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Ivarr
09-30-2009, 10:12 AM
Is anyone else building a wolf guard terminator list? If so, what are your plans for it? I am actually considering running Logan Grimnar and 4 squads of terminators with 2 in landraiders....

Chumbalaya
09-30-2009, 12:44 PM
It's going to be like Deathwing, a handful of expensive models up against a full army. Outnumbered, outgunned, outmatched, but never out-awesome'd!

A mech Loganwing is going to be really expensive with a paltry handful of models. 2 Land Raiders are tough, but if that's your whole army they won't last long. You'll need to incorporate cheap, disposable units to back up your army and do the job if your Terminators get unlucky.

2 big mean Termie squads in LRCs (keep them cheap, 2 CF/SS max, lots of single wolf claws), Logan, a Rune Priest, GH in Rhinos, dakka Preds, MM/HF Speeders, doggies, and Dreads.

I'll be doing a foot version, all Termies all the time.

Logan, Rune Priest, 10 Termies + 2 cyclone (4 krak missiles + tank hunters = yayz), 3 5 man cyclone squads, and 3 Lone Wolves. Add doggies for cheap bullet screens and mobile units to tie down problem enemies.

I'm covering the topic now on my blog (http://www.bnhblog.blogspot.com)

Ivarr
09-30-2009, 10:32 PM
I was actually thinking of doing a foot slogging Wolf Guard termie army also....something like:

Logan Grimnar: 275

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (6 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 2 w/heavy flamer + chainfist, 2 w/storm bolter + power weapon) 400

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (8 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 1 w/heavy flamer + powerfist, 1 w/assault cannon + power fist) 425

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (1 w/thunder hammer + storm bolter, 4 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 2 w/assault cannon + power fist, 3 w/storm bolter + power weapon) 445

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (1 w/wolf claw + thunder hammer, 7 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 1w/ assault cannon + power fist, 1w/ assault cannon + power weapon) 455

Total 2000 points:eek::eek::eek:

I really love the idea of Wolf Guard terminators with 1 wolf claw and a storm bolter...just seems more "Space Wolfie" than TH/SB or PW/SB. In any case what do you folks think?

Chumbalaya
09-30-2009, 10:38 PM
That's an awful lot of points sunk in fighty dudes on foot. You have no real answer to vehicles and are basically just rushing up the field hoping to make it. You won't. Any mobile army can hold you at arm's length and whittle your numbers down.

I like cyclones since they can knock out light armor and with Logan's Tank Hunters threaten AV14. But otherwise, combi-meltas and Wolf Claws are cheap upgrades I'd high recommend.

Confuddled
09-30-2009, 11:11 PM
That's an awful lot of points sunk in fighty dudes on foot. You have no real answer to vehicles and are basically just rushing up the field hoping to make it.
... …

I like cyclones since they can knock out light armor and with Logan's Tank Hunters threaten AV14. But otherwise, combi-meltas and Wolf Claws are cheap upgrades I'd high recommend.
Amen to that.

I’d also recommend a drop pod or three to give you a little more power projection.

For a hair over 250 points for the entire unit, you get:

3 Wolf Guard Terminators with combi-meltas
2 with power fists and storm shields
Drop Pod

Adjust mix of combi-meltas and storm shields to taste, depending on whether you want to maximise your tank-killing or survivability.


Call it:

Logan
2 squads of 10 Wolf Guard termies (2 cyclones each)
3 squads of 5 Wolf Guard terminators in drop pods (3 with combi-meltas, 2 with storm shields and power fists)

Leaves you 150 points to spend on upgrades (Wolf Claws, thunder hammers, melta-bombs, chainfists, more combi-weapons etc…)

Ivarr
09-30-2009, 11:18 PM
That's an awful lot of points sunk in fighty dudes on foot. You have no real answer to vehicles and are basically just rushing up the field hoping to make it. You won't. Any mobile army can hold you at arm's length and whittle your numbers down.

I like cyclones since they can knock out light armor and with Logan's Tank Hunters threaten AV14. But otherwise, combi-meltas and Wolf Claws are cheap upgrades I'd high recommend.
Do you think that if I swap 3 of the assault cannons out for cyclones that I will have enough firepower to deal with tanks...(along with the TH and PF if I manage to close)

I would really like to keep the army all Termies...though I am not overly offended by the idea of adding a couple of Predators if I have to...like maybe drop 5 termies from the last squad and and a couple of basic Preds?

mkerr
09-30-2009, 11:29 PM
I just did an all Wolf Guard army in Apocalypse (Grimnar, Njal and 4 Landraiders full of Power Armored Wolf Guard) and it was pretty awesome. I missed the free weapons, but the extra attack was pretty sweet.

I've been toying with a Wolf Guard-heavy army that's mostly Terminators in Drop Pods (just for fun). This is pretty much off the top of my head, but it looks like fun. There's some complicated stuff in it, so I'll just show you where the extra Wolf Guard end up.

HQ

Logan Grinmar

Rune Priest (Terminator Armor, Saga of the Beast Slayer)

TROOPS

6-man Wolf Guard Pack
- 2x Combi-meltas, 1x Mark of the Wulfen (in Power Armor)
- 2x Terminator Armor, Thunder Hammer
- 2x Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
- Drop Pod

6-man Wolf Guard Pack
- 2x Combi-meltas (in Power Armor)
- 2x Terminator Armor, Thunder Hammer
- 2x Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
- Drop Pod

5-man Wolf Guard Pack (Logan goes here)
- 2x Combi-meltas, 1x Mark of the Wulfen (in Power Armor)
- 3x Terminator Armor, Twin Wolf Claws
- Drop Pod

5-man Wolf Guard Pack (Rune Priest goes here)
- 2x Combi-meltas, 1x Mark of the Wulfen (in Power Armor)
- 3x Terminator Armor, Twin Wolf Claws
- Drop Pod

9-man Grey Hunter Pack
- 1x Meltagun
- 1x Mark of the Wulfen
- 1x Wolf Guard (Combi-melta and Mark of the Wulfen)
- Drop Pod

HEAVY SUPPORT

6-man Long Fangs (3x Heavy Bolters, 2x Lascannon)

6-man Long Fangs (3x Heavy Bolters, 2x Lascannon)

Notes: Instead of putting 5 Terminators in Drop Pods, I opted for 4 Terminators and 2 Wolf Guard in power armor. This let's me put the two combi-meltas on the power armor guys (and let them soak up wounds, if necessary).

Dirty Trick #1: To help me assign wounds, none of the Wolf Guard in Power Armor are "identical". One gave up his Close Combat weapon for the Combi-Melta and the other gave up his Bolt Pistol for the Combi-Melta. This let's me pile up wounds more effectively.

This also has my new favorite Grey Hunter squad build (9 Grey Hunters, 1 Meltagun, 1 MotW and 1 Wolf Guard with combi-melta and MotW). You'll notice no Power Weapon/Fist, but I do have two guys with Mark of the Wulfen, which gives me 2d6+2 S4 Rending attacks for 188pts. Not too shabby.

This army isn't going to win a lot of games (it's just doesn't have any staying power), but it's going to be a ton of fun on the board. If you can survive long enough to enjoy it, lol. :)

-- mkerr

Confuddled
10-01-2009, 12:13 AM
Do you think that if I swap 3 of the assault cannons out for cyclones that I will have enough firepower to deal with tanks...(along with the TH and PF if I manage to close)

Not really.

Its not just a matter of having the cyclones – the other problem is that there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to bring all of them to bear on any given enemy tank.

In an ideal situation, each and every unit in an army would have the ability to engage enemy armour, be it at long range (lascannon, missile launchers), short range (melta weapons) or close combat (S8+ attacks).

As it stands, if you concentrate the cyclones, it makes it that much easier for the other guy to outmanoeuvre your army.

If you spread the cyclones out to extend your anti-tank threat envelope, there’s a chance that at least 1 cyclone is going to be out of range.


This can be especially difficult in the event that you run into an army with fast tanks.

Chumbalaya
10-01-2009, 07:43 AM
Do you think that if I swap 3 of the assault cannons out for cyclones that I will have enough firepower to deal with tanks...(along with the TH and PF if I manage to close)

Not really, but you'll have a better chance than no chance at all.

I like the idea of Drop Podding termies, it gets them close quickly and makes the most of combi-weapons and counter attack, but they can be countered like any other DP army (toss in a cyclone and you can give then ranged firepower most DP armies lack).

Adding Predators, Speeders, and Dread will help you dish out some extra pain at range, and they are fairly cheap so you don't lose out on much.

Confuddled
10-01-2009, 08:35 PM
… they can be countered like any other DP army
True, assuming you go all-out with the pods (which, presumably, is the definition of a drop-podding army).

On the other hand, if you’ve got 1-3 pods of Terminators dropping into the other guy’s deployment zone whilst 20 foot-slogging, cyclone-toting Terminators march straight down the middle, your opponent’s options are considerably more limited.

1) Layered meat-shields can still be a problem, but that’s always going to be a problem for such a small, elite army. On the plus side, having a couple of pods allow you Terminators to make a head start on the speed-bumps.


2) When it comes to holding troops in reserve, however, having a couple of Terminator-deployed pods can help a great deal.

Combi-meltas might have a relatively short range, but you’re still looking at a 12”-18” no-go zone around each Terminator cluster.

Back them up with the fire from their 20 foot-slogging brethren and the other guy’s movement options are a lot more limited.





Adding Predators, Speeders, and Dread will help you dish out some extra pain at range, and they are fairly cheap so you don't lose out on much.

Up to a point, at any rate (pun intended).

60 points here, 135 points there, pretty soon, you’re looking at the cost of a Land Raider in lighter vehicles. ;)

If you are going with vehicles, then invest in the big tanks! :D

Regular Land Raiders, mind…

1) Much better-protected unless you run into lance weapons.
2) Land Raiders give you the weight to literally drive through any meatshields the other guy might throw up.
3) Unless a Raider is destroyed, you’re always going to be able to shoot at least one anti-tank gun.
4) Having a small squad camping out in a Land Raider keeps them safe from just about any conceivable outflanking/deep-striking unit.


For Plan C (or was it B?), maybe something like this?



Logan

10 Wolf Guard Terminators
2 cyclone missile launchers, 2 wolf claws, 2 power fists, 2 storm shields

10 Wolf Guard Terminators
2 cyclone missile launchers, 2 wolf claws

4 Wolf Guard Terminators
2 power fists, 2 combi-weapons

4 Wolf Guard Terminators
2 power fists, 2 combi-weapons

Land Raider, extra armour, multi-melta
Land Raider, extra armour, multi-melta


-Logan joins a 10-man squad (presumably the better-equipped one). They either lead the charge, or move up in company with the Raiders.

-Smaller squads ride the Land Raiders, which either stay home and camp OR advance together with the foot-sloggers.

- With 2x10 foot-slogging Terminators, you’ve got a pretty decent shot at keeping the other guy’s melta-equipped units at arms’ length.

Chumbalaya
10-01-2009, 10:14 PM
It depends on what you need. Generally in such an elite army I'd welcome the chance to include some cheap and disposable units like Predators, Speeders, Wolves, and Dreads. Adding more point sinks to an army of point sinks doesn't seem that worthwhile to be honest.

A couple units of WG dropping in would be useful, especially if you have mobile support to back them up.

Denzark
10-03-2009, 09:32 AM
I was actually thinking of doing a foot slogging Wolf Guard termie army also....something like:

Logan Grimnar: 275

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (6 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 2 w/heavy flamer + chainfist, 2 w/storm bolter + power weapon) 400

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (8 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 1 w/heavy flamer + powerfist, 1 w/assault cannon + power fist) 425

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (1 w/thunder hammer + storm bolter, 4 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 2 w/assault cannon + power fist, 3 w/storm bolter + power weapon) 445

10 Wolf Guard Terminators (1 w/wolf claw + thunder hammer, 7 w/wolf claw + storm bolter, 1w/ assault cannon + power fist, 1w/ assault cannon + power weapon) 455

Total 2000 points:eek::eek::eek:

I really love the idea of Wolf Guard terminators with 1 wolf claw and a storm bolter...just seems more "Space Wolfie" than TH/SB or PW/SB. In any case what do you folks think?

Am I missing something but how come no force org troops?

Garland7g
10-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Logan Grimnar let's Wolf Guard units count as Troops..

Chris

Xas
10-03-2009, 01:26 PM
My idea would be the following:

basically an iron rain with termies.

Logan Grimnar (attached to squat1)

Dreadnought (heavy bolter, plasmacannon, wolftail charm) in droppod

Squat1 (5 termies): 3 combi-meltas (1 powerweapon, 1 frostaxe, 1 chainfist), 1 stormbolter/powerweapon, 1 cyclone and dual wolfclaws ( goes to squat 2 to make room for logan) in droppod

Squat2 (5 grey hunters) in droppod

Sqaut3-5 (5termies) 2 kombimeltas /w frostblade, 2 stormshields /w powerweapon, 1 chainfist with assoult cannon in droppod


logan, the all-termie squads as well as the dreadnought are planned to go up and personal (hopeing to kill at least half the enemies heavy tanks in initial drop'n'melta action) while the grey unter squad with the cycle stays back and babysits my objective.
with 21 terminators and a dreadnought I think I'm not that badly outnumbered (especially since I'm usually going to dig into heavy melee turn2) as other termie lists who rely on expensive landraiders.

the assoult cannons should help me deal with the remaining tanks (they are still amazing. even more if logan switches squads mdigame and makes one of them tank hunter!) as well as all sorts of infantry.

Sons of Russ
10-03-2009, 09:19 PM
As a long time Space Wolf player using the Deathwing rules and Tactica; this army has been a long time in coming!

I wanted to see how hard I could make a foot slogging terminator army. I think the SW codex makes it possible to compete against many of the tourney builds out there

A solid core of footslogging terminators, advancing in a phalanx. This is a list where Logan is worth every point, all but guranteeing counter attack, and juicing up his 10x man bodyguard with Tank hunters, Preferred Enemy and Stubborn once they start to lose their numbers...

The rest of the army is carefully selected units that plug the gaps and weaknesses inherent in a all-terminator list.

Landspeeders pop Landraiders, or hide out to turbo boost and contest pbjectives that cant be readily contested by the foot sloggers.

Razorbacks provide long range AP2 and anti-tank punch, shielding terminators from plasma blasts, demolisher rounds and Lash of Submission.

All heavy weapons designed to waste the opponents transports and mobility early on to retake the initiative.

If I can force them to footslog, I have the advantage.

Against static gunline, deploy in refused flank, all units can move and fire at full capacity. Use cover and RB's to block LOS to diagonal fire and overwhelm one flank of the enemy line while the other has little/ no targets.


full battle reports and army thread here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4005683#post4005683


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HQ: 385


Logan Grimnar 275

[SW version of Marneus Calgar]
close combat monster, army wide enhancer
[SW version of Marneus Calgar]
WS 6 BS5 I5 3W, 5A Ld10
Eternal Warrior
Wolf Tail Talisman
Wolf Tooth Necklace
Belt of Russ
Saga of Majesty (Ld Reroll to all units within 6")
Living Legend (once per game, all friendlies get +1 Attack in assault within 18")
The High King (can grant either: Fearless, Relentless, Tank Hunters, or Preferred Enemy to an attached squad)
Axe of Morkia (reforged Daemon weapon! allocated attacks as a mix of str5 power weapon or str 8 power fist)
Storm Bolter
WolfGuard as Troops


Rune Priest 110
Chooser of the Slain
Living Lightning
Murderous Hurricane

TROOPS: 1300

Wolf Guard Pack Alpha [x 5] 215
Terminator Armour,
4x Storm Bolters /3x Power Weapons
+1 Wolf Claw
+1 Chain Fist
+1 Assault Cannon

________
Razorback with Lascannon and Twin Linked Plasma Guns 75
Dedicated Transport:
________


Wolf Guard Pack Bravo [x 5] 210
Terminator Armour,
4x Storm Bolters / 4x Power Weapons
+1 Chainfist
+1 Assault Cannon




Wolf Guard Pack Charlie [x 5] 210
Terminator Armour,
5x Storm Bolters / 4x Power Weapons
+1 Chainfist
+1 Cyclone Rocket Launcher
________
Razorback with Twin Linked Lascannons 75
Dedicated Transport:
________



Wolf Guard Pack Delta [x 10] 440
Terminator Armour,
8x Storm Bolters / 6x Power Weapons
+1 Wolf Claw
+1 Storm Shield
+2 Chain Fist
+2 Cyclone Rocket Launchers
________
Razorback with Twin Linked Lascannons 75
Dedicated Transport:
________


FAST ATTACK: 190

Landspeeder 60
Multi Melta

Landspeeder 60
Multi Melta

Landspeeder 70
Multi Melta /Hvy Flamer


ELITES: 125

“Carlos the Jackal” 125
Mortis Pattern Dreadnought
2x Twin-Linked Autocannons
----------------------------------------

Anti-Tank/Transport:

3x Multi-Melta (Fast Vehicle)
2x Twin Linked Lascannon (Light Tanks)
1x Lascannon (Light Tank)
4x Str 9 Krak Missiles (Tank Hunting, Relentless)
2x Str 8 Krak Missiles (Relentless)
2x Twin-Linked Autocannons (Dreadnought)
1x Living Lightning (D6x Autocannon, U/L Range)
1x Twin Linked Plasmagun (Light Tank)
2x Assault Cannons (Relentless)

5x Chainfists (Assault AT)
1x Logan Grimnar (5/6x Power Fist attacks with Tank Hunter against vehicles, or attacks with Preferred Enemy against MC's, Dreads, and Defilers)

Anti-Horde:

23x Storm Bolters
1x Heavy Flamer (Fast Vehicle)
6x Frag Missiles (Relentless)
1x Living Lightning/Murderous Hurricane
2x Twin Linked Autocannons (Dreadnought)
2x Assault Cannons (Relentless)

25x Terminators with 3/4x attacks, all power weapon or better (10x w/ Preferred Enemy)
1x Logan Grimnar (Storm Bolter, Preferred Enemy, 5/6x Frost Axe attacks)

Confuddled
10-04-2009, 09:30 PM
It depends on what you need. Generally in such an elite army I'd welcome the chance to include some cheap and disposable units like Predators, Speeders, Wolves, and Dreads. Adding more point sinks to an army of point sinks doesn't seem that worthwhile to be honest..

Point!

That being said, I suspect its more a difference of philosophy – what do you expect to see across the table from you?


1) The way I see it, having cheap, disposable units is only really an issue if/when VP are a factor – the trouble with cheap, disposable units is that, well, they’re relatively easy to dispose of.


2) Current trends definitely lean towards heavily-mechanised armies with lots of relatively cheap medium/light vehicles.

As such, I’d expect my opponent to plan accordingly – I’d expect him to have some means of dealing with multiple Chimeras/Rhinos/Trukks/skimmer transports in his army list. Assault cannon, autocannon in various configurations, deffguns and the like.

Guess what’s going to zero in on all those light/medium Predator, Speeders and Dreads? ;)

Once you bring AV14 into play, however, all those S6/S7/S8 guns are going to patter off your heavy armour (or Terminator suits) like a gentle spring rain – it doesn’t help that the most effective guns for killing AV14 are ALSO the guns that you’d want to use on Terminators.

In the meantime, you’d also have enough foot-sloggers (10 Terminators take up a LOT of space, especially at maximum separation) to keep the other guy’s pesky melta-weapons at arm’s length.


I’d agree, however, that the single biggest argument against taking a few big point sinks (3+ terminator units, 1-2 Land Raiders) as opposed to spreading out your firepower would be the popularity of Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar armies (armies that scoff at AV14) in your neck of the woods.

Lerra
10-04-2009, 11:55 PM
it doesn’t help that the most effective guns for killing AV14 are ALSO the guns that you’d want to use on Terminators.

While this is true, anti-infantry and massed low strength guns can also do a number on terminators. I also play Deathwing, and on a point-by-point basis, I'm more afraid of massed FRFSRF guardsmen than most anti-tank shooting platforms.

Confuddled
10-05-2009, 08:18 PM
Oh absolutely – my Terminators are terrified of low-strength/high-volume wounding hits (shooting OR close-combat).

I’m usually more worried about Ork shootas than Guard lasrifles, though.


However, the kicker here is range.

By the time lasrifles really come into play, well, the game is pretty much over...(well, ok, more like turn 4 , but definitely mid/late game.)


For the first couple of turns, however, the only fire I’m going to be receiving would be from anti-tank weapons in the 36”-48” envelope (the exception being troops deploying out of drop pods). At that range, I’d expect to see a lot more autocannon, multilasers, deffguns and missile launchers than lascannon.


And seeing as how the odds of actually inflicting significant damage on Terminators or Land Raiders with low-volume/high-AP weapons are fairly, well, low, what else should I shoot at?
;)

TSINI
10-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Maybe I can help by pointing out what I would take to counter your wolf guard armies.

as an IG player, i would bring (to a competitive game not a friendly)

vanquisher, for the few landraiders, executioners to place 3 plasma blasts down on slow footslogging termys, and medusas to blast ordinance holes in termys.

masses of infantry would fill in the points and FO chart, possibly backed up with a lascannon squad for anti-tank help.

when it comes to MEQ of anykind, I always load up on the AP1 and 2 weapons.


so my question to you is, if I were to take this, how would you modify your force to counter it? its a combo of battle tanks (so you need some good Anti armour) and horde infantry so you need to get your termys into assault early on in thegame to start clawing through the numbers.

(I have a small space wolves army and am actually very interested in your thread, I havent seen the new codex yet though, might have to invest soon)

Confuddled
10-05-2009, 09:27 PM
Its gonna be a bit of a slog, true.

That being said:

1) A squad or three of podding Terminators would be helpful - they’re there to:
a) Attempt an early kill on the key tanks.
MAYBE add a cyclone to the squad in case of a bad (backwards) scatter and/or really dense infantry screens to keep the pods outside of prime melta range.

b) Draw fire from the Guardsmen, and hopefully tempt the Guard player into a couple of friendly-fire incidents.

c) MAYBE have the drop pod generate cover saves for the units behind – depends on just how dense the Guard infantry screen is.


2) A Raider or two to stand off and:

a) Help keep the Terminators safe from Medusa/Demolisher blasts, along with any incidental sniping.

b) Trade shots with Guard anti-tank snipers whilst advancing (slowly) – I’d say that 2 twin-linked BS4 lascannon versus a single BS4 “ordnance” battlecannon is a pretty fair match. Subject to deployment and lines of sight, of course – 72” might be great on paper, but maximising your range advantage for a tank-mounted direct-fire weapon is tricky…


Granted, its risky, but Guard armies have the volume of fire AND enough spare hulls to generate cover saves that I just can’t afford to zoom around the midfield trading shots.


Incidentally, with regard to a Guard list, I’d actually go with Demolishers with plasma cannon sponsons and Hydras. Maybe a Medusa or two. Add Chimeras and about 70 (1 infantry platoon, 2 squads of Veterans) infantry models, with a scattering of autocannon and meltas.

At 1750, I’m looking at 4 Chimeras, 1 squadron of 2 Hydras, 1 squadron of 2 plasma Demolishers, 1 squadron of 2 Medusas, 2 units of melta-toting Vets and 50 infantry (2 autocannon, 2 flamers, 1 power weapon and a Commissar.