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View Full Version : Blood Angels 1500: Where's That Deep Strike Magic?



ElectricPaladin
07-10-2012, 01:26 AM
Damn, but making a blood angels list in 6th edition that keeps some of the drop out of the sky and kill stuff magic is hard! Here's my first attempt. I'm trying to include some of those air-dropping models that I love the best with some of the ground-based stuff we need to include now that you have to deploy at least half our armies on the table. I'm also trying to stay away from too many vehicles, except for those with excessive awesome or high survivability.

Here we go:

HQ
• Librarian w/Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol

Elites
• 5 Sanguinary Guard, 1 Chapter Banner, 2 Infernus Pistols
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Searchlight
• 2 Sanguinary Priests w/Jump Packs

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines, Power Fist Sergeant, 2 Meltaguns
• 5 Death Company, 1 Power Fist
• 5 Scouts 1 Missile Launcher
• 5 Scouts 1 Missile Launcher

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Searchlight

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons & Mulit-Meltas, Searchlight

The idea is to deploy the death company and the dreadnought in the stormraven, the predator (scout moving into the best position possible), and the scouts (infiltrated, probably). The assault marines (and one priest), the sanguinary guard (and the librarian and the other priest) deep strike. After the stormraven has delivered the death company, it can start zooming around.

To expand the list for bigger games (2k), I'd probably add a Vanguard Veterans squad and a Reclusiarch as a second HQ.

What do you think?

Wolfshade
07-10-2012, 01:42 AM
I'm always interested to see both DC and VV in the same list, for me DC were always the better choice and having both seemed a little redundant, I will be interested to hear how you get on with this list

ElectricPaladin
07-10-2012, 02:09 AM
I'm always interested to see both DC and VV in the same list, for me DC were always the better choice and having both seemed a little redundant, I will be interested to hear how you get on with this list

That's a thought. I probably could use those 500 points to add the Reclusiarch and MANY more well-equipped death company rather than the vets... And vets are incredibly expensive - so much so that I'm never quite sure they're worth it.

Wolfshade
07-10-2012, 03:26 AM
I made the mistake back in 5th once thinking that witrh their relic blades and stuff and large points sink that they would be a devastating assault squad, but in the game (I could have been using them wrong mind) they seemed little more effective than an assault squad.

Mesi
07-10-2012, 05:25 AM
Honestly, the most I've ever used Vanguards for is giving the sarge a fist, loading them up with Storm Shields for 3++, then DOA them in with Heroic Intervention to tie up units I don't want to deal with. For a unit of 5, with one fist and 5 storm shields the price isn't too bad.

With 3++ they are going to live a good long time, and you can use them to keep the pressure off your other units from some of their heavy hitters. And if you can get a priest near them, 3++ with FNP makes them even more of a pita to remove.

(Speaking of Vanguards, they are actually useable in a Vanilla Marine book with Shrike now. Fleet is amazing for assault ranges)

Truthfully the banner in the S.Guard is a waste of points.

Personally I'm not a fan of scouts in BA lists. I'd rather take another assault squad, combat squad it into a melta team and an objective team. Then DOA one to kill a target of opportunity and the other onto or near an objective.

The Baal seems a little out of place being the only armor on the board. Raven's are an exception because it's a flyer, and good anti flyer defense. All your opponents anti-tank shots have one and only one target. The Baal isn't going to last more then a turn. Target saturation is something to aim for. Make them have to choose what to shoot their shots at. With only one piece of armor on the board you're telling them what to do. And by removing it you can free up some points to take more infantry.

Those would be my suggestions.

ElectricPaladin
07-10-2012, 10:16 AM
Truthfully the banner in the S.Guard is a waste of points.


Hm. I'll have to think about that. I find that the bubble of awesome that gives the Sanguinary Guard even more attacks. But I'll take it off, mess around with the points, and see what I can do with it.



Personally I'm not a fan of scouts in BA lists. I'd rather take another assault squad, combat squad it into a melta team and an objective team. Then DOA one to kill a target of opportunity and the other onto or near an objective.

The Baal seems a little out of place being the only armor on the board. Raven's are an exception because it's a flyer, and good anti flyer defense. All your opponents anti-tank shots have one and only one target. The Baal isn't going to last more then a turn. Target saturation is something to aim for. Make them have to choose what to shoot their shots at. With only one piece of armor on the board you're telling them what to do. And by removing it you can free up some points to take more infantry.


I see your points on both counts. However, the Baal and the Scouts both fulfill an important role: they are neat elements that don't DoA. Remember, in 6th you can only Reserve half your army. If I'm going to DoA the Assault Squad (1), Sanguinary Priest (2), Librarian (3), Sanguinary Guard (4), other Sanguinary Priest (5). Then I need to have at least five elements I can deploy at the start of the game: Dreadnought (1), Death Company (2), Scout Squads (3) and (4), Baal (5), and Stormraven (6).

The six is important because I'm not sure if combat-squadding the Assault marines makes them count as two units or one.

Anyway, if I take out the scout squads and the Baal, I need to replace them with elements that deploy.

That said, one thing I could do is replace the scouts with:

• 5 Asssault Marines, Hand Flamer Sergeant, 1 Flamer
• Razorback w/Twin-Linked Lascannons

This gives my opponent a second vehicular threat - a credible one, full of scoring models and just as capable as my scout missile launchers were of doing a little anti-tank - to keep some of the heat off my Baal. Also, see what I did there? The flamers on that squad are to make them a better counter-charge unit. They're probably going to take a lot of heat as an assault unit that comes out of a tank, and flamers are the best snap-fire weapon in the game, since rather than having to roll 6s to hit, they automatically deliver d3 hits at the weapon's strength.

Anyway, any thoughts on this change?

Mesi
07-10-2012, 01:53 PM
This is what I plopped down at 1500

Libby with a pack

S. Guard
S. Priest w/pack x2

10 Assault Marines, Melta x2, Infernus pistol, Melta bomb
10 Assault Marines, Melta x2, Infernus pistol, Melta bomb
10 Death Company, 1 Power fist (no packs they go in the Raven)

Death Company Dread (these guys are stupid good in 6th, don't take blood talons keep the str 10)

Storm Raven, TL Lascannon, TL Mutli Melta, extra armor.

1500 exactly.

DC and Dread go in raven in rereserve. You can deliver them where ever you want to absolutely wreck anything in their path.

Libby goes in S.Guard, use their 2+ to protect him. His powers should be shield/sword

Priest in each assault squad, spreading fnp bubble to s. Guard too. Now you decide rather to combat squad and DOA the melta teams. Or keep them as big 10 man blocks marching down the board.

Fists on sarges will get you killed in challenges, melta bombs lets you deal with walkers. Triple tap melta on each squad is plenty of fire power.

ElectricPaladin
07-11-2012, 12:10 PM
Balls.

Ok, this list is illegal. The Stormraven must start off the board, even if it begins the game in hover mode.

Here's my second attempt:

HQ
• Librarian w/Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack
•*Honor Guard w/4 Power Weapons

Elites
• Chaplain w/Hand Flamer
• Sanguinary Priest w/Jump Pack

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines, Power Fist Sergeant, 2 Meltaguns
• 5 Assault Marines (No Jump Packs), Sergeant w/Hand Flamer, Flamer, in a Laserback
• 5 Assault Marines (No Jump Packs), Sergeant w/Hand Flamer, Flamer, in a Laserback
• 5 Death Company, 1 Hand Flamer, in a Razorback w/Flamers

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Assault Cannons

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons, Meltaguns, Searchlight.

Ok.

The librarian and his honor guard go in the Stormraven. They can jump out the window and skies of blood deep strike or be delivered directly into combat, depending on the situation. The sanguinary priest goes with the jump marines, who also begin in reserve and deep strike. The chaplain hangs out with the death company.

So, at deployment I have a pretty standard metal boxes marines list: a scout-moving predator and three razorbacks, two with lasers and one sinister black-painted one with flamers. As they roll towards my enemy, my stormraven can swoop in to deliver my elite combat team - the honor guard and librarian. I also have a deep striking troops element that I can drop in to seize or assault objectives.

Tynskel
07-11-2012, 06:21 PM
uuuh, how is this list illegal?

ElectricPaladin
07-11-2012, 06:40 PM
uuuh, how is this list illegal?

Not the second list, the original list.

In my original list, I assumed that the Stormraven could start on the board. That's not true. As a flyer, the Stormraven must start in reserve. With the Stormraven (1), Death Company (2), and Dreadnought (3) in reserve, along with the Librarian (4), Sanguinary Guard (5), Sanguinary Priests (6 and 7), and Assault Marines (8). That means I need to have eight elements that I can start on the board, but I've only got Assault Squad (1), Assault Squad (2), and Baal (3). No go.

Maybe "illegal" is the wrong word. "Not delivering what I want it to and possibly dumb" is better ;-).

My new list, though, starts with Assault Squad (1), Assault Squad (2), Death Company (3), Chaplain (4), and Baal (5) on the board and Librarian (1), Sanguinary Priest (2), and Stormraven (3) in reserve. That's allowed. Heck, with that many anchor units (that's what I've taken to calling the units I need to deploy in order to reserve the units I want to reserve), I can also keep my Baal in reserve in order to outflank it.

PhoenixFlame
07-11-2012, 09:37 PM
As a flyer, the Stormraven must start in reserve.

True, however it also doesn't count toward the number of models held in reserve, fliers, pods, spores et al that must begin in reserve aren't included in the unit tally for reserves (in essence pretend they're not even part of your list when figuring out the "only 1/2 your army may be in reserve" issue. This also means (assuming I haven't really misread my copy of 6th ed :p ) that 100% reserve armies are still possible so long as they are contained within pods/spores/fliers etc.

I don't know if any of that has any weight for your list configuration but I thought I'd bring it to light in case it was of use :)

Cheers,
Phoenix

ElectricPaladin
07-11-2012, 10:39 PM
True, however it also doesn't count toward the number of models held in reserve, fliers, pods, spores et al that must begin in reserve aren't included in the unit tally for reserves (in essence pretend they're not even part of your list when figuring out the "only 1/2 your army may be in reserve" issue. This also means (assuming I haven't really misread my copy of 6th ed :p ) that 100% reserve armies are still possible so long as they are contained within pods/spores/fliers etc.

I don't know if any of that has any weight for your list configuration but I thought I'd bring it to light in case it was of use :)

Cheers,
Phoenix

Ooooh. That gives me lots of interesting possibilities, like drop-podding devastators to act as fire support.

But, wait, let me clarify this.

Only half my army can start in reserve. That means that for every unit and independent character that starts in reserve, one unit or independent character must start on the field.

Models that must start in reserve don't count. Does that mean that they count as models in play? Or do they just not count at all. For example, could my army be deployed like this...

Sanguinary Priests (Reserve 1 and 2)
Assault Squad (Reserve 3)
Assault Squad (Reserve 4)
Dreadnought in Drop Pod (In Play 1)
Devastators in Drop Pod (In Play 2)
Stormraven (In Play 3)
Terminators in Stormraven (In Play 4)
Librarian w/Jump Pack in Stormraven (In Play 5)
Sanguinary Guard in Stormraven (Reserve 6)

Would that be 4 models in reserve and 6 in play, a legal deployment? Or would that mean 4 in reserve, 0 in play, and 6 not counting at all, an illegal deployment?

Wolfshade
07-12-2012, 01:45 AM
Things that must start in reserve don't count as being in play so:

- Must be in reserve -
Dreadnought in Drop Pod
Devastators in Drop Pod
Stormraven

- Chosen reserve (in Stormraven) -
Terminators in Stormraven
Librarian w/Jump Pack in Stormraven
Sanguinary Guard in Stormraven

- In Play -
Sanguinary Priests
Assault Squad
Assault Squad

ElectricPaladin
07-12-2012, 02:55 AM
Things that must start in reserve don't count as being in play so:

- Must be in reserve -
Dreadnought in Drop Pod
Devastators in Drop Pod
Stormraven

- Chosen reserve (in Stormraven) -
Terminators in Stormraven
Librarian w/Jump Pack in Stormraven
Sanguinary Guard in Stormraven

- In Play -
Sanguinary Priests
Assault Squad
Assault Squad

Ah ha! So.

If it MUST start in reserve because of it's nature, then it doesn't count at all (ie. Stormraven).
If it MUST start in reserve because of the nature of it's dedicated transport, then it doesn't count at all (ie. anything in a drop pod).

If it COULD be deployed on the table and comes into play under its own power, it counts as reserve (ie. deep striking Assault Squad)
If it COULD be deployed on the table and comes into play riding in something that must start in reserve, it still counts as reserve. (ie. Terminators in the Stormraven)

If it IS on the table, then it counts as on the table (no surprises here...) (ie. Laserback Assault Squad).

Thanks for clearing that up. Looks like I should re-examine my list against...

PhoenixFlame
07-12-2012, 03:03 AM
Wolfshade has the right of it, units embarked upon dedicated transports count as a single unit, hence if your dedicated transport is required to start in reserves (as in the case of both pods and fliers) then the whole unit is removed form consideration when calculating reserves.

This however does not apply to ICs who've joined a unit AFAIK so keep that in mind but it does provide for a lot more flexibility in builds/deployment than the "only half your army" reserve rule seems to give on face.

Side note: Keep in mind that dedicated transports are still separate units when it comes to kill... er victory points ;) that can sometimes come back to bite you if you're not accounting for it (I learned that first hand at Ard Boyz a few years back so I want to save others the same pain :D ).


EDIT: Ah, you responded to Wolfshade before I finished posting seems like it's all cleared up :)

ElectricPaladin
07-12-2012, 03:18 AM
And to think... I was considering selling off my two drop pods, or converting them into the basis of a small non-Blood Angels marines force. It's a good thing I never got around to it. Those drop pods could very well be invaluable to creating a reserves-heavy Descent of Angels-style army in 6th edition.

If the question is "how do I get my entire army up in my opponent's face as fast as possible?" then the Blood Angels answers used to be "fast vehicles" and "deep striking." Both of those choices have been weakened in 6th edition, the former through the general weakening (though not, I think, nerfing) of vehicles, and the latter was weakened by the new deep strike rules. In order to acheive the goal of "all in your face, all the time," the Blood Angels will now need to rely on a variety of tactics.

And "free reserves," like drop pods and stormravens, will help a lot.

Thanks for helping me figure out how to use them.

Wolfshade
07-12-2012, 04:03 AM
Also don't forget you still need to apply the drop pod assault rule 1/2 first turn, 1/2 reserves

ElectricPaladin
07-12-2012, 05:04 PM
I gotta say, continuing to explore this, I don't really see room for a Stormraven in my list at 1500 points.

I mean, really, what is it good for? Or, more specifically, what is it good for that a drop-heavy Blood Angels list really needs?

Delivering troops? Anything put into it has to contend with the flyer rules, which sharply limit its utility as a transport and render the Assault Vehicle special rule hard to take advantage of. And thanks to the Descent of Angels special rule, I already have a reliable way of delivering drop troops, thank you very much. Delivering dreadnoughts? Drop pods do it better, for cheaper.

Long range fire support? Four Devastators armed with the humble Astartes Missile Launcher and mounted in a Drop Pod are cheaper and produce a higher volume of more reliable fire.

Anti-vehicle fire? My laserbacks do that pretty well, and additionally can start on the board (balancing my drop troops), and carry assault marines and hold objectives.

Fighting other flyers?

Well, yeah, I guess it would well at that.

But that's 200 points to compete in a metric that has yet to seriously penetrate my local meta... I'm just not seeing it.

What do you think?

PhoenixFlame
07-12-2012, 07:03 PM
I gotta say, continuing to explore this, I don't really see room for a Stormraven in my list at 1500 points.

I mean, really, what is it good for? Or, more specifically, what is it good for that a drop-heavy Blood Angels list really needs?

Delivering troops? Anything put into it has to contend with the flyer rules, which sharply limit its utility as a transport and render the Assault Vehicle special rule hard to take advantage of. And thanks to the Descent of Angels special rule, I already have a reliable way of delivering drop troops, thank you very much. Delivering dreadnoughts? Drop pods do it better, for cheaper.

Long range fire support? Four Devastators armed with the humble Astartes Missile Launcher and mounted in a Drop Pod are cheaper and produce a higher volume of more reliable fire.

Anti-vehicle fire? My laserbacks do that pretty well, and additionally can start on the board (balancing my drop troops), and carry assault marines and hold objectives.

Fighting other flyers?

Well, yeah, I guess it would well at that.

But that's 200 points to compete in a metric that has yet to seriously penetrate my local meta... I'm just not seeing it.

What do you think?

Were it me (and my way certainly isn't the only option here by any stretch ;) ) I'd go with a sans Stormraven list first and modify as/if needed after a few games.

IMO this does two things which are positive in light of tactics and learning 6th on the table.
First it keeps your list more centered on "5th" in a sense thus allowing for more rapid adaptation of battlefield awareness from 5th to 6th (at least that's how it works for me).
Second it reduces the impact of points spent on AA in any lists you face.
Between the two it makes for a great jumping off place to get that on the table exp. needed to fine tune any list to maximize effect within your personal play style.

My 2c,
Phoenix

EDIT: Something I just noticed looking over these rules again is that it's not "1/2 your army may be in reserves" it's "1/2 rounded up..." meaning that if you built a list (not saying it's the best list idea but just as an example) with only a single unit that doesn't have to start in reserve/is embarked upon a dedicated transport that must start in reserve, then you could put that unit into reserves and start the game 100% in reserve.

The more functional version of this is likely to be tweaking the list just a little so you can start with one more unit in reserve (if desired), but you get the idea :)

Wolfshade
07-13-2012, 01:51 AM
Well have the SR gives you a flier and some armies have difficulty at shooting those things out of the sky, and it is an assault vehicle