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Superbran
09-30-2009, 11:09 AM
So I want to start off by saying that I am not a regular fantasy player. Although I enjoy it, I don't get to play on a regular basis. I am positive that there are answers to my thoughts/questions and I would love to hear them from the players that frequent this forum. I agreed to be the extra man at my gaming store for the ard boyz this past week and it got me thinking on some things and I figured I would throw these thoughts out here.

First and foremost although this isn't a vampire question, it is something that has had me baffled for a while. If you complete set up first, you get a +1 to the roll to see if you go first. I understand this. If you roll a 2 and I roll a 3, we tie due to your +1. When we roll a tie breaker, should your +1 still be in effect or is it just a straight up roll? Sorry I know its not a vamp counts thing but it was on my mind, now back to the good vampire stuff.....

I'll start with this thought. Why would anyone want to play skeletons or even worse zombies as a tropps choice. Zombies flat out blow and even though you can ressurect more at a time it is nothing compared to the amount more that you will lose due to ws2, t2, no banner. Skeletons although decent enough are in my opinion nowhere near as good as ghouls. They cost the same, have less attacks, no poison, and t3. Sure they have a 4+ in CC and 5+ vs. range but its only a t3 model and it doesn't benefit from ghoulkin.
This brings me to my next question, why wouldn't you always run ghouls and take ghoulkin? It's a 25 point upgrade that could effect all of your troop choices. Starting off 8 inches closer to enemy is always a good thing.
Is there ever a reason to not mount your vampire heroes on barded steeds unless you plan on flying them out of a unit in order to charge something?
Is the frostblade option really all that good since your vampire lords are so important and yet so fragile?
Are dire wolves really ever worth it? It seems to me that they usually get shot up before they can do anything and even if they can charge an enemy, they still suck in cc. I mean they fight so poorly that they can be a legitimate liability in cc due to the ease of which your opponent can kill them. Also even if they hit softer units, they still fight so bad, that its anyone's game when they get locked in. I mean WS3, str 3, t 3, no armor just sucks. Am I missing out on what their purpose is? Even when I charge an enemies flank, the do so little and end up dying to returned attacks that it tends to be a liability for me. The opponent looses there ranks, (maybe) and does an extra 3-4 wounds instead.
What is the point of taking a necromancer? There seems to be no reason at all to take one. Even if you just wanted some guy to carry dispel scrolls, couldn't you have a vampire do it and still be a factor in CC?
Well, thats just a few questions/thoughts that crossed my mind. I hope some of you can give me some insight into these things and hopefully I'll learn how the vet's use these units.

Randroid
09-30-2009, 04:35 PM
Wow. A lot of questions. The formatting of your questions makes it really annoying to try and answer but what the hell ... I will give it a shot.

The +1 from finishing deployment is just that - a +1 to your roll. If you both roll a 3 and you have +1 you have a 4 and may deploy first. That means if you finish deploying first and roll a 6 you get to go first.

With that out of the way...


Why would anyone want to play skeletons or even worse zombies as a tropps choice.

Because people like to take different things? All of the VC core choices bring different things to the table and it is really a matter of opinion/player preference on which to take.

Zombies are great tar pit units - good for tying up and redirecting units you don't want to charge your flanks.

Skeletons are good character bunkers - with their 4+ AS they can stand up to a bit of beating too.

Ghouls are good offensive units - aside from T4 they die just as easy as Zombies/Skeletons.


This brings me to my next question, why wouldn't you always run ghouls and take ghoulkin?

Because not everyone wants to play Ghouls? It isn't always a good option to move forward either - it might put you into positions you don't want to be in. It is a strong offensive choice but there are other good things in the list too.


Is there ever a reason to not mount your vampire heroes on barded steeds unless you plan on flying them out of a unit in order to charge something?

You don't have the points to do it? You want the HW+S bonus? You want to use a Great Weapon? You want to Scout or skirmish? There are always reasons - just depends on the list.


Is the frostblade option really all that good since your vampire lords are so important and yet so fragile?

It's pretty good but it does leave your Lord vulnerable. Again, much like Ghouls and Ghoulkin it is all offense.


Are dire wolves really ever worth it?

Yes. Good for screening Blood Knights, flank guards/redirection, harassing warmachine crews, challenge pit for big nasties, etc, etc..


What is the point of taking a necromancer?

You want a cheap scroll caddy and/or a specific spell? I take one in my lists. They are cheap and you don't mind if they die. Vampires are expensive.

Hope this helps?!

Confuddled
09-30-2009, 09:22 PM
Howdy.


f you complete set up first, you get a +1 to the roll to see if you go first
... …
If you roll a 2 and I roll a 3, we tie due to your +1. When we roll a tie breaker, should your +1 still be in effect or is it just a straight up roll?
Depends – whatever common practice is where you’re at, really. ;)





I'll start with this thought. Why would anyone want to play skeletons or even worse zombies as a tropps choice.


Well…
Zombies
1) Zombies are cheap for holding down/contesting table quarters – each table quarter is worth 100 VP, after all.

2) Zombie stats are weak, but they’re still perfectly effective tarpits – a unit of 20 has 3 ranks and US20, after all – there are very few units that can single-handedly wipe out a full unit of 20 in a single round of combat.

And if you’ve spent the first couple of turns reinforcing the unit with low-level Invocations, they’re even harder to budge.

3) Having a unit of Zombies gives your mages something to do with Invocation of Nehek in early/mid game – especially relevant for low-level (level 1) Vampire casters.

It might not win the game for you outright, but an extra 5 Zombies can mean that the other guy’s big scary Dragon or Bloodthirster is stuck in combat for one more round on turn 5.


Granted, you’d never want an entire army of Zombies, but you’d probably want at least one 20-zombie unit in your army somewhere…


Skeletons
Putting it very roughly, Ghouls are better offensive troops, especially in smaller units.

On the other hand, Skeletons are better defensive units since they can take full command groups and magic banners.




This brings me to my next question, why wouldn't you always run ghouls and take ghoulkin? It's a 25 point upgrade that could effect all of your troop choices. Starting off 8 inches closer to enemy is always a good thing.

Not always.

1) There will be armies (usually melee-oriented armies) where you really do NOT want to get close till mid/late game.

2) Ghoulkin is a 25-point upgrade that cuts into your characters’ Bloodline allowance.

Taking Ghoulkin means that the character in question will only be able to take 1 more Bloodline power (maybe 3 more if you’re giving it to a Vamp Lord).





Is there ever a reason to not mount your vampire heroes on barded steeds unless you plan on flying them out of a unit in order to charge something?

Yup. Points.

1) If you’re fielding a support Vampire (ie a magic-oriented Vamp), your basic movement (6”/12”) is usually enough to keep you out of trouble.

2) If you want a barded steed, that means you’ve got to spend 25 points on the Dreadknight Bloodline power – that means less points to spend on other Bloodlines.

Of course, a compromise would be to simply buy an unbarded nightmare.





Are dire wolves really ever worth it?

Yes - Randroid has already covered most of their uses. Dire Wolves might be dodgy main-line units, but they are excellent support troops.




Is the frostblade option really all that good since your vampire lords are so important and yet so fragile?

Hell no, especially since there are other, really nasty close-combat upgrades available to Vampire Lords (Dreadknight Lords with Red Fury and a Dreadlance being the most common version…).





What is the point of taking a necromancer? There seems to be no reason at all to take one. Even if you just wanted some guy to carry dispel scrolls, couldn't you have a vampire do it and still be a factor in CC?

Again, it’s the point cost.

1) Necromancers are a lot cheaper – this is a GOOD thing


2) The ability to pick and choose spells (ie Vanhel’s Danse Macabre) is nice.


3) Giving a dispel scroll to a Vampire cuts into his magic item allowance.

Kicker is:
a) Vampires (especially Vampire heroes), by themselves, aren’t all THAT scary – T4 W2 is no big deal, after all.

b) Whilst Vampire Lords can be a little more flexible, with their limited point allowances for Bloodlines and magic items, you’d usually do better to have specialised Vampire heroes (ie configure them for close combat OR magic).