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Melissia
10-01-2009, 01:30 PM
It's a very long and involved project I've had going on, on the IGMB, which I can't reproduce here in its entirety simply because it's so large-- 20-ish unit profiles have been finished thus far, including expanded wargear, updated special rules, and so on. It is, to me, what would be an idealized fifth edition Sisters of Battle codex. At its best as a fifth edition codex, albeit it is not yet complete (currently, 21 out of 27 units are complete), including the transport units.

A basic summary:

Costs were slightly raised in some places and lowered in others, with the Seraphim and Repentia taking the biggest hits in prices, Seraphim reduced to 20 per model and repentia... well, they were entirely reworked.
Celestians are slightly increased in price, as are Battle Sisters, but they get more options and wargear to make up for it-- such as frag grenades and bolt pistols. On a related note, Sarissas are reworked as well, and feature prominently in the Celestian unit entry.
Acts of Faith are simplified, but for the most part aren't changed too drastically.
HQ units were completely reworked, to make them more in line with C:SM and C:IG HQ units, and to give the Sisters more options and a slightly deeper fluff.
A couple more tanks were added in to heavy support, and Retributors were given a couple more options. The Leman Russ Vengeance is a more expensive long-ranged anti-tank option to compete with the Exorcist, while the Heirophant Siege Tank is a variant on the siege tanks common in the Imperium-- a short ranged large blast melta weapon. The Exorcist itself has been reworked and given the option for sponsons which increase the number of shots it gets.
Dominians were reworked to be scouts with a mandatory transport, with the option to take either combiweapons or actual special weapons.
Added a troops choice, novitiates, based off of a combination of fluff from the Ciaphas Cain books and the Dark Heresy roleplay, representing those recent graduates of the Schola Progenium whom have not yet earned their place amongst the Battle Sisters.
Added a feature, "Cults", referring to religious cults within the Sisterhood which worship the Emperor in different ways.
The Cult of the Nightflame are (expensive) infiltrators with flame based weaponry.
The Cult of Penitence refers to the Repentia, and have been reworked to be more fluffy and more effective (their scraps of cloth aren't equivalent to carapace armor anymore, for example).
The Cult of the Umbral Cloak (which I haven't added in entirely yet, as I am unsure if I should really add that many units to the codex) is a close combat oriented infiltrator unit.
Cult Squads are limited to 0-1 in normal games, 0-2 in expansions such as planetstrike, and unlimited in apocalypse.
Added more deep striking, infiltrating, and scout outflanking options to give the list more versatility. These units are generally more expensive because of this. Most notably, added in the Adepta Sororitas Dropship, a transport based off of the forgeworld Argus Lander model which has been reworked to be similar to a flying rhino.
Added (adding? These units have not been finished yet) a list of units for the Ecclesiarchy itself, represented by mobs of citizen and zealots, squads of priests and so on.

As I've gotten busy with school and other projects, I'm probably not gonna complete it-- it's really just a mental exercise for myself, to keep my mind busy and so on, and a faint hope that GW employees might read it and maybe take a few ideas from it when they redo the Sisters (C:WH) codex whenever they do get around to it. Comment on it if you want, just tossing it out here.

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=7887

silashand
10-01-2009, 03:46 PM
Just some comments:

1. I know you've stated you like the idea of an IG tank, but I prefer the Rhino chassis myself. Either that or come up with a completely new vehicle. As per the background the Sisters have access to the finest weaponry the Imperium can offer due to the deep coffers of the Ecclesiarchy. Guard tanks do not seem to suit that image IMO. But it's your codex so it's your choice .

2. I think Divine Guidance should be changed to simply grant the unit Rending. Besides being what it does anyway, it keeps things at least somewhat standardized since the ability doesn't provide anything really unique enough to have its own wording. JMO though.

3. I like the cults.

4. Not sure I agree with integrating the Book of Saint Lucius ability into all SoB heroines. Seems a bit powerful IYAM. It's already one of the few no-brainer items in the list.

I haven't finished reading everything so more comments later maybe.

BDub
10-01-2009, 04:03 PM
A nice body of work but seems like blind balancing rather than being thematic to the Sororitas.

I do have to agree with SilasHand on a few points. The Leman Russ just doesn't feel appropriate. I would suggest a vindicator with a perhaps a heavy flamer top gun option.

Why a new flying transport. I can easily see either the new scout speeder or perhaps the full blown Valk. No need to invent anything here, just give Sororitas flavor to an existing option.

It seem like you are really trying to shoehorn in infiltration and outflanking into an army that fluffwise is a march forth and burn kind of force. The exception here would be Cult Assassins, which are absent. I get the feeling that you want a pure Sororitas force but that isn't really fluffy either. Where are the preachers and peasant rabble. I could see them as an outflanking force just because the fire of the emperor can seize a crowd anywhere and anytime with a preacher in their midst.

That's flavor. What I mean is that I don't totally disagree with any of it, just that I think you are sacrificing too much them for the sake of making the list competitive. I do think you can do both, but this doesn't feel like it.

silashand
10-01-2009, 05:29 PM
Just food for thought, the below are some of the original playtest ideas for SoB before they decided to go the WH route. Not sure if you wanted to use any of them, but they were at one time being considered for Codex: Sisters of Battle by the design team:

0-1 CONFESSOR (37 PTS)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Confessor 4 4 3 3 2 4 3 8 -

Options: The Confessor may be given any equipment allowed by the Ministorum Armoury.

SPECIAL RULES

Independant Character: Unless accompanied by his Attendants, the Confessor is an Independent Character and follows the independent character special rules in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Attendants: The Confessor may be accompanied by his attendants, see the separate entry below. The Confessor and his attendants count as a single HQ choice.

Inspirational: A squad led by a Confessor may re-roll any failed morale checks.

0-1 MISSIONARY (42 PTS)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Missionary 4 4 3 3 3 4 3 9 -

Options: The Missionary may be given any equipment allowed by the Ministorum Armoury.

SPECIAL RULES

Independent Character: Unless accompanied by his Attendants, the Missionary is an Independent Character and follows the independent character special rules in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Attendants: The Missionary may be accompanied by his attendants, see the separate entry below. The Missionary and his attendants count as a single HQ choice.

Sacred Rites: A unit led by a Missionary may make a roll on the Sacred Rites table at the beginning of the battle. If the unit could normally take part in the Sacred Rites then there is no additional benefit for being led by a Missionary.

ATTENDANTS (6 PTS/MODEL)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Attendant 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 8 5+
Acolyte 4 3 3 3 1 4 2 8 5+

Attendants: The unit consists of between 5 and 20 Attendants.

Weapons: Lasgun/autogun or laspistol/autopistol and close combat weapon.

Options: Up to one in five Attendants may be armed with one of the following: flamer at +3 pts, plasma gun at +5 pts or a meltagun at +10 pts. The squad may be equipped with frag grenades at an additional cost of +1 point per model and krak grenades at an additional cost of +2 points per model. One model may carry a Penitent Banner for +10 pts. A unit with a Penitent Banner automatically passes the first morale check it is required to take.

Characters: Models in the unit may be upgraded to the following characters, for the points cost listed. No more than one of each character may be included in a squad.

Acolyte +8 pts
Sister Famulous +5 pts
Sister Hospitaller free
Sister Dialogus +15 pts
Imagifer free
Precentor free

These characters may take any equipment allowed by the Ministorum Armoury. Note that a Precentor does not have any special rules, they're just able to take extra weapons and wargear.

Transport Vehicle: If the squad numbers ten or less models, it may be mounted in a Rhino armoured carrier at an additional cost of +45 points.

SPECIAL RULES

The Sisterhood: The Attendants unit may include one or more members of the Sisterhood. The rules for these are as follows.

Sister Famulous - A Sister of one of the Orders Famulous can use her connections with the Imperial nobility to command other Imperial servants to provide her with troops. These are usually Imperial Guardsmen or Planetary Defence Force personnel. For every Sister Famulous in the army you may include one unit chosen from the Imperial Guard army list. This unit does not take any space on the force organisation chart, but otherwise follows all rules that apply to it (including when it can be deployed, etc.). Only one unit may ever be chosen for each Confessor or Missionary, even if you would normally be allowed several units for a single force organisation slot. For example, you can take an Imperial Guard Infantry squad, not a whole platoon. Other than this you are free to choose the type of unit taken.

Sister Hospitaller - In addition to any other weapons or wargear, a Sister Hospitaller may be given a very useful Medicus Ministorum as detailed in the Armoury and Wargear sections.

Sister Dialogus - One of these members of the Sisterhood can use her considerable language skills to translate prayers spoken in High Gothic into other languages, so that they can be understood by those around her. If a unit has a model within 6" of the Sister Dialogus then it may use the Leadership of the Attendants unit for any morale checks or pinning tests it is required to make. Note that this will be the Leadership of the Confessor or Missionary leading the Attendants, unless that character has been killed.

Sacred Rites: The unit may roll on the Sacred Rites table at the start of the battle.

INVOCATOR (?? PTS)

Armour Front Side Rear BS
Invocator 11 11 10 3

Type: Tank, open-topped

Crew: Attendants

Weapons: The Invocator is armed with a turret-mounted plasma cannon.

Options: The Invocator may be upgraded with two side sponsons armed with the following weapons: autocannon at +10pts; heavy bolter at +5 points. The Invocator may be given the following vehicle upgrades at the costs listed in the Ministorum Armoury: dozer blade, extra armour, hunter-killer missile, searchlight, smoke launchers.

SPECIAL RULES

Blaring Prayers: The voice of the Confessor aboard the Invocator is projected across the battlefield by a number of powerful speakers, instilling blinding hatred in the Emperor's servants. Any friendly unit with a model within 6" of the Invocator may re-roll any missed to hit rolls in an assault.

MARTYRS (25pts /model)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Martyr 4 3 3 3 1 3 2 10 5+

Squad: You may include up to 5 Martyrs as a single Elites choice.

Weapons: Laspistol/autopistol and close combat weapon.

SPECIAL RULES

Individuals: Martyrs fight as individual models and can never join a unit. All Martyrs from one selection on the force organisation chart must be deployed at the same time (though they may be deployed in different places).

Fearless: Martyrs want nothing more than to die in the service of the Emperor. For this reason they will gladly fight against even the most horrifying of foes. Martyrs never fall back, and are automatically assumed to pass any morale checks they are required to make (even against attacks that do not normally allow morale checks to be taken). In addition, Martyrs cannot be pinned.

Suicidal Bombers: Martyrs wear a special harness fitted with high explosives and willingly throw themselves at the enemy before setting them off in a massive detonation. At the start of any assault phase (including the opponent's turn) the Martyr may set off his bomb harness. This is done after any models have charged into an assault, but before any attacks are made. Centre the large blast marker over the Martyr. Any model (friend or foe) touched by the template is hit by flying bone and shrapnel on a D6 roll of 4+. Models hit take a Strength 4 hit with no Armour Piercing value. Any unit taking casualties from a Martyr must take a morale check immediately. Against vehicles the Martyr will usually throw themselves under neath its wheels or tracks (or cling onto its engines in the case of a skimmer) before pulling the pin. An exploding Martyr inflicts an automatic melta-bomb hit if attacking a vehicle. For obvious reasons, a Martyr who sets off his bomb harness is killed (with no saving throw… ) and the model is removed! If the martyr is killed there is a chance the bomb harness will be set off (either by the attack or by the Martyr with their dying breath!) If the Martyr is killed in an assault, the bomb harness explodes on a 4, 5 or 6. If the Martyr is killed by a ranged attack then the bombs detonate on a roll of 6. The bombs explode as detailed above.

FRATERIS MILITIA (3pts /model)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Militia 2 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 -

Squad: The squad consists of between 10 and 50 Militia.

Weapons: Close combat weapon.

Options: Any model may be given a laspistol/autopistol for +1 point or a lasgun/autogun for +2 pts. Up to one model in five may be given one of the following weapons; plasma gun at +??pts, melta-gun at +??pts, flamer at +??pts, heavy bolter at +??pts, heavy stubber at +??pts or an autocannon at +??pts. One model may carry a Penitent Banner for +5pts. A unit with a Penitent Banner automatically passes the first morale check it is required to take.

HERETICS (10 pts +3 pts /model)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Militia 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 7 -
Preacher 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 -

Squad: The squad consists of a Preacher and between 10 and 20 Heretics.

Weapons: Fists and chains (counts as close combat weapon).

Options: Any model may be given an additional close combat weapon for +1 pt. The Preacher may be given any equipment allowed by the Ministorum army list.

SPECIAL RULES

Non-believers: The Preacher may not lead the Heretics in the Sacred Rites. The Emperor's Justice: If the Heretics ever fall back, then they will be summarily killed by the Preacher. This happens at the end of their fall back move and the heretic models are removed immediately. The Preacher will automatically regroup at the start of his next turn and must move as quickly as possible towards the nearest friendly unit, who he will join when he gets within 2" of a model in the unit. Note that this may be a unit that already has a Preacher in it.

FLAGELLANT (6 pts /model)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Flagellant 4 2 4 3 1 3 2 8 -

Squad: The squad consists of between 5 and 20 Flagellants.

Weapons: 2 close combat weapons.

Options: Any model may exchange their weapons for a flail. A model with a flail strikes at -1 Initiative but +2 Strength.

SPECIAL RULES

Fearless: Flagellants are resigned to their impending doom and therefore have no fears of what the universe may hold. A unit of Flagellants never falls back, and is automatically assumed to pass any morale checks they are required to make (even against attacks that do not normally allow morale checks to be taken). In addition, Flagellants cannot be pinned.

MOUNTED MILITIA (5 pts /model)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
Militia 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 8 3+
Squad: The squad consists of between 10 and 30 Militia.

Weapons: Close combat weapon.

Options: Any model may be given a laspistol/autopistol for +1 point or a lasgun/autogun for +2 pts. One model may carry a Penitent Banner for +5pts. A unit with a Penitent Banner automatically passes the first morale check it is required to take.

SPECIAL RULES

Cavalry: Mounted Militia are cavalry and follow the rules for cavalry given in Warhammer 40,000.

Melissia
10-01-2009, 05:49 PM
1. I know you've stated you like the idea of an IG tank, but I prefer the Rhino chassis myself. Either that or come up with a completely new vehicle. As per the background the Sisters have access to the finest weaponry the Imperium can offer due to the deep coffers of the Ecclesiarchy. Guard tanks do not seem to suit that image IMO. But it's your codex so it's your choice .
Rhinos would basically make it into a predator clone. Sisters already had an overpriced Razorback clone in the form of the Immolator, which I worked to try and differentiate from the Razorback.

As for creating a new chassis altogether, that itself is a bit questionable to me. The Ecclesiarchy has great funding, but I don't see how they could claim a unique and viable chassis for themselves without earning even more ire from the Mechanicus, which the Ecclesiarchy relies upon for maintenance just like everyone else? A variant of a Leman Russ is more reasonable than that I think.

The Exorcist is a fast and mobile vehicle, while the Leman Russ is a front line tank. The Sisters participate in both kinds of combat.


2. I think Divine Guidance should be changed to simply grant the unit Rending. Besides being what it does anyway, it keeps things at least somewhat standardized since the ability doesn't provide anything really unique enough to have its own wording. JMO though.
Rending is possibly too much. It would allow bolter rounds to glance predators and penetrate chimeras (S4, +6 pen, +3 rending, = 13 penetration total). And it'd let heavy flamers glance land raiders, which seems a bit... odd?


4. Not sure I agree with integrating the Book of Saint Lucius ability into all SoB heroines. Seems a bit powerful IYAM. It's already one of the few no-brainer items in the list.
The fact that it's already a no-brainer is precisely why I integrated it. I increased the base price of the squads to compensate for it.



I do have to agree with SilasHand on a few points. The Leman Russ just doesn't feel appropriate. I would suggest a vindicator with a perhaps a heavy flamer top gun option.
The vindicator would be unable to compete with the Exorcist.


Why a new flying transport. I can easily see either the new scout speeder or perhaps the full blown Valk. No need to invent anything here, just give Sororitas flavor to an existing option.I didn't invent anything. See the following link:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/arvusl.htm


It seem like you are really trying to shoehorn in infiltration and outflanking into an army that fluffwise is a march forth and burn kind of force. The exception here would be Cult Assassins, which are absent. I get the feeling that you want a pure Sororitas force but that isn't really fluffy either. Where are the preachers and peasant rabble. I could see them as an outflanking force just because the fire of the emperor can seize a crowd anywhere and anytime with a preacher in their midst.
Actually, that's why I added in the Cult features. They are rare amongst the Sororitas and often mistrusted. In some more orthodox Orders, they might even be persecuted for their differing ways.

Also, pure Sororitas forces are quite fluffy-- I don't understand where you get the idea that they are not.


That's flavor. What I mean is that I don't totally disagree with any of it, just that I think you are sacrificing too much them for the sake of making the list competitive. I do think you can do both, but this doesn't feel like it.
I don't see why you claim it lacks flavor. I'm just giving it a slightly different KIND of flavor. They remain the paladin-knights of the Imperium, holy warriors whom fight in the Emperor's name. They just do so with a slightly more military flare. At the moment the Sisters, in the fluff, seem to be depicted as inept and unable to really take advantage of their strengths the majority of the time.

So I ask:

Why should the heretic be given any warning that the holy warriors approach?
Why should the heretic have the honor of facing the holy warriors of the Emperor face to face?
Why should the holy warriors fight the enemy on only one front?
Why should the holy warriors neglect the Emperor-given cover of darkness?
Why should the holy warriors disdain surprise attacks?

The enemies of the Imperium of Man are not worthy of such considerations. Disdain for one's enemies is not unfluffy for the Sisters.

Commissar Lewis
10-01-2009, 07:43 PM
Looks good, Mel. Liking the sniping heavy bolter and the ability to give a canoness two pistols.

You get the Von Lewis seal of approval!

Craz
10-01-2009, 08:18 PM
I love what you're doing with this, Melissia. At first, I was a bit skeptic, but as soon as you mentioned the Marian Reforms being inspiration for a more militarized Sister of Battle codex, I found that I would honestly pick up the army if this was the new 5th Ed codex.

Exitus Acta Probat
10-01-2009, 08:41 PM
Thank you for sharing.
I laud you for your effort, and the energy put into an oft overlooked and underestimated army.
With external and extensive playtesting for balance and values, this could be quite fun.

and also, thank you for the mocking dry humour elsewhere! :)

DarkLink
10-01-2009, 09:36 PM
I like it. You did a great job of streamlining the rules. I particularly like how you turned the BoSL into a army special rule. It really makes a lot of sense. The Book is so good that it is a no-brainer upgrade everyone will take anyways, unless you raised the points on it so much it became worthless.



I like how there's a lot of homebrewed rules popping up lately. BoLS should create a dedicated 40k houserules section for these things (not many people visit the current houserules section), then when the community has gotten stuff far enough along turn the rules into a releasable ruleset.

Sitnam
10-02-2009, 12:06 AM
I quite like many of the ideas you have. I haven't had time to read them all, but LOVE the Dominions reformation. Actually made them useful now! I cant wait to see your ideas for Arco's and Penitent Engines. I do disagree with your stance on the Inquisition not being included (The SOB are the chamber militiant of the Ordo Hereticus.) But its your codex and you worked hard, so no arguments for a little tidbit such as that. I do like how the codex isn't just Soritas however, but all parts of Ecclesiastical military strength.

Oh, and I don't know if you've brainstormed it yet, but I've always felt PE's could be much more unique as cheap Monstrous Creatures. No other Imperial army has MC's, so that adds to the flavor.



I like how there's a lot of homebrewed rules popping up lately. BoLS should create a dedicated 40k houserules section for these things (not many people visit the current houserules section), then when the community has gotten stuff far enough along turn the rules into a releasable ruleset.

Oh wow, I was about to start a thread similar to this, but more along the lines of getting a group of lounge posters to start a home brew codex project. If our own parent blog can write several great supplements, why can't their ever so loyal fans?

jeffersonian000
10-02-2009, 04:19 AM
Seems like a great start. Not sure what I could add, though. I have been browsing through my 2nd ed SoB codex recently, and its made me nostalgic for how Sisters use to run. Your 'Dex has that feel. Keep up the good work. Melissia!

SJ

Melissia
10-02-2009, 06:31 AM
That's actually an interesting idea Sitnam, I'll consider it when I get back into building the codex.

Sitnam
10-02-2009, 09:24 AM
That's actually an interesting idea Sitnam, I'll consider it when I get back into building the codex.

Cant wait! Keep up the good work.

Aegis
10-02-2009, 02:53 PM
Promising start. The points feel well balanced (though, I have some friends who would argue against the Seraphim getting a points reduction). I, too, mourn the lose of the Inquisition in your vision, but I also expect that to happen, given GW's stance as the Inquisition being the flavour of the month when C:WH came out.

Melissia
10-02-2009, 08:50 PM
More than that, I WANT it to happen. If the Inquisition is to exist, to me, they should exist as a minidex which can be added to any Imperium of Man army, rather than existing in any other army's codex.

I hate the fact that GW crammed the god[bleep]ed inquisition into the Sisters codex.

Sitnam
10-02-2009, 10:18 PM
I hate the fact that GW crammed the god[bleep]ed inquisition into the Sisters codex.

Crammed? It was three unit entries. That is not cramming by any means. I actually take the opposite stance. Sisters of Battle are a part of the Inquisition. Just like the Deathwatch, and just like the Grey Knights. As such the Ordo Hereticus belongs in there, because the Sisters of Battle serve as the military arm of not only the Ecclesiarchy, but they also serve the call of the OH.

Melissia
10-02-2009, 10:43 PM
Crammed? It was three unit entries. That is not cramming by any means. I actually take the opposite stance. Sisters of Battle are a part of the Inquisition. Just like the Deathwatch, and just like the Grey Knights. As such the Ordo Hereticus belongs in there, because the Sisters of Battle serve as the military arm of not only the Ecclesiarchy, but they also serve the call of the OH.

Inquisitor Lords
Inquisitors
4 kinds of Assassins
Death Cultists
Inquisitorial Stormtroopers

I count eight units. None of which are any good mind you, so it's understandable if you don't realize just how many craptacular Inquisitorial units there are in the codex.

Aegis
10-03-2009, 12:16 AM
None of which are any good? Take another look at some of those. I have had assassins rip through half an army before (Marines, mind you). The Callidus and Death Cult assassins are worth their weight in gold, if even just disrupting the flow of an enemy player.

I will, however, grant you the storm troopers and elite inquisitor... Those ones, not so much on the worth it side.

DarkLink
10-03-2009, 12:20 AM
More than that, I WANT it to happen. If the Inquisition is to exist, to me, they should exist as a minidex which can be added to any Imperium of Man army, rather than existing in any other army's codex.

I hate the fact that GW crammed the god[bleep]ed inquisition into the Sisters codex.

I can't agree more. Inquisitors are like detectives (albeit violent ones) that track down whatever they're looking for. If they need a military force to accomplish an objective, they call in the IG, SM's, Sisters or Grey Knights, depending on the situation.

Though inquisitors may sometimes accompany these forces, the Inquisition itself doesn't really have a military force. The IG, SM's, Sisters and Grey Knights are their military forces.

Sitnam
10-03-2009, 01:47 AM
Inquisitor Lords
Inquisitors
4 kinds of Assassins
Death Cultists
Inquisitorial Stormtroopers

I count eight units. None of which are any good mind you, so it's understandable if you don't realize just how many craptacular Inquisitorial units there are in the codex.

I counted the Inquisitors together and the assasins. Which makes three. And why does it matter if these units are craptacular? You don't have to take them, and they are much more fluffy then you pretend they aren't. The Inquisition should not be rolled into a little minidex because each Ordo of the Inquisition is unique in and of itself, and the best way to depict them is with their Chamber Militiant.


the Inquisition itself doesn't really have a military force

Yes they do. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chamber_Militant) In fact they have three military forces. The Imperial Guard are not Inquisitorial forces, they are under the Departmento Munitorum, and as such Inquisitors have to requisition them. And Space Marines of all people are not Inquisitorial forces. The Red Scorpions, a codex loyalist chapter, up and left an Inquisitor to die after he snuffed them on Beta Anphelion IV. The Inquisition can request their services, but they can't push them around. That is part of the reason why the Ordo's have their own small military force. The other part is because they need dedicated brands of troops for taking on the specific threat each Ordo faces. Hence why the Hereticus is combined with the Soritas: Both organizations work to kill traitors and heretics.

Melissia
10-03-2009, 06:45 AM
Combining those choices is like saying that the Guard infantry platoon is only one unit (even though it's actually around five units-- PCS, Infantry, Heavy Weapons, Special weapons, Conscripts).


In the case of the Sisters, the only connection they have with the Ordo Hereticus is an agreement to assist them if asked. An entirely unnecessary agreement, given that the Inquisition has authority over them anyway, just like they do the Guard and indeed some aspects of the Marines (yes, Marine chapters obey the Inquisition far more often than disobey, at least the ones that know what's good for them and that don't want to end up destroyed, decimated, or excommunicated), but that's what they have. The Sisters of Battle are, and have always been, the army of the Imperial Church of the Confederation of Light (not to be confused with the older church, the Temple of the Savior Emperor).

Elliott
10-03-2009, 12:28 PM
Melissia, is there any plan to try to make this a PDF, la BoLS' minidexs?

Sitnam
10-03-2009, 01:10 PM
Combining those choices is like saying that the Guard infantry platoon is only one unit (even though it's actually around five units-- PCS, Infantry, Heavy Weapons, Special weapons, Conscripts).
That is true, but in my mind the Inquisitor Lord and Inquisitor are just about the same, and since only one assassin is allowed at a time I thought it was a moot point.




In the case of the Sisters, the only connection they have with the Ordo Hereticus is an agreement to assist them if asked. An entirely unnecessary agreement, given that the Inquisition has authority over them anyway, just like they do the Guard and indeed some aspects of the Marines I would far from say that agreement was unnecessary. What the agreement does is it lowers the complications in requesting Sisters forces. The Imperium, being the big hulking machine of inefficiency as it is, just cant have Inquisitors pulling Guard units way from their duties. Since the Soritas are admittedly part of the Imperial church, Inquisitors could face the same political ramifications as they could with the Departo Munitorum if they just pulled Sisters from their duties. Inquisitors do have unlimited power, but they do face consequences. That agreement gives Inquisitors a scape goat for any blame that comes from misusing Soritas. And it guarantees the Hereticus their own dedicated force of anti-heretic troops. The needs of the Inquistion often calls for specialized troops such as the sisters. Just as the Deathwatch can kill xenos


indeed some aspects of the Marines (yes, Marine chapters obey the Inquisition far more often than disobey, at least the ones that know what's good for them and that don't want to end up destroyed, decimated, or excommunicated), but that's what they have. But Marines do that because they want to do it. That does not equal the Inquisition having authority over Space Marines. Indeed, chapters like the Space Wolves, Black Templars, and Blood Angels all go against many edicts of the Codex Astartes . The Inquistion has had plently of time to leverage their power against them. But since they are loyalist space marines, the political ramifications of declaring a completely loyalist chapter traitor make it not worth the effort.

Furthermore, the biggest reason Sisters and Hereticus work together is that they have the same goals. They both seek to kill the heretical and the rebellious of the Imperium. They are connected both due to agreement and due to their mission needs.

And honestly, how does it harm you if the Inquistion is in the codex? Sisters make up most of the playable part of the army, whilst the Inquisitorial forces in the codex can be used to supplement your force. The only thing that does happen if GW takes Inquisitors out is they hurt those players who want to represent a Ordo Hereticus force. A minidex will not work because the Inquisition, once you take away their Chamber Militiants, can never be a stand alone force. And if a minidex is created, it will make the Inquisition bland. Right now the WH and DH Inquisitors are similar, but they do have a unique abilities. GW does not have much of an interest in putting out a free supplement, and I doubt they'd put much effort in making the different Ordo's of Inquistion unique in such a minidex. So, in your desire to cleanse the Inquistion from your scared Sisters codex (which does not harm you in any way), you create the possibility of screweing With Hunters players who have the same amusement from Inquisitors as you do for Sisters.

Sitnam
10-03-2009, 02:14 PM
You know Melissia, i have been in too many mundane internet arguments to know that our bikcering will be going anywhere. As such, I would like to offer you a proposition: I, either working alone or with anybody else who wants to help, will make the Inquisition minidex that you have been talking about. I myself don't believe the Inquisition will remain fluffy if seperated from their Chamber Militiant. But argument without action is unproductive. I stand by my opinion that Adepta Soritas in integral to a Ordo Hereticus force. But after doing some brainstorming, I have realized a few things:

1. The Chamber Militiant can still be tied in with their Inquisitorial Ordo if they were seperated. This can be done by giving bonus' to Chamber Militiant forces who have an Inquisitor of their corresponding Ordo attached to them.

2. Inquisitors can also be better represented by having a much more advanced retinue system. If they aren't confined to the limits of a codex, which can only be so many pages long, then retinues can be made better by having more detail.

3. Assassins and IST's can also be better modified. Since the IST's won't have to mesh with forces from three different Ordo's, a minidex can make them as strong as they should be in the fluff.

So, what do you think? Oh and I am sorry for seemingly hijacking your thread for your homebrew. I hate going off-topic with such arguments I still stand by my opinion that you have done a great job with the homebrew.

Melissia
10-03-2009, 05:30 PM
Explaining your opinion on the subject does not make it reasonable to me or make it sway my own opinion. In the end, I don't really care what your opinion on the subject is. The Sisters are the army of the Imperial Church first and foremost. Their mutual assistance agreement with the Inquisition is irrelevant to me, and in fact I would retcon even that were I in charge of the codex, because it should never have been added in in the first place.

Sitnam
10-03-2009, 05:35 PM
Explaining your opinion on the subject does not make it reasonable to me or make it sway my own opinion. In the end, I don't really care what your opinion on the subject is. The Sisters are the army of the Imperial Church first and foremost. Their mutual assistance agreement with the Inquisition is irrelevant to me, and in fact I would retcon even that were I in charge of the codex, because it should never have been added in in the first place.

Fine. I was making an offer to explore YOUR OWN SUGGESTION on a Inquisition minidex instead of bantering ravenously. Point is, the Inquisition has not been retconned and as you are not part of GW, you have no say in retconning them. I have offered evidence that the Sisters ARE aprt of the Hereticus, and yet you clearly do not care with the current fluff. What you want is irrelevant because until GW makes a decision to or to not retcon the Innquisition, that is what we use to argue for a Sisters codex.

Melissia
10-03-2009, 07:29 PM
If I had to follow only what GW was doing with things, then I'd not be making this project in the first place.

So your objection is completely, utterly, and entirely moot.

As for your offer to explore the inquisition minidex? Knock yourself out. I don't give a care. I do not, nor have I ever, played an Inquisition army. I don't like the Inquisition as an army, they aren't an army, they use everyone else's armies. The Inquisition is an investigative body with a large amount of power-- having the Inquisition as an army is like having the CIA as an army (only, of course, souped up to the 40K level of power that a CIA-esque organization might have). Are you also going to berate me for not wanting to add Guard and Marines to this dex, even though Sisters also occasionally work side by side with those two as well?

To repeat myself: this particular homebrew codex is a homebrewed SISTERS OF BATTLE codex. Not an Inquisition codex. If that offends you, I make no apologies.

DarkLink
10-04-2009, 12:45 AM
Either way, this is a homebrew thing anyways. If you want to include the Inquisition in the Sisters 'dex, go ahead and toss in your own rules.

I frankly feel the same as Melissa as to how the Inquisition operates, though Inquisitors themselves going into battle is common enough in fluff that I think they themselves should be included, along with Stormtroopers (hey, if an inquisitor goes to battle, he'll probably take his highly trained operatives with him). But the ones who do the heavy lifting in combat are the Sisters, Grey Knights and the Deathwatch. Or any conveniently located IG or SM Chapters. Whatever works. I just don't care for all the crazy odd Inquisitor units, and am not that big of a fan of Inquisitors themselves, as they don't feel like something that belongs on the frontlines of a battle.

Sitnam
10-04-2009, 12:54 AM
Edited

Melissia
10-04-2009, 07:47 AM
Sorry for offending you I guess? I've never claimed to be anything other than extremely opinionated.

Sitnam
10-04-2009, 01:47 PM
Sorry for offending you I guess? I've never claimed to be anything other than extremely opinionated.

Oh no, you never offended me. I just practically said the same thing in my last post that I did in my previous ones, so it seemed a moot point. Plus, like I said again, it was thread hijacking. The only thing that really confuses me is why you seemed to be hostile to the idea of the minidex. I wasn't trying to take way from your ideas at all, I actually quite like them (Especially your Dominions, my favorite Sister unit) , I instead wanted to try your way out. I have made homebrew rules for Inquisitors before (Until those files got erased =( ), so I had a interest anyway,

Melissia
10-04-2009, 04:34 PM
Oh no, you never offended me. I just practically said the same thing in my last post that I did in my previous ones, so it seemed a moot point. Plus, like I said again, it was thread hijacking. The only thing that really confuses me is why you seemed to be hostile to the idea of the minidex. I wasn't trying to take way from your ideas at all, I actually quite like them (Especially your Dominions, my favorite Sister unit) , I instead wanted to try your way out. I have made homebrew rules for Inquisitors before (Until those files got erased =( ), so I had a interest anyway,

I'm not hostile to an Inquisition minidex. I just don't care about it. At all. I'd be completely and utterly fine with Inquisitors going the way of the S_____ and being removed from tabletop 40K, only existing in the fluff background of 40k just as the S_____ do. If I can be said to be hostile to anything that's gone on in this thread, it would be that I'm hostile to people arguing that the Sisters are in fact a part of the Inquisition . To me, they never were. At MOST, I would say they work alongside the Inquistion. The only difference between the relationship with Marines and Guard and the relationship with the Inquisition is that they have a previously written agreement to assist them because of mutual interests. We do not have a copy of the Convocation of Nephilim, but my interpretation is pretty much how it's worded in C:WH.

If that sounds harsh or hostile... sorry? I never really intended for it to be hostile. So... apologies if it was too much. I don't aim to actively be that way.

With that said, I added in a discussion for a new unit, which is being discussed on that board. The Conflagrator.

Sitnam
10-04-2009, 06:51 PM
I can be said to be hostile to anything that's gone on in this thread, it would be that I'm hostile to people arguing that the Sisters are in fact a part of the Inquisition . To me, they never were.


Lol. Well, until we get updates from GW, I guess we can agree to disagree as the issue just doesn't seem entirely clear. You must understand, my first codex was in fact the 3rd edition witch hunters, while I'm guessing you have been around longer. So I think a large part of this argument is we come from different generations, so you are used to (or prefer) them being separate and I'm used to them being together.

The conflagator seems a little redundant to me. If I played with that codex, I'd just take dominion squads with Immolator transports to get just about the same job done and save a slot. Having the repressor in the codex also seems redundant, as it doesn't really fill a role the Rhino and Immolator don't fill. Maybe a update on the represoor would work to fix that.

Aegis
10-04-2009, 08:34 PM
Part of the problem with the Inquisition, as I see it, is that unlike the other ordos, which do have strong connections, if not actual ties, to a chamber militant, the Ordo Hereticus has more of a working arrangement. In that sense, Melissa seems absolutely right when she states they are not one in the same organization (to which I agree completely). What has happened, and the fluff does back this up, is that the Ordo Hereticus and the Sisters relationship has become so interwoven with each other, that from an outside perspective, they can appear as a single organization.

The reality is that there is a very, very complex inter-relation occurring here, in which the fluff seems to back up, that the Sisters and Ordo Hereticus have, for lack of a better term, exclusivity rights. They live in common law, sharing a lot of the benefits, but not tying the knot, as it were. As such Melissa's Inquisition-less codex works fine, and that is one of the marvelous things about the Sisters. They are an autonomous unit, with a working history with the Inquisition. It is not the other way around.

Having said all that, to be honest, part of the reason I love the sisters so much is the relationship with the Inquisitors. I feel like they have a much deeper fluff and history because of that connection than without. Does not make my opinion or view more valid than any others, simply different.

Saying such, Sitnam, I would love to see what you come up with for a minidex for the Inquisition, and Melissa, I would love to see you continue your work on the Sisters. Hell, I am trying to convince my gaming buddy to let me try and playtest some of your suggestions, and see how they pan out.

Cheers!

Scoota
10-04-2009, 08:48 PM
As such, I would like to offer you a proposition: I, either working alone or with anybody else who wants to help, will make the Inquisition minidex that you have been talking about.

Sitnam - if you're looking for somebody else to chip in with a homebrew Inquisition dex, I'd be happy to help out.

Sitnam
10-04-2009, 10:31 PM
Sitnam - if you're looking for somebody else to chip in with a homebrew Inquisition dex, I'd be happy to help out. I'll pm you with details



Having said all that, to be honest, part of the reason I love the sisters so much is the relationship with the Inquisitors. I feel like they have a much deeper fluff and history because of that connection than without. Does not make my opinion or view more valid than any others, simply different. I think it is the same thing with me, although I completely agree with you and Melissia that their relationship is not as solid as the chamber militiant as the other Ordo's. However, I reread the WH codex and it does state pretty much what you said in that the Hereticus and SOB 'working seamlessly together'

Melissia
10-05-2009, 06:39 AM
Having the repressor in the codex also seems redundant, as it doesn't really fill a role the Rhino and Immolator don't fill. Maybe a update on the repressor would work to fix that.

Repressor has a 10 model capacity and a single heavy flamer.
Immolator has a 6 model capacity and a twin-linked weapon.

Repressor has a heavy flamer and slots for bolters to fire out of (and one fire point)
Rhino has a storm bolter and a fire point (which two can fire out of).

The Immolator cannot be taken by Battle Sisters because of this, for example. An army that uses Repressors rather than Immolators will have a larger infantry presence, but have less vehicle-based punch. An army that uses Rhinos will have more points to spend upgrading vehicles/squads, but their transports will have less of a punch.

Sitnam
10-05-2009, 10:46 AM
OH, I see it now. Plus, I skimmed over the fact that Immolators aren't availbable to regular Battle Sisters. I do have another question: Are your rules for blessed ammunition the same as Codex: WH?

Melissia
10-05-2009, 10:48 AM
Yes. Ignores cover saves.

Nabterayl
10-05-2009, 02:18 PM
The reality is that there is a very, very complex inter-relation occurring here, in which the fluff seems to back up, that the Sisters and Ordo Hereticus have, for lack of a better term, exclusivity rights. They live in common law, sharing a lot of the benefits, but not tying the knot, as it were. As such Melissa's Inquisition-less codex works fine, and that is one of the marvelous things about the Sisters. They are an autonomous unit, with a working history with the Inquisition. It is not the other way around.

Seconded. You can't really have a Codex: Witch Hunters without Ecclesiarchical and Sororitas units because there wouldn't be anything to include - just inquisitors, assassins, and Inquisitorial storm troopers. The other units are appropriate for inclusion in C:WH because if an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor has reason to go to battle (i.e., to be on a 40K tabletop) those are his or her go-to sources for troops beyond his or her own personal resources (i.e., house storm troopers and assassins). But if a canoness goes to battle, she doesn't necessarily do so in the company of an inquisitor or Ecclesiarchical troops.

Aegis
10-05-2009, 09:22 PM
Seconded. You can't really have a Codex: Witch Hunters without Ecclesiarchical and Sororitas units because there wouldn't be anything to include - just inquisitors, assassins, and Inquisitorial storm troopers. The other units are appropriate for inclusion in C:WH because if an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor has reason to go to battle (i.e., to be on a 40K tabletop) those are his or her go-to sources for troops beyond his or her own personal resources (i.e., house storm troopers and assassins). But if a canoness goes to battle, she doesn't necessarily do so in the company of an inquisitor or Ecclesiarchical troops.

And that is likely why the Soritas was a much more dominant aspect of the C:WH.

Now, got a question for Melissa. I have not had the time to fully read over the linked thread for your homebrew, but I was curious how you tackled, or intend to tackle, the tank busting abilities for the sisters. I realize now they have access to lots of melta, and the Exorcist, but unlike a lot of other armies, they do not seem to have a true, dedicated unit for that.

Melissia
10-06-2009, 06:21 AM
And that is likely why the Soritas was a much more dominant aspect of the C:WH.

Now, got a question for Melissa. I have not had the time to fully read over the linked thread for your homebrew, but I was curious how you tackled, or intend to tackle, the tank busting abilities for the sisters. I realize now they have access to lots of melta, and the Exorcist, but unlike a lot of other armies, they do not seem to have a true, dedicated unit for that.

There's several things.


1: Leman Russ Vengeance
2: A sponson upgrade for the Exorcist
3: Outflanking Dominians with lots of meltaguns/combimeltas
4: Soon to be useful, the Penitent Engine (working on it today)
5: Repentia, whom should now be much better suited for... any role period
6: Retributors have gained two new weapons, both of which can be used in the anti-tank role

This, plus all the meltas, means there's plenty of choices.

Aegis
10-06-2009, 10:19 AM
There's several things.


1: Leman Russ Vengeance
2: A sponson upgrade for the Exorcist
3: Outflanking Dominians with lots of meltaguns/combimeltas
4: Soon to be useful, the Penitent Engine (working on it today)
5: Repentia, whom should now be much better suited for... any role period
6: Retributors have gained two new weapons, both of which can be used in the anti-tank role

This, plus all the meltas, means there's plenty of choices.
That is good to hear. One thing I dread with the current book is my IG buddy putting down a ton of armour. You can only crack so much with Exorcist shots and short range melta...

Melissia
10-06-2009, 11:45 AM
In the current dex, I try and solve that with a good number of Seraphim, but there's really only so much that that unit can do. You really need them for other reasons, too...

Sitnam
10-06-2009, 01:04 PM
In the current dex, I try and solve that with a good number of Seraphim, but there's really only so much that that unit can do. You really need them for other reasons, too...

Although in your dex, they still are an attractive AT option. Meltabombs, eviscerator, inferno pistols.

Anyways, on PE's: While I do think they should rank as MC's, I don't think it needs to be said that they should be weaker physically then a carnifex or greater demon. That's just my opinion, I just think they should operate as a swarm of MC's, not as strong but cheaper and more numerous. Perhaps the Karamazov statline is a good place for inspiration?

Aegis
10-06-2009, 02:30 PM
Personally, I would like to see the 'Squadron' tag removed from penitent engines (Which, can be done in conjunction with making them MC's). As is, I find they are great units, when they can make it to their destination. However, being open topped, and in a squadron, their odds of surviving to assault is incredibly slim.


I mean, let us look at it. In a squadron, 3/6 possibilities on the chart kill a model in a squadron. Add in the +1 you get for damaging an open topped vehicle. All of a sudden, you only have two possible outcomes on the damage chart that do not result in a dead engine.

As far as tank hunting Seraphim go, I love them. Problem in my case is that my gaming friends know my tricks these days with them, so I cannot always rely on them. Though, I have been finding good success with an attached Canoness with an eviscerator splintering off and causing some havoc...

Melissia
10-06-2009, 03:14 PM
I would have to anyway. Squadron is a vehicle-only thing, while MCs have toughness, armor save, etc values.