Help against Daemons?

[Chexmix282]

hey all,

i've been playing with the new Space Wolves codex and have been using the following list:

Logan Grimnar w/ 7 Termies in a Raider Crusader
2 x 10 Grey Hunters w/ PFist, 2 Meltas, Rhinos
2 x 10 Wolf Guard w/ 2 Frost Blades, PFist, Rhinos
6 Long Fangs w/ 2 Lascannons, 3 Heavy Bolters

One of my regular opponents usually runs:

Fateweaver
Bloodthirster
5 Bloodcrushers
5 Flamers
2 x 15 Bloodletters
2 x 10 Horrors
2 Daemon Princes w/ Wings

I just have no idea how to deal with the "fortuned" Bloodcrushers. he is a very good player and will never let them out of Fateweaver's "fortune" range. I dont really have enough firepower to take out Fateweaver at range, and he surrounds him with the Crushers while keeping 2 units of Bloodletters also in range which makes assaulting the crushers a bad idea as he can countercharge with the Bloodletters/Bloodthirster.

so... er...

how do would you deal with Fatecrusher? i'm kind of at a loss... any suggestions for list change/tactics would be helpful. thanks!

[MUMBLES]

It's going to be hard to deal with "fatecrusher" without some backup from the Inquisition. All you can hope for is to get some crushers stuck in with dreads(because they'll rip anything else apart), and take out fateweaver asap. Make sure you stay in that LRC as long as possible, and move over 7" every turn to give you a bit of survivability. If you're willing to ally with an inquisitor, grab an elite one, with the advisors that allow shooting at deepstrikers and throw him a suit of termie armor and a psycannon.

Best of luck!

[Chumbalaya]

Fatecrushers move 6", just don't get in assault with them.

He can't touch your vehicles, so keep moving and blow them away, tank shock off of objectives, and corral them up. Dreads are immune to Crushers (S5 vs AV12 = lol).

They also Deep Strike with huge monster bases, so spread out and force them into a bad position (far away or mishap). Infiltrators or Scouts help a lot.

[AnarchX]

Try a Rune Priest with Jaws of the World Wolf for Fateweaver. If he keeps all of his stuff bunched up, maybe a Vindicator or Whirlwind.

You have a lot of Wolf guard, you may be better off spending those points on Grey Hunters, or another Long Fangs Pack as torrent of fire seems to be the best way to kill Fateweaver.

Use Scouts and OBEL to thin out the Bloodletters from behind or a Dreadnought with Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer in a Drop pod is real handy as well.

How many points is this? I don't have access to the new Codex yet...

Thanks,

AnarchX

[DarkLink]

An Inquisitor with a Psycannon will kill Fateweaver in a turn or two of shooting.

Shoot the Bloodthirster with your big guns, and bolter the bloodletters to death.

Then assault the bloodcrushers with a Dreadnought. Five 'crushers will surround your dreadnought, preventing anything else from assaulting it, if anything is even still alive to kill the Dread in cc.

Then, you've either killed or neutralized at least a third of his army.

[AnarchX]

Don't forget that the list has 4 MC's which get an extra 2D6 armor pen against vehicles (including Dreadnoughts) so assaulting the Bloodcrushers with a Dread may not be the wisest thing. You may only tie them up for a turn or two at the most before they get help.

Vindicators are nice against Daemons as you can usually get a lot of them the turn they come in, esp. the shooty stuff like Flamers and Horrors.

Personally I would never stoop to asking the Inquisition for help... ;)

Thanks,

AnarchX

[Chexmix282]

I'm really not a fan of Inducting at all... yeah, inquisitors are good but i just dont like 'em.

this is a 2,000 pt game btw.

i played a game with 2 packs of long fangs but they always get Flamer-ed. i hate Flamers.And in the 6 or so games that i've uses Wolf Scouts they've rolled a 1 or 2 for their outflank. I know that its improbable but every game i use them they dont do anything. I'll probably swap in another pack of long fangs though (maybe 2 Plasma Cannon & 3 Heavy Bolters) as i really do need more supporting firepower.

i was toying with the idea of running a 4 or so combi-plasmas on my terminators (as this is my primary anti-tough things unit) in order to severely thin down the Crushers before charging them. I could then assault the Bloodletters with my other units of Wolf Guard after softening them up with the Grey Hunters (Logans +1 A thing comes in handy here). I'll have to try it out.

[AnarchX]

I don't have the new Codex yet, but didn't we keep OBEL for our Scouts? Or do we have to roll for it now?

I don't know how survivable a Lone Wolf is, but they may also be a viable option for tying up something...

Thanks,

AnarchX

[Chumbalaya]

Best way to handle Crushers is avoid them. They're slow, it's not hard.

Go after MCs with your shooting and fighty stuff, then send in a Dread or two to take the Crushers out of the game.

If Flamers are causing you problems, deploy in cover or inside a vehicle, or spread out to give him no safe landing zone.

[Confuddled]

@Chexmix282:

1) Eh. First question – how much stuff can you change in your list?



Logan Grimnar w/ 7 Termies in a Raider Crusader
2 x 10 Grey Hunters w/ PFist, 2 Meltas, Rhinos
2 x 10 Wolf Guard w/ 2 Frost Blades, PFist, Rhinos
6 Long Fangs w/ 2 Lascannons, 3 Heavy Bolters

Assuming you’re keeping the list as-is, the only thing I can think of would be to set the Long Fangs up as bait in one corner of the table or the other (preferably far far away from any objectives) whilst the rest of your army stays in reserve.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Tsui/BR/D.jpg
Assuming a Capture & Control mission, Long Fangs in lower left corner, objective in lower right corner.

a) If the Daemon player ignores them and goes for the objective, the Long Fangs are free to blast away AND you have the option of making a home run for his (uncovered!) objective.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Tsui/BR/T2.jpg




b) If the Daemon player takes the bait and jumps them, you’re now free to have your vehicles come on where they can do the most good (ie far far away from the “core” of the Daemon army) – see if you can tempt him into splitting his army (ie 4 winged MCs head off, leaving the Bloodcrushers uncovered).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Tsui/BR/T1.jpg



2) If you’re going to go mech, go all the way – its not just about armour and mobility – its about armour, mobility and mobile firepower.

So, keeping that in mind:
a) Scrap the 10-man squads for 6-man squads with Razorbacks (5 Grey Hunters, melta gun, maybe a power weapon, 1 Wolf Guard, combi-melta, fist? Hits almost as hard if not harder than a 10-man squad, and cheaper too!)

b) Go with a 4-man Wolf Guard squad and downgrade the Raider to a regular (lascannon) Land Raider.

Seriously, 7 Terminators and Logan hitting anything is just a serious case of overkill, especially if you use Logan to give the squad Preferred Enemy!!


Tactics would otherwise be the same, except:

a) With Razorbacks, you can come on and sting him with heavy bolter fire (and/or assault cannon or even lascannon fire if you’ve got the points to spare!) until he comes out to play.

b) With Logan riding in a regular Land Raider, you can either sit and camp on an objective whilst daring the other guy to come to you OR lead the charge into the heart of the other guy’s army.

[MajorSoB]

If Flamers are causing you problems, deploy in cover or inside a vehicle, or spread out to give him no safe landing zone.

Wrong answer! Flamers ignore cover and auto glance vehicles on a 4+. Unless you are playing on a 2x2 table or playing a massive horde army you can't spread out enough. This list is solid and will cause most armies fit.

[Confuddled]

Further to my previous post, what I’d do to tweak the list (assuming it’s a 2000-point list)?



Logan Grimnar

5 Grey Hunters, melta
Wolf Guard with power weapon
Razorback, t/l lascannon

5 Grey Hunters, melta
Wolf Guard with power weapon
Razorback, t/l lascannon

6 Wolf Guard
2 Frost Blades
Power fist
3 combi-meltas
Razorback

6 Wolf Guard
2 Frost Blades
Power fist
3 combi-meltas
Razorback

4 Wolf Guard Terminators
Land Raider, extra armour, multi-melta

6 Long Fangs
2 lascannon
3 heavy bolters

Vindicator, Siege Shield

Vindicator, Siege Shield (or Land Raider, extra armour, multi-melta)


Depending on whether you take the second Vindicator or Land Raider, you’ll have 70-221 points left over to spend on extra wargear (power fists and storm shields for the Terminators, more combi-weapons, more power weapons/Frostblades etc).

[Chumbalaya]

Wrong answer! Flamers ignore cover and auto glance vehicles on a 4+. Unless you are playing on a 2x2 table or playing a massive horde army you can't spread out enough. This list is solid and will cause most armies fit.

I'm referring to Flamers Deep Striking and taking dangerous terrain checks in terrain. And glances? Seriously?

[Lerra]

My suggestion would be to go for volume of shots over lascannon shots. All daemons are immune to instant death, low AP doesn't help against invuln saves, and Fateweaver is only T5. Heavy bolters and assault cannons are great. Plasma guns are better against daemons than meltaguns (and it's free in a 10-man grey hunter squad).

Keep in mind that he's only got a 2/3rds chance of getting Fateweaver on turn 1, too. That's a 1/3 chance to hurt him badly before the bloodcrushers or Fateweaver hits the table.

[Confuddled]

My suggestion would be to go for volume of shots over lascannon shots. All daemons are immune to instant death, low AP doesn't help against invuln saves, and Fateweaver is only T5
Agree that volume of fire is great when dealing with Daemons, especially when it comes to mowing down their troop choices.

Which is why I’d strongly suggest upgrading the Rhinos to Razorbacks.

The ability to stand off and shoot helps too, especially when you’re planning on keeping a significant portion of your army in reserve –

a) The early arrivals have the option to keep backing away from the advancing Daemons until the rest of your army shows up.

b) It allows you to make the most of your mobility, since you're faster than anything bar the 4 winged MCs.


Trouble with relying on Rhinos? You’d want to get within 12” of your target to shoot from the top hatch with maximum effect, which is much too close when you’re up against Daemons.

At the same time, bringing along a couple of high-strength guns (ie lascannon) can help knock wounds off T5 daemons, especially T5+ Daemons with 3+ armour saves (the Bloodthirster, Bloodcrushers and possibly the Daemon Princes, depending on their exact configuration).



Plasma guns are better against daemons than meltaguns (and it's free in a 10-man grey hunter squad).
Agree that the second special weapon is free, but that’s assuming you ignore the cost of fielding a full 10-man squad in the first place, as opposed to, say, a 5-7 man Grey Hunter squad. ;)


Say you stick with a Rhino because you really really want to shoot from the top hatch:

10 Grey Hunters, 2 meltas/plasma, Rhino = 190-195 pts

6 Grey Hunters, 1 melta/plasma, power weapon, Wolf Guard with combi-melta/plasma and power fist = 188-193 pts

a) You only get 1 shot with the combi-melta/plasma, but in return, you still have 5 ablative wounds, a power weapon, a power fist AND improved odds of passing your Counterattack Ld test (for 4 S4 I4 power weapon attacks and 3 S8 power fist attacks on your first round).

b) The squad might be smaller, but that’s a good thing, especially in the event that you get assaulted by something really scary, since the odds are higher that the squad gets wiped out, allowing you to continue shooting the **** out of it on your next turn.

(And in the unlikely event that you get jumped by a full 15-man squad of Bloodletters, well, it doesn’t’ matter whether you’ve got 10 Grey Hunters or 5 Grey Hunters led by a Wolf Guard – you’re going down.)

[DarkLink]

(And in the unlikely event that you get jumped by a full 15-man squad of Bloodletters, well, it doesn’t’ matter whether you’ve got 10 Grey Hunters or 5 Grey Hunters led by a Wolf Guard – you’re going down.)

Heh, a 5 man Bloodletter squad on the charge will do the same job, too.

Anyways, mechanizing against daemons is a good idea. Daemons don't like fast moving vehicles, particularly LR's. Only the MC's can kill LR's reliably, and a crusader will put tons of wounds on Bloodletters and flamers.

To deal with flamers, never, ever, ever deploy anything outside of a vehicle until you've kill the flamers. Ever.

[Chexmix282]

thanks for all the help!

i really dont like razorbacks... they just seem like too many points for a TL Lascannon to me, even though it's mobile firepower (also i dont want to buy razorback turrets lol).

I also dont want to make too many compromises on this list in order to beat this one player... i'm trying to stick to an all-comers build (and i absolutely HATE tailoring).

I do like the idea of trying to bait him with the Long Fangs, Confuddled. If he doesnt take the bait then they'll be free to fire! (assuming that they dont get Flamer-ed, which they usually do lol)

And i do agree with cutting down the size of the terminators... they're eating up too many points anyway. I'm toying with having two units of Long Fangs with Plasma Cannons and Heavy bolters (idk how many of each) with the excess points. I'm not a fan of vindicators due to their shortish range, and for the points i'd rather have a pack of Fangs with 5 Heavy Bolters.

well we're playing another game tonight so i'll post up how it went and with what list i ran.

[Xas]

there are two ways tob eat this... an easy one and a hard one.

easy way: ally 1 squad of 3 grey knight termiantors with 1 psicannon and buy the captain a psicannon as well.

thats 6 s6 shots that ignore faties invul save. remember he only has 3 wounds and toughnes 5! this squad will take prolly one, maybe two turns of shooting to kill him.even after that the squad is still highly letal to all but the big deamons and crushers!


hard way: kill faty by volume of fire. he doesnt like stormbolters, hates heavy bolters and is extremely allergic to assoult canons. again t5 and 3wounds. even a 3+ rerollable invul save only means you ahve to cause a statistical 27 wounds before saves till he is gone (that is without world wolf or him running away!)



once the big bird is dropped those lists tend to fold. the only msitake you can make is to shoot anything but him first.

[Confuddled]

i really dont like razorbacks... they just seem like too many points for a TL Lascannon to me, even though it's mobile firepower (also i dont want to buy razorback turrets lol).
… ….
I also dont want to make too many compromises on this list in order to beat this one player... i'm trying to stick to an all-comers build (and i absolutely HATE tailoring).
Can’t argue with you on not wanting to buy razorback turrets, especially if you’ve already bought Rhinos.

I’m definitely with you on the subject of tailoring – which is why I’d proposed that you field lascannon razorbacks. :D
- Against Daemons, they’re not exactly stellar, but they ARE serviceable.
- Against anyone else (ie opponents who actually have access to armour), the lascannon razorbacks are there to back up the shots from your meltas, combi-meltas and standard Land Raider.

Of course, if I were to tailor a list, then those razorbacks would have nothing BUT heavy bolters. ;)

Anyways, how’d the game go?

[Chexmix282]

The list i took (roughly):

Logan
2 x 10 Wolf Guard (2 Frost Blades, Fist) w/ rhinos
2 x 10 Grey Hunters w/ 2 Meltas, Fist, Rhinos
5 Wolf Guard Termies (4 Storm Shield/pWeapon, 1 Heavy Flamer/Fist)
Land Raider Redeemer w/ Multi-Melta
2 x 6 long Fangs w/ 3 Plasma Cannons, 2 Heavy bolters

it was a 2k.

the game went horribly. It was a 3 objective game with one in the middle and 2 in opposite corners, with him getting first turn. i baited him with the long fangs as you suggested (i ended up taking 2 units of them) and held everything else in reserve. I put both units of Fangs in multiple levels of a 2 story building opposite his objective... only to have one unit completely wiped out by 8 horrors before they got to shoot. His dice were really hot and mine, well, werent.

i weakened his crushers with plasmacannon fire on my first turn (he had crushers in his second wave and fateweaver in his first wave... he got his second wave first lol) and on turn 3 or so wiped them out with by assaulting them with my termies. i also assaulted 2 units of weakend bloodletters with 2 full strength wolf guard units on turn 3 as well (using Logans "Feat")... only to have him lose almost no bloodletters (like 2 from each unit) and wipe out each of my wolf guard units. Logan was then turned into a spawn by fateweaver (i had no idea he coulld do that). Following that he bolt of tzeentch-ed my Grey Hunter rhinos and assaulted the units inside with his Thirster and bloodletters and i conceded on turn 5 when i had no scoring units left. his dice were stupid good for the entire game... i cant attribute his win solely to dice as he is a great player and i made a few mistakes but it definitely helped him a considerable amount.

oh well... i guess i'll try again nest week lol.

[Bonham63]

Boon of Mutation is the power that FW has too make you the chaos spawn. If the daemon list you provided in OP is accurate, then your friend is playing over 2000 points of daemons. I have 2063 with no upgrades on any unit, other than putting the changling in one of the horror units. This means he should have no icons or special powers, other than the ones they come with automatically. So if he had BOT, then the point list for the daemons is even closer to 2100 points.

[Chexmix282]

i just asked him about it a bit ago and i was off on the numbers a tad:


Fateweaver
Bloodthirster
5 Bloodcrushers
3 Flamers
2 x12 Bloodletters, 1 unit has Icon
2 x 10 Horrors (might be 9), 1 unit has Icon
2 Daemon Princes w/ Wings, Iron Hide

he showed me his list and it added up fine... i then forgot most of the upgrades and numbers lol.

[Kloud]

Next time I go to a tounament, and I find myself accross table from a Demon Player. I am just going to award him full points for a massacre, give him 0 for sportsmanship, and 0 points for army composition, Then I am going to go watch someone else's game. I'm pretty sure I will find watching another game much more enjoyable, than getting my *** handed to me by pure cheese.

Maybe if GW ever releases a new DemonHunter Codex, with Rules that actually make them effective VS Demons, and also allows me to take allies. Maybe then I'll play against a Demon Army again.

I refuse to play against Fantasy Demons as well.

But after playing against both 40K and Fantasy Demons, then reading through their Army Books, Demon armies are not even fun to play against.

I know alot of people will argue Demons are not unbeatable, but their Army books, are just plain ridiculous.

[Katie Drake]

I know alot of people will argue Demons are not unbeatable, but their Army books, are just plain ridiculous.

They're nowhere near unbeatable. Normally I don't resort to 'you statements' but I'm going to have to make an exception this time. Your attitude toward Daemons is simply terrible. If you're not interested in playing against Daemons you have every right to bow out of the game, but giving them zero points for sportsmanship because you don't like the army that they have decided to play? That's simply terrible.

[Chexmix282]

Daemons really arent that bad in 40k... in fact it is almost impossible for the list he used to beat my regular tourney mech Eldar list. he has drawn me once and every other time i have massacred him simply because they have little to no reliable anti-tank firepower. in 40k they are far from unbeatable... my Eldar have never lost to Daemons.

Daemons in Fantasy, however, are completely ridiculous. They are still beatable but a tourney-tuned Daemons list is one of most challenging things to beat in the game. But i'm always up for a challenge!

I dont want to be rude but i honestly detest your attitude towards Daemons... they arent broken at all, they just require some thought to beat.

[Lord Anubis]

Maybe if GW ever releases a new DemonHunter Codex, with Rules that actually make them effective VS Demons, and also allows me to take allies. Maybe then I'll play against a Demon Army again.

Seriously? How much more effective do they need to be? Granted 5th edition has created a few issues for the Grey Knights and some wargear items, but there's still the core of a very powerful army there-- especially against demons.

Facing a demon army, an Inquisitor with a mystic or two in his/her retinue is always going to get two rounds of shooting at most demon units before they can assault back, and Hierophants make it harder for those demons to assault. Psycannons and incinerators will annihilate the majority of demons. Destroy Demon has always been a useful psychic power for Grey Knights and Inquisitors, as is Sanctuary. With the functional wargear left in the armory, you can halve a demon's WS and lower its initiative.

The same would hold for a demon-heavy Chaos Marine army.

Although why anyone would bother with such a thing these days is beyond me... ;)