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Lord Azaghul
09-30-2009, 10:23 AM
Greetings lads and lasses. I've been thinking of changing up my standard all comers list. for me its basicly added a 3rd vet squad - dropping the LC heavyteam and placing the LC in the vet squads.
I've had great sucess with my infantry squads in the past and don't want to spread them too them.

Tell me what you think?

2000 pts all Comers

HQ1: Bolt Pistol Power First 67
Squad: Plasma, Melta Medpack, 55
Body Guard

HQ2: Powerweapon 60
Squad Sniperx2 MoO 40

1st Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 LC 115
Chimera 55
2nd Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 LC 115
Chimera 55
3rd Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 LC 115
Chimera 55

Platoon
Commander: Bolt Gun 32
Squad: flamer melta plasma 30
1st squad flamer vet w/melta bomb 60
2nd squad flamer vet w/melta bomb 60
3rd squad flamer vet 55
HW1 Mortars 60
HW2 Autocannons 75

1st Penal Legion 80

Fast:
2 Scout Sentinals: MLx2 and HK x2 Spotlight 111

Elite
5 Ratlings 50

Heavy:
Leman Russ: Battle Cannon LC HB 185
Leman Russ: Demolisher Plasma Cannons HF 205
Basilisk x2 250

2000

Chumbalaya
09-30-2009, 12:04 PM
HQ1: Bolt Pistol Power First 67
Squad: Plasma, Melta Medpack, 55
Body Guard

Bolt pistols are a waste of points, PF isn't very useful since you'll lose combat anyway. Medipack on T3 dudes isn't a good investment. Meltas and plasma don't complement each other and unless you're in a Chimera or Valk I wouldn't take special weapons. Keep them alive and cheap, regimental standard and camo cloaks is all you need.


HQ2: Powerweapon 60
Squad Sniperx2 MoO 40

No need for the PW, MoO is too inaccurate, snipers are bleh in such small numbers. Why even have the second CCS, you don't need that many orders.


st Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 LC 115
Chimera 55
2nd Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 LC 115
Chimera 55
3rd Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 LC 115
Chimera 55

Heavy weapon + Chimera doesn't fit, you can get lascannons much cheaper and on more useful platforms. *cough*Vendetta*cough*


Platoon
Commander: Bolt Gun 32
Squad: flamer melta plasma 30
1st squad flamer vet w/melta bomb 60
2nd squad flamer vet w/melta bomb 60
3rd squad flamer vet 55
HW1 Mortars 60
HW2 Autocannons 75

Yuck, what a mess. Bolters waste points, PCS is a mix of weapons that don't work nicely together. Infantry have no heavy weapons, and foot flamers are pointless. You don't even have a commissar to make a nice stubborn blob. Mortars suck, 1 HWS of autocannons is too easy to knock out as the only real threat out of the whole platoon.


1st Penal Legion 80

Fun unit, not the most competitive unit, but it's cheap and looks good.


2 Scout Sentinals: MLx2 and HK x2 Spotlight 111

Pricey for a squadron of open-topped AV10 walkers. Autocannon is cheaper, you always get 2 shots, and 1 less pip of S doesn't matter much on the side armor. You can get 3 for about the same price.


5 Ratlings 50

Best place for snipers, but don't go out of your way for them (snipers still suck, non-scoring snipers even moreso)


Leman Russ: Battle Cannon LC HB 185

Lascannon hull sucks, BS3, 1 shot, high price, and no real complement to your main gun. Hull flamer is superior, scares off would be assaulters and it's free. Sponsons HBs suck because they're expensive, it's only 6 shots at BS3, and you want to keep moving. LRBTs in general suck because S8 doesn't hurt heavy armor, AP3 doesn't hurt termies, and most things have cover anyway. Pretty much anything else does a job better than the LRBT.


Leman Russ: Demolisher Plasma Cannons HF 205

Yummy. I don't like the sponsons much though, keeps you static.


Basilisk x2 250

Of all the good artillery IG have you picked the Bassie? Anything is better.

Lot of points sunk into useless or expensive upgrades. Give your infantry heavy weapons (or meltas, PW, and commissars, glob up for good times), get more heavy weapons, ditch the superfluous upgrades and you'll be good to go.

Lord Azaghul
09-30-2009, 12:26 PM
CCS: two of these are fantastic, One stayings behind giving order to your static elements – the other moved with the main force giving orders to supports them

Plasma/melta combo – I will disagree – very effective against anything with an AP value (terms/SM)
Medipack – I’m iffy on on this one. I’ve had it to wonders and I’ve had it be worthless. Same it try of th power first – keep in mind commanders have a 5+ inv, comes in handy!

Vendetta: don’t own one yet!

MoO – always worth the points, 30pts for S9 ap3 weapon – even if he only kills the first two turns he’s make his points back.

Lascannons – I do agree, and I was debating on this myself. I used to place them in HW teams, but instant death is a problem. However they are also much cheaper to place in a vet squad then in a HW squad

Platoons: Clearly you don’t use them, platoons are amazing and possibly the best thing the guard has. Mortars are awesome, they have almost never failed to get their points back, my opponents spend much time and effort trying to kill these things every time I field them.

Commisars: after about a dozen or so games, I’ve found them not worth it – if your guard get into combat you actually want the opponent to kill then on THEIR turn – leaving a nice condensed squad for a bassie round or two

Sentinals: I always out flank with these lads – and I’m still debating on the autocannons

Snipers: seriously…they do not suck! I’ve killed many a daemon price, SM, Carnefix, and anything else non vehicle with mine!

Russ: I have debating on the sponsons, but the standared battle tank is still a fantastic all comers tank (not everything in an army needs to be have AP2)

Basilisk: I will again disagree sir, the basilisk is amoung one of the most accurate and devistating weapons in the IG arsinal. Are you forgeting it has no min when you direct fire?

HW in infanty: nope: these guys are best with cheap upgrades – flamers are AMAZING, a flamer and rapid firing (with or without FRFSRF) is still a very effective use of them. HW only slow down your effectiveness. Keeping these lads disposible is key!

But thanks for the input and effort!

Chumbalaya
09-30-2009, 02:06 PM
CCS: two of these are fantastic, One stayings behind giving order to your static elements – the other moved with the main force giving orders to supports them

If you keep one static, I'd definitely look into the Regimental Standard, keeps your infantry firing and prevents your HWS from running after losing 1 model. They're fairly pricey though, and taking 2 just isn't worthwhile unless you have a lot of units worth bossing around.


Plasma/melta combo – I will disagree – very effective against anything with an AP value (terms/SM)
Medipack – I’m iffy on on this one. I’ve had it to wonders and I’ve had it be worthless. Same it try of th power first – keep in mind commanders have a 5+ inv, comes in handy!

Plasma kills heavy infantry, melta roasts tanks, mixing them up just means you'll come up short against one or another. The way cover and vehicle damage works, I'd prefer the better chance at popping tanks and the reduced cost so I can fit in more templates and high RoF weapons to force saves instead of having all that pretty AP2 bounce off of 4+ cover. Medipacks are just too pricey to keep a handful of T3 models around, everything in your army is expendable. 3 S6 attacks isn't going to swing combat in your favor, it's all too easy to kill off 3 guardsmen and force you to run.


Vendetta: don’t own one yet!

The best lascannon platform Guard have, but it's not essential.


MoO – always worth the points, 30pts for S9 ap3 weapon – even if he only kills the first two turns he’s make his points back.

It's highly inaccurate and forces your CCS to be static. It's not terrible, but not essential either. I'd consider it good points filler like stubbers and Rambo.


Lascannons – I do agree, and I was debating on this myself. I used to place them in HW teams, but instant death is a problem. However they are also much cheaper to place in a vet squad then in a HW squad

You definitely don't want them on HWS, too easy to run off and no orders. In infantry squads, they work a lot better though since you have no incentive to move anyway, they're cheap, and you can group up 20 men and 2 LCs to one vox for reliable orders. 2 of those batteries only costs, almost half of your Vets. 4 shots as opposed to 3 (same overall % of hits thanks to BS3 vs BS4), easy orders, no mixing roles, and more bodies.


Platoons: Clearly you don’t use them, platoons are amazing and possibly the best thing the guard has. Mortars are awesome, they have almost never failed to get their points back, my opponents spend much time and effort trying to kill these things every time I field them.

Platoons are great and I do use them, I just do it right;) Running 10 dudes up with no ranged threats isn't a very good idea, it's easy to ignore them or just run them off. I either run infantry in the above lascannon battery, cheapo autocannon teams, or a glob of 30 or so men with meltas, power weapons and commissars. Keep them cheap, keep them focused, keep them flexible. 10 dudes with a flamer doesn't do that. Mortars are frag missiles that scatter more, unless your opponents run hordes and/or bunch their models together (both bad ideas, mind you) I don't see much use for them. Autocannons are probably your best bet for a HWS, cheap, shooty, and capable of hurting anything short of Land Raiders through sheer number of shots. Don't take solo HWS though, they're too easy to run off the board or destroy. You need lots to get the most out of them.


Commisars: after about a dozen or so games, I’ve found them not worth it – if your guard get into combat you actually want the opponent to kill then on THEIR turn – leaving a nice condensed squad for a bassie round or two

It depends. 30 stubborn men are difficult for anyone to wade through, so that locks up units for a good long while so you can engage the enemy. If you want a tarpit, they're invaluable. Sacrificial squads are useful too, but they do tend to force you to destroy a unit utterly, leaving the rest of your enemy's units intact and you can bu punished for it. I think either build is fine, it just depends on what you want to do with it.


Sentinals: I always out flank with these lads – and I’m still debating on the autocannons

Autocannons are cheaper, ergo superior for disposable units like Sentinels. 2 shots every turn at S7 is better than 1 shot at S8 (with 1 bonus shot per game).


Snipers: seriously…they do not suck! I’ve killed many a daemon price, SM, Carnefix, and anything else non vehicle with mine!

And I've downed DPs with Grot Blastas, it doesn't make them great DP slayers. If you have the points, fine, but don't go out of your way for them. Like the MoO, they can get lucky and do something cool, but you don't want to lose out on anything essential for their sake.


Russ: I have debating on the sponsons, but the standared battle tank is still a fantastic all comers tank (not everything in an army needs to be have AP2)

Not everything should have AP2, that's why you have autocannons, flamers, and cheap pie plates. When you need something DEAD, the Demolisher or Medusa does it better every time.


Basilisk: I will again disagree sir, the basilisk is amoung one of the most accurate and devistating weapons in the IG arsinal. Are you forgeting it has no min when you direct fire?

It's a trashy compromise tank like the LRBT, not good against anything, just ok. Now that IG has a lot more options, we no longer have to make do with generalist tanks. If you are firing the Bassy directly, open-topped AV12 is exposed to the world, why not just have a Russ then? Any artillery tank is superior. Want to kill infantry? Colossus, Griffon or Manticore. Want to vape tanks? Manticore or Medusa. Want cheap ordnance? Griffon.


HW in infanty: nope: these guys are best with cheap upgrades – flamers are AMAZING, a flamer and rapid firing (with or without FRFSRF) is still a very effective use of them. HW only slow down your effectiveness. Keeping these lads disposible is key!

Infantry with flamers and no transports rarely get any use out of them, if this happens to you regularly you are Lord Solar Macharius reborn or are going up against some poor players. Infantry work best cheap, and cheap heavy weapons work extremely well. Leave the advancing to commissar-led mobs, Penal Troops, or Vets while your cheap infantry secure home objectives and fire away.


But thanks for the input and effort!

Thanks for your thoughts and some good debate.

Lord Azaghul
09-30-2009, 02:51 PM
Alright list update: ‘fat’ trimming version

HQ1 CCS 50
Squad Melta/Plasma 25
Body Guard 15
HQ2 CCS 50
Squad Sniperx2 MoO 40

1st Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 95
Chimera 55
2nd Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 95
Chimera 55
3rdt Vet Squad flamer/meltax2 95
Chimera 55

Platoon
PCS 30
Flamer/Melta/Plasma 30
1st Squad Flamer Vet w/Melta Bomb 60
2nd Squad Flamer Vet w/Melta Bomb 60
3rd Squad Flamer Vet w/Melta Bomb 60
HW1 Mortars 60
HW2 Mortars 60
HW3 Autocannons 75
HW4 Lascannons 105

Penal Legion 80

Fast:
Sentinal Squad (2) Autocannons 80pts
Elite:
5 Ratlings 50

Heavy:
LR: Battle Cannon Lascannon (dropped the sponsons) 165
Demolisher: Plasma Sponsons HF 205
Basiliskx2 250

2000

I will still disagree on your use of infantry. I play against a lot of orks and SM. 10 men guard squads are an excellent destraction, especially in an objectives based game. I find hw in them handy capped by ‘move or fire’ I find it more then worth while that an opponent will spend 100-200 points trying to kill a 50 point unit with a 4+ cover save!

Basilisk – no way! Awesome and cheap! Out ranged almost everything, and indirect fire in DOW is great. Not to mention if you squadron them you can place one in cover and one out!

Cheap pie plates: MoO! And Bassies!

Ratlings: don’t underestmate then – at 10points a piece the rarely disapoint

Commisar: Having seen ork mobs generate 40+ attacks on the turn they charge I prefer not to combine squad – more targets means more choices for the foe, and more difficulty in decieding target priority!

LC – I don’t disagree with our points, but I have a hard time getting use out of HW in 10man squad – still up for debate on this one!

Mixing weapons: I prefer the allcomers take,: melta burns through infantry too, and the plasma can piece most side armour, and the flamer adds the antimob option – either way something is still getting killed and all in squad in is very cheap compaired to what other books can field!

Regimental Standard: Still debating on it – but I do agree pricy!

Lord Solar Macharius: Indeed sir, how cunning of you to have guessed my true guise! I play against a wide variety of opponents, but when I play a SM or CSM army and only lose 3 guardsmen I to recogonize a poor opponent! But I’ve also lost enough games (and played enough fantasty) to pick my targets smartly, bait my oppoenets and sacrifice units when neccesary!

Lord Azaghul
10-06-2009, 07:14 AM
Alright: I cleaned out a assult SM army in capture and control on with this list last week.

I really like my 3 vet squads. I normally only take two, and I place them in reserve, but having 3 is even better, and the melta,melta flamer options means they can take on most anything.

My opponent rammed some honor guard (at least that’s what he called them Tough Armour 2 dudes with large assult weapons) up the centre in a LR, they were pretty killy, but I was able to take a few of them out with snipers before he had to retreat back to defend his objective. Ratling remain as ever awesome.

I am looking more at the medusa, s10 is fantastic, but that would being buying something else from gw!

Autocannons on the walks – nah, the way I use them I think multilaser is the way to go – the high volume of shots makes my opponents take lots of checks, which means failled armour rolls.

All in all I’m happy with the list. If I do anything it may be to drop the 2 plasma guns for an OoF