering, is the daemon hammer better taken on a Strike Squad Justicar than a normal Strike Squad member due to the extra attack? The obvious problem is if he dies from Perils I lose a daemon-hammer - but then again, I've got three Psyflemen dreadnoughts and loads of psycannons anyway - that and he can easily be killed by a higher initiative character in a challenge.

[Bean]

The only issue is I've already assembled the Termies - 8 halberds, 2 daemon hammers, 2 psycannons.

Other than that, I'll do that :) Thanks for the advice!


Oh, yeah, well, that's good, too. Swords are certainly not necessary.




After doing what you suggested, I had 15 points spare, so I master-crafted the daemon-hammers on the Strike Squads. I was actually wondering, is the daemon hammer better taken on a Strike Squad Justicar than a normal Strike Squad member due to the extra attack? The obvious problem is if he dies from Perils I lose a daemon-hammer - but then again, I've got three Psyflemen dreadnoughts and loads of psycannons anyway - that and he can easily be killed by a higher initiative character in a challenge.

Seems reasonable.

Putting the hammer on the Justicar definitely makes it more fragile. The problem is that putting it on anyone else means that you get one less attack with it, which is a shame. Mastercrafting helps with that, but, even so, there's some give and take either way.

Try it on the justicars first. If this results in the hammer dying too often or being neutered by challenges too often, then switch.

[Learn2Eel]

Will do, cheers.

I came up with a 2000 point list recently, this is what it turned out to be;

HQ
Grand Master w/ psybolt - 180

Elites
Purifiers (5) w/ two psycannons, daemon hammer - 145
Purifiers (5) w/ two psycannons, daemon hammer - 145
Purifiers (5) w/ two psycannons, daemon hammer - 145

Troops
Strike Squad (5) w/ psycannon, daemon hammer, razorback, psybolt - 170
Strike Squad (5) w/ psycannon, daemon hammer, razorback, psybolt - 170
Strike Squad (5) w/ psycannon, daemon hammer, razorback, psybolt - 170
Terminators (10) w/ 2 psycannons, psybolt - 470

Heavy Support
Dreadnought w/ two twin-linked autocannons, psybolt - 135
Dreadnought w/ two twin-linked autocannons, psybolt - 135
Dreadnought w/ two twin-linked autocannons, psybolt - 135

I added the Grand Master to make more scoring units - out of either the Purifiers or Dreadnoughts - or whatever else suits the game. The Purifiers are there as added fire-support - I really wasn't sure what I could add to this list at 2000, and I thought adding 15 more bodies wouldn't hurt, especially given how much more dakka it brings. I thought about switching the Grand Master out for Crowe - a model I don't have - so that the Purifiers are troops, but then I thought I'd be over the troops unit limit and also if I did that I should really change the whole list to be a Purifier spam list.

Anyway, that was my idea for additions at 2000 points. The army ends up having 11 psycannons as well as the three Psyflemen dreadnoughts (and the Psybacks) - they can deal with pretty much any mech army thrown at me (except for flier spam) and still shred infantry. I really don't know what I should do for that extra 500 points.
Another idea even would be to add in a pair of Stormravens and fit the Terminators in to them? Still, it wouldn't bring as much dakka as the Purifiers, though it gives me a better method of dealing with the fliers - not that there are very many anyway. I'm kind of bummed for ideas haha.

[DarkLink]

In general, swords aren't that good, but they have a place, I think, in helping the Justicar through challenges, but Halberds and hammers are the go-to. Only one sword. two or three halberds. one or two hammers, I think.

Staves are awesome now. I buy them on every Justicar I can find the points for, and it's worked brilliantly.

I would also take two hammers, now that Terminators are more durable and NFWs aren't AP2.

[Learn2Eel]

My only gripe with the warding staves is that you pay a lot of points for a save that only works in melee.

[Bean]

My only gripe with the warding staves is that you pay a lot of points for a save that only works in melee.

I get it. I still think they're pretty good, but it is a lot of points. They're certainly not necessary.

[Learn2Eel]

Had a funny game today, my first use of a Dreadknight - I bought it simply because I decided that the three psyflemen dreadnoughts would be WAY over the top for a lot of people I face (i.e. they would think I'm a WAAC gamer) and plus because I thought it would be an awesome model to own.

Suffice to say, it more than impressed me on its first outing.

Given what little stuff of Grey Knights I have at the moment, I used him in a list that only had himself and a Land Raider Crusader starting on the board (Terminators and Librarian inside). Luckily for me, I got second turn and so could safely deploy both in a corner away from the majority of his firepower. He got the automatic night fighting warlord trait, meaning that all he could really do was zoom towards me. He had a Land Raider of his own, and came zooming at me with it. He made the mistake of charging it straight at my Dreadknight, not realizing that Dreadknights can take personal teleporters. In any case, I got a first turn charge with it and promptly destroyed the Land Raider.

What happened next was amazing. His ENTIRE ARMY shot at it. I'm not exaggerating. Mind you, he only had a handful of weapons that could actually ignore its armour save - my Librarian had earlier cast Foreboding (the 4+ invulnerable save blessing) on the Dreadknight as well. And from all of that he did a grand total of.....2 wounds. :eek: Oh and did I forget to mention Mr. Dreadknight, after being shot at by his entire army, was then charged by a 10 man assault squad with an attached Sanguinary Priest? Yeah. 2 wounds in total. And the only reason he died (about two-three turns later) was because I forgot to challenge his dual power-fist Captain, the only thing that could actually finish him off.

I know that I can expect to see a lot more plasma and melta than I saw in this list, but seriously, I was shocked. As far as I can tell, it did it's job twice over - being a massive distraction and thus a foil for my other units, and even making its points back. It ended up killing over 350 points, about 115 more than what it costed. From then on it wasn't difficult at all to steamroll the rest of my opponents army.

TLDR, I'm officially in love with the Dreadknight and as such will be running a pair of them in place of the three psyflmen dreadnoughts. The amount of (small arms) firepower they can survive is truly astonishing.
Just had to talk about how amazing this guy was today, sorry :D

[Seirin]

DKs are certainly useful if used right. Just don't expect many players to make the movement distance mistake - especially the players who are good enough for that to matter against. It's a very rare thing for me when I use a DK or two that they make their points back, but they do make fantastic distractions. The worst armies I've found for them are IG, nids and necrons so be ready.

For a piece of advice, I would seriously avoid using grand strategy on a DK to make it scoring. Reason being that it's pretty sure to die and waste the allocation.

[Learn2Eel]

DKs are certainly useful if used right. Just don't expect many players to make the movement distance mistake - especially the players who are good enough for that to matter against. It's a very rare thing for me when I use a DK or two that they make their points back, but they do make fantastic distractions. The worst armies I've found for them are IG, nids and necrons so be ready.

For a piece of advice, I would seriously avoid using grand strategy on a DK to make it scoring. Reason being that it's pretty sure to die and waste the allocation.

I know that the three psyflemen Dreadnoughts are better value but frankly they are a great way to alienate one from their fellow gamers :( I agree, the guy I was playing against had no idea that Dreadknights could take personal teleporters. Very few people will ever make that mistake, it's just funny that it happened in my first game with it. The big thing for me wasn't so much it's offensive capabilities - I truly have never seen a single model tank that much firepower. It was astonishing to say the least. I can only imagine how much firepower a pair of them will draw, which kind of balances out the loss of long-ranged power from the Dreadnoughts. Another army I have to be worried about is Dark Eldar.

Yeah I had that thought in that dual Stormraven list, now I don't need/want it because I have four scoring units as is - even at 1500. I'm still list tweaking at the moment, I've got a 10 man Terminator unit with Coteax to bunker down on my home objective and provide fire support (deep strikers, outflankers, etc beware). I've got three strike squads with a psycannon and daemon hammer in psybolt razorbacks. Then there's the two teleporting Dreadknights, but I can't fit in Incinerators. To me it's a good list without being overly cheesy, and there's a lot of unit redundancy; each unit can deal with infantry and vehicles and they complement each other nicely.

My concern is tactics. Shunting the Dreadknights on the first turn is a possibility but I'd rather they flank the advancing Razorbacks. With the Terminators, being my real assault unit (with plenty of dakka) is it worth keeping them back? Or should they advance as well depending on the mission? Having a third of my army in one unit and sitting in my backfield worries me, though it is one tough bunker unit that can combat squad as necessary. I'm still tossing up ideas.

[Seirin]

To say 'better value' isn't necessarily right. The way you use a DK vs a psyrifle is what sets them apart - either can be used to great effect.

If you can fit the purifiers into a razorback its much more efficient.

As for tactics - you really have to play it by ear and do what the situation calls for. Predict the opponent and try to do the unexpected (within reason).

Shunting the DKs is all well and good but if you do and they lack shooting weapons then they basically become sitting ducks. Not always bad, but a consideration.

Dark eldar haven't been a problem for me honestly. Granted that we play very different armies, the mobility of your lists would cause DE a fair amount of issue once your used to them.

[Learn2Eel]

To say 'better value' isn't necessarily right. The way you use a DK vs a psyrifle is what sets them apart - either can be used to great effect.

If you can fit the purifiers into a razorback its much more efficient.

As for tactics - you really have to play it by ear and do what the situation calls for. Predict the opponent and try to do the unexpected (within reason).

Shunting the DKs is all well and good but if you do and they lack shooting weapons then they basically become sitting ducks. Not always bad, but a consideration.

Dark eldar haven't been a problem for me honestly. Granted that we play very different armies, the mobility of your lists would cause DE a fair amount of issue once your used to them.

Yeah I agree, when I said that I was thinking more along the line of number-crunching math-hammer lol. The Dreadnoughts will probably make their points back easier but they are nowhere near as good at drawing fire as the Dreadknights are - nor are they anywhere near as durable.

You think maybe a Purifier spam list? I'd probably have to drop the Terminators and Coteaz in that case. There's no denying the value though. For an extra 25 points per squad I lose Warp Quake but get +1 attack, Fearless, an extra psycannon and Cleansing Flame. That and melee weapons are cheaper - even running two halberds for an extra four points would be a good idea. I know I wouldn't make many friends at my store though :p

Yeah I'd rather just have them move up and support the rest of my mobile forces rather than shunt usually, though as you say, if the situation calls for it then it is a good option to have. No-one wants two very menacing monstrous creatures that are tough to kill right next to them on the first turn.

The only issue I think I'd really have with Dark Eldar is that my Dreadknights would be very susceptible to the sheer amount of poisoned and AP2 shots they tend to have. Other than that, if my Dreadknights get into melee safe and sound they won't die - they'll just be tarpitted by wyches instead lol.

[Learn2Eel]

I took the Purifier suggestion and ran with it, coming up with a 1500 point army list in the process. The difference between my previous army list (with the strike squads, coteaz, 10 terminators, etc) and the Purifier list is astonishing. I did a number crunch for shooting and worked out that if all units are stationary (simple stat workings) the Purifier list not only puts out 76 shots to the SS lists 73, but in those total shots it has about 16 more psycannon shots. :eek: And given the way I want to combat-squad my Purifiers, the Purifier list will be getting far more stationary psycannon shots than the SS list. The rest of the numbers would simply be unnecessary waffling.

HQ
Castellan Crowe - 150

Troops
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Terminators (5) w/ psycannon, psybolt - 245

Heavy Support
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
1501

If someone has an issue with the 1 point over I can just drop a halberd on one of my Purifiers, no biggie.
Anyway, the plan is to combat squad each Purifier unit; having four psycannons and a hammer deploy in cover or move into cover on the first turn with good line of sight for the battlefield, and the four halberds and other daemon hammer to go in the Razorback. The Dreadknights are intended to be distraction units that I will use to destroy targets of opportunity and anything my psycannons may potentially struggle with - such as Land Raiders or Monoliths - or even to tarpit nasty combat units that can't really damage it but would otherwise hurt my other units. The Terminators are there mostly because I already have their models and they are a rock-hard scoring unit that is quite scary in combat, also because I couldn't figure out what to spend the other points on. Crowe can do as he pleases - I realize he is an easy target for First Blood but frankly the Razorbacks may as well be too. I'm thinking of either keeping him in my backfield to scare off/tarpit would-be attackers of my psycannon units or running him up behind the Razorbacks and charging into a suitable unit.

One of the big things I noticed about this list is not only how much raw damage it dishes out in both shooting and combat, but also the target saturation. Do I shoot at the two jumping Dreadknights that can make mince-meat of my heavy weapons squads and vehicles? Do I shoot at the two psycannon squads that are tearing up my transports and heavy infantry? Do I shoot at the Razorbacks that are at best an annoyance, but are carrying deadly melee units inside? Do I shoot at the nasty Terminator unit walking up to my army/deep-striking in my back-field? Do I shoot at his tax? A good army list can counter this pretty well, and a good player would probably destroy the Razorbacks early - letting the melee Purifiers get close is bad enough so shooting them early is a good idea. The Dreadknights realistically won't do as much damage as my other units, but they are still scary as hell and can easily annihilate many heavy (and expensive) vehicles or units my opponent might have. The Terminators are....well...Terminators, and kitted out in a very nasty way. The psycannon squads are probably the most obvious target, but being marines, they are never "easy" to kill, especially if they find cover. This is the kind of army where one really needs to neutralize one target at a time - wasting select shots at Dreadknights, for example, just irritates them.

So, army weaknesses. Surprisingly, this army list has only one less model than the other army list and is obviously a lot more 'elite'. A 30 model strong Grey Knights army is nothing to sneeze at. Still, I pay the points for every single model - the cheapest model in my army is 26 points. Sheer weight of firepower will mess me up. If I follow my basic plan (which I can freely change to adapt to different situations) it leaves my psycannons very exposed - I can't really hide them behind other models. My melee Purifiers can't charge when they hop out of their Razorbacks, and they lack any serious ranged firepower - though for an assault unit 10 storm bolter shots is pretty good - and can and will be gunned down in short order if I am not careful with their positioning. The Dreadknights lack ranged weapons and as such are - as a previous poster put - sitting ducks if they do a shunt on the first turn. They also have no way of mitigating bad melee rolls. Crowe is an obvious feeder model - unless I get the first turn and I am in position to fire my psycannons from the get go at some tasty targets, I will more than likely concede First Blood - though of course I can always hide him behind a Razorback. The Terminators are forced to either foot-slog and tank damage or deep-strike and be shot at when they come down. Being Terminators, this isn't a massive issue and Relentless gives them a good bubble to provide fire support on the move, but it still isn't ideal.

I must really apologize for constantly making new army lists that take wildly different directions, but I guess that's the point - I'm learning and adapting to what would be better. Also because I don't want to buy models that I will end up leaving at home more often than not. Thanks a bunch guys.

As an aside, I came up with this at 2000;

2000
Castellan Crowe - 150

Troops
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Terminators (5) w/ psycannon, psybolt - 245

Heavy Support
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Purgation Squad w/ four incinerators, razorback w/ psybolt - 150
1999

:D

[RGilbert26]

Why are you running dreadknights with no weapons?

[Learn2Eel]

Do they really need them?
Given the new DCCW rules, the Greatsword and the Hammer aren't really worth it.
The ranged weapons aren't that great - the psilencer and psycannon are far too expensive for what they do, and the incinerator is good but still a 30 point upgrade that isn't necessary.
The only one I'd give them is the Incinerator - the Dreadknight I have is modeled with one - but it's 30 points that I can spend elsewhere. That 30 points pays for three psycannons on my Purifiers.
The Dreadknight would obviously be better with a gun but I don't see them as worth the price of admission. As a jump monstrous creature his purpose is to scare the crap out of my opponent and have them focus fire on him. If he survives, I want him to get into combat ASAP. I have to be wary of hordes - which the Incinerator would be amazing against - but considering his movement options, it's not like I'd be forced into such a conflict too often.

Essentially, I look at what works best for the army as a whole. I save 60 points on the Dreadknights that pay for 6 psycannons, which will do a heck of a lot more damage usually than 2 heavy incinerators. The Dreadknights suffer but my army gets a big buff to its overall dakka.

[Seirin]

DKs don't really need weapons as has been said, but yes an incinerator makes them better.

Don't mean to be an agony-aunt here but you do realize that a razorback can only fit half of each those purifier units? For general utility rhinos would be better and free up 29 points - with your 1999pts thats one heavy incin.

If you also drop psybolts off your terminators that'll almost get you another heavy incinerator, and psybolts on a 5-man squad aren't all too effective either.

Similar comments for your 1500 list but instead of more...

My 1500 pt crowe list is:

HQ
Crowe

Elite
Vindicare

Troops
5 purifiers w/ 2 psycannon, 2 halberd, hammer
Psyback with searchlight
(4 units of the above)

Heavy support
Psyrifle dread x 3

Exactly 1500, could replace the psyrifles for DKs easily enough, etc.

[Learn2Eel]

DKs don't really need weapons as has been said, but yes an incinerator makes them better.

Don't mean to be an agony-aunt here but you do realize that a razorback can only fit half of each those purifier units? For general utility rhinos would be better and free up 29 points - with your 1999pts thats one heavy incin.

If you also drop psybolts off your terminators that'll almost get you another heavy incinerator, and psybolts on a 5-man squad aren't all too effective either.

Similar comments for your 1500 list but instead of more...

My 1500 pt crowe list is:

HQ
Crowe

Elite
Vindicare

Troops
5 purifiers w/ 2 psycannon, 2 halberd, hammer
Psyback with searchlight
(4 units of the above)

Heavy support
Psyrifle dread x 3

Exactly 1500, could replace the psyrifles for DKs easily enough, etc.

Oh right, I forgot to explain I think. Each game I want to combat squad each 10-man Purifier unit; the four halberds and one daemon hammer go in the Razorback, whilst the four psycannons and second daemon hammer stay on foot. The psycannon 'squad' either deploys or moves into cover/a good firing position on the first turn and lays down the thunder. That was the idea anyway - that way I wouldn't have to worry about my psycannons getting into the thick of it, and it's less tanks for me to buy. The FAQ ruling does say it's perfectly legal, and psybacks are just too cheap to not employ.

I changed the 2000 list to drop the Terminators and add in a third Dreadknight; I'm buying a second one soon hopefully and then I want to convert up a very special one later.

2000
Castellan Crowe - 150
Inquisitor Coteaz - 100

Troops
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, razorback w/ psybolt - 348
Inquisitorial Servitors (3) w/ heavy bolters, chimera w/ dozer blade - 90


Heavy Support
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter - 205
1999

Kind of a funny list, I had 190 points spare and couldn't really decide what to spend it on - my reasoning for this came to be I wanted to convert some Enginseer models (I think the servitor models are ghastly) and also because it gets a transport for Crowe to run into. Also, it's another cheap scoring unit that can lay down some decent dakka. I used a friend's Vindicare Assassin in a game a few weeks ago and he did his job; neutralizing a Vindicator, killing a few Sergeants, etc. They seem quite fun but they just seem like easy targets to me. All it takes is two wounds to get past his great cover/invulnerable save and that's 145 points gone.
Now that I've thought about it, if I drop Coteaz, the Servitors and the Chimera I could take incinerators on each Dreadknight and have 100 points spare. I could either take a Techmarine with an upgrade or two to stick with one of the psycannon squads for his bolster defence ability, or I could take Psybolt on each of the Purifier units and have 40 spare. After adding in dozer blade for the Razorbacks, I have 25 spare. I guess I can mastercraft some weapons but....eh.

Actually, does this look better at 2000?

2000
Castellan Crowe - 150

Troops
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, psybolt, razorback w/ psybolt, dozer - 373
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, psybolt, razorback w/ psybolt, dozer - 373
Purifiers (10) w/ four psycannons, two daemon hammers, four halberds, psybolt, razorback w/ psybolt, dozer - 373

Heavy Support
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter, incinerator - 235
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter, incinerator - 235
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ personal teleporter, incinerator - 235
1974

[Seirin]

While I'm personally a fan of 5-man purifier squads in psybacks (6 squads in 2k), that second list looks decent to me. You'll have 6 scoring units when combat squad'd up and a fair balance of forward and back units.

With those spare 26 points you could afford to master-craft a weapon on each squad - ideally a hammer on the KoTF but a halberd for challenges works too.

Edit: If your gonna go for servitors then go for plasma cannons. Just for the fun of it! Plus a chimera running around spewing plasma bolts is...funny. Heh you could even go for 3 plasma and 2 jokaero for a mobile heavy fire unit....similar to what I'm running atm.

[Learn2Eel]

While I'm personally a fan of 5-man purifier squads in psybacks (6 squads in 2k), that second list looks decent to me. You'll have 6 scoring units when combat squad'd up and a fair balance of forward and back units.

With those spare 26 points you could afford to master-craft a weapon on each squad - ideally a hammer on the KoTF but a halberd for challenges works too.

I was originally going to do that but I'm sort of over vehicles at the moment haha, three is about all I can stomach lol. I was thinking I'd give the KotF for each squad a halberd; better for challenges, and also I don't have to worry about losing the hammer on my first Perils. That and he has 2 attacks like the other Purifiers, but master-crafting obviously is a boon.

Thanks for the suggestions mate, really appreciate it :D And this time I'll stick to this list lol, I've been changing it around way too much haha.

[Seirin]

Good luck hope it runs well! At least opponents won't have to look at 3+ psyriflemen for a while haha.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah haha, I was tempted to use them for a while there. It came down to a discussion I had with a GW employee - do I want to make friends or not? :p The Dreadknights are still nasty though.

[Seirin]

I don't play much at my local shop anymore..mostly play at a small club. Less whiners who don't understand you can play for fun but still play to win...

[Learn2Eel]

I don't play much at my local shop anymore..mostly play at a small club. Less whiners who don't understand you can play for fun but still play to win...

I'm of the same mind, though I only really play at my local store. It doesn't really bother me what list someone runs; in the end, it's their money and time that they have spent on their models, it's unfair of anyone else to say they shouldn't be allowed to use it because it's 'cheesy'. I think the GW guy I was talking to was only joking, after all nobody in that store runs those Dreadnoughts really anyway. It'd be different to the usual Grey Knights we have (Draigowing).

I also had a fun idea, instead of the 245 point Terminator unit at 1500 points I can switch them out for a third teleporting Dreadknight and give psybolt to both Purifier units. :D
Hard to deal with three Dreadknights at that points level....sounds better than the lone Terminator unit, especially given my Purifiers would have psybolt too :cool:
Sadly, there's only one other Dreadknight in our local store, and it's one of those 300+ point ones (sword, psycannon, psilencer, teleporter). Having played against it, it's scary as hell. Playing against three of them would be a nightmare for some people lol.

[Seirin]

Personally I have to say...fully tooled up DKs are a pleasure to play against - It dies just as easilyl and that's 70~100 points not spent on better things.

As for 3 DK in 1500...it might be fun. Shunting alpha strike and watch the other player weep. The psybolt helps and well...terminators are good but have limits.

Honestly, I dislike playing typical draigowing or crowe lists. Prefer a regular old grand master and coteaz combo.

[Learn2Eel]

Haha I laugh inside every time I see it - my 235 point Dreadknight is not only as good in combat without bothering to pay 25 points to get re-rolls at S6, but it also threatens infantry and heavy infantry much better than the psilencer/psycannon combo - well maybe not as well but far better against hordes/light infantry. It's quite sad really.

Well, the Terminators were there as another scoring unit and basically a throwaway because I had points spare. They weren't ever really going to do too much - it was either deep strike into the fray, draw fire and charge; march up the field and support the Purifiers, or bunker on an objective. Good to have but they were out of place in the list. Giving psybolt to the Purifiers is probably a better investment, especially given that a third Dreadknight will really have people worried about target priority. I look at it like this; sure, it's three Dreadknights, but I mostly do it because the alternative that I had before isn't as good anyway for the purposes of my army.

Haha yeah, that's what I wanted to do. That or a Librarian with Coteaz. I've got Coteaz' model, so what I'll do is just mix and match parts of this army list with the other stuff I have. This army I see as my base army, but I do also have Draigo and could run a Draigowing if I really wanted to - for example. It's why it is good to have options :D It's fun to try different things.

[Seirin]

GMs make fantastic grenade caddies and overall badasses, and can be quite killy too if thats what you want.

For scoring units, if you run coteaz then 3 acolytes in psybacks are fun. 62pts for a scoring unit and a psyback. Dies easily though..

Crowe can actually be useful bunkering down on your home objectives or midfield as this is often where opponents will throw their top-end CC characters, letting your suicide have some use.