Which Characters are Broken?

[Bigred]

So as I'm getting deeper and deeper into WFB, I've noticed that there is a lot of grousing over the power levels of various characters and how some should never be allowed in tourneys.

Who do you think are the real culprits and why? Also, if you could, what is the list of characters who need to be reined in for competitive play?

[plastic.legions]

In order to be fair to everyone, Special Characters are simply not allowed in competitive play in most of the good RTT/GT style events here in the mid-west..this was relaxed when Adepticon became part of the GW circuit and comp scoring was ramped up to compensate creating its own unique set of problems. Overall special characters in WFB are there to support to the fluff and are generally undercosted compared to their non named counterparts...trying to selectively ban certain characters (like just banning DoC SC's) will only cause it's own problems. Simply not allowing Lord level specials or Special or "named characters" at all in tournaments is the way to go, doing so also minimizes the necessity for extensive scored composition. Alot of times its not the SC's themselves that are the issue but full "SC Lord + 3 heros" in combination that make it way OTT it really depends on the book, getting rid of them all in Competitive events is the fairest/ best medicine.

[Aldramelech]

I don't like Specials, never have. Any club I have ever been a member of has always considered the use of them as bad form. Local tournaments ban them. Now you can argue that you can make up your own, but I would disagree. Most have unique abilities or gear that is otherwise unavailable to your made up character.

The Culprits? All of them in my opinion.

I really believe that specials are a way for GW to charge more for a model.

[Lord Azaghul]

I started playing wfb before 40k, and when I started special characters were practically taboo, so consequently I have a hard time even considering them in 40k.

I think special characters are mainly for those who lack the ability to play competitively in either there own skill or army (ie not playing a power army). The other side of it is that I prefer to make my own character, legally within the already created frame work. IE my dwarf lord is build using the legal limit on runes, others may have the same combos, but to me, he is my lord - thus my army. As far as specials go, I don't want to play what gw builds, because they aren't my characters - there gw's characters!

I believe this developed out of the idea what was was in the army book was already built to be balanced and fair, and what was in the special characters section was intentially overkill, even in the power armies in fantasy (DE, VC, DoC) the special characters are still over the top even for those armies.

Bottom line - gw doesn't want you to make the game you own - they want you to play the game(s) how they want it to be played!

[Aldramelech]

Agreed. Wouldn't dream of using 40k ones either.....

[brominated]

My experience with my Lizard special characters is that their cost is absolutely prohibitive to what they offer. Yes, Kroak and Mazdamundi are ridiculously powerful, but at 600+ points they just aren't worth it. Even the hero level characters are still way overpriced. 325 for Chakax is astronomical for a hero.

[plastic.legions]

My experience with my Lizard special characters is that their cost is absolutely prohibitive to what they offer. Yes, Kroak and Mazdamundi are ridiculously powerful, but at 600+ points they just aren't worth it. Even the hero level characters are still way overpriced. 325 for Chakax is astronomical for a hero.

That's a great example of the unevenness of SC's across the board Chakax is 325 (actually 335 I think) while Skulltaker is 150!!..etc..

[nathaniel]

Bottom line - gw doesn't want you to make the game you own - they want you to play the game(s) how they want it to be played![/QUOTE]


I dont think GW are trying to control the way we play by giving rules for special characters. the books are designed to encourage us to create our own lords and heroes. Many players including myself take great pleasure in testing numerous combinations of Mag items or skills to try and find that perfectly balanced general or even a character who is perfectly suited for a particular task.

I don't see how GW including rules for SC and producing models for them is a bad thing at all. I own the miniature for Gorbad Ironclaw but have never used him for anything but my own Orc warlord. He is a wonderful miniature that i doubt they would have produced if the rules for Gorbad weren't available in the book.

Finally these characters and the history behind them are often what attracts younger players to the hobby in the first place. I can remember that i found these iconic figures fascinating as a child (now way back in the mists of time) and it still seems to be the case with young players today.

PS despite everything said above i agree completely that they should not be used in tournement play. I just think that having their rules presented enriches the game.

[BilboBaggins]

My pholosiphy on Special Characters is if you want to play them then play LotR where they are pretty much balanced for the game and it's expected.

SC's in Warhammer are OK if you are playing a fun game where the opponent is informed ahead of time that SC's (and which ones) are being used. Not all armies even have decent SC (Chaos Dwarfs :D) and some SC's are not that bad in games but others are insane but the best way is to just say no to SC's.

[Faultie]

I only ever bought 2 special characters, and those were for my Kislev force. Why? Because otherwise it is just about impossible to play a standalone force.

That said, is Tsar Boris awesome? Heck yeah! Should he be, though? Of course! He rides a bear!

[BilboBaggins]

And you can't use those character together

[Faultie]

That's true. I suppose if you're restricted to a single special character or the other, it's hard to spam them.

[rabscutle]

Eh... I think when you look at special characters, they are reflective of their books. The books that feel over powered, seem to have really over powered special characters (see Daemons and the mega chicken).

Really, I think special characters are fine, as long as everyone knows you can bring them to the table. That said, they all tend to be game changing and do far more than any other character can by themselves.

One example of cramming a lot of points into one space is Valkia in the CW book. She's a beating as a lord, but also the BSB. Its a way, in a book starving for points, to get many things out of one character. Never mind all of her other powers, that saves you the points and allows you to free up your hero slots to defensive casters or exalted heroes to serve as beat sticks. I played BoLScon with her, because I was still having to borrow half my army at that point and because I didn't know my book as well as I would like. She's awesome, but she's also expensive. I probably could have gotten more flexibility from a tooled out Lord and some versatile heroes.

So what is my point after rambling... playing special characters doesn't make you a cheesy or worse player. Sometimes you can get a combination of magic items on a Lord/Hero that is far more destructive than a special character might be. Sometimes the special character takes the rules and bends them over a knee, but you usually pay through the nose points wise. Like anything in an army book, get to know what's in there, and actually try to learn *all* of it. If a special character works better for you because it frees points up to do something, awesome. If it is overpowered and makes you feel dirty for putting the army on the table, well, don't play it.

As far as the original subject of the thread... The Tzeentch Super Chicken in the Daemon book is pretty damn broken. Sadly I can't remember the name, but its the casting potential is insane with that thing...

[Randroid]

I like special characters. There are some that are a bit OTT, but for the most part I think they have a way of balancing themselves out. I don't look down upon people taking them... unless it is a friendly game and I don't know about it ahead of time perhaps.

[CitizenZero]

Bottom line - gw doesn't want you to make the game you own - they want you to play the game(s) how they want it to be played!

Your argument was pretty much invalidated by this statement. Games Workshop goes out of its way in nearly every way I have ever seen to say "make up your own ways to do things" (Doesn't apply in tournaments yes, but GW doesn't tend to have much interest in the tournament scene...)

When I started (about 15 years ago) Special Characters were "permission only" IE you had to ask for permission from your opponent to use them...this has changed since then, especially in 40k...I don't have a problem with people wanting to play special characters, I have a problem with anybody who powergames ("Unkillable" Dreadlord for example...you have to go out of your way to make him up, and he is more annoying by far than Malekith...)

This months White Dwarf actually has a decent article on this exact subject, and why some people choose to have special characters in their army...

[S0ULDU5T]

I like special characters. There are some that are a bit OTT, but for the most part I think they have a way of balancing themselves out. I don't look down upon people taking them... unless it is a friendly game and I don't know about it ahead of time perhaps.

I think this is the second or third time this is mentioned; If I want to bring a special character in my army list I do not need to fax a written consent form to your house 24 hours in advance, notoraized, so you'll play a game with me. Bottom line, I'll put a special character in my list which I'm nto showing anyone till the gme starts (then it's open list as far as I'm concearned) and if you don't like it you can cry that your weren't notified in due order to someone else.

Btw, no undue insult towards you specificly as I've read through some of your posts and like what you have to say, I'm just generally speaking to all that feel that advanced notice should be given to play anything. Whats next? Can I have permission to play Dark Elves? Can I have permission to put a unit champion here? This is a slippery slope of whining.

I made a post defending special characters on the 40k forums but in fantasy it's a bit different in that they don't really change your playstyle much, just enhance it. Given this, I can't really defend them the same nor feel the same about them, I really think it's whats fun for the person building the army as most characters are at least balanced point-wise but not always. As for custom built characters like 'unkillable dreadlord', seriously, quit *****ing about it. It's hardly unkillable as it gets run down, flees in fear, or enough wounds are finally dealt to it to matter; more often the running part. *****ing about Dark Elves has gotten to such an extreme that I will pull out my DE army, hear people ***** about it for three full turns then they 'somehow' beat me and still complain to me that I shouldn't have access to what I do. You might think it's Dark Elves ruining the game when in fact, it's your whining thats ruining it.

[Randroid]

Woah... chill out.

I was referring to the more commonly known "broken" ones like Thorek or Kairos.

[S0ULDU5T]

Woah... chill out.

I was referring to the more commonly known "broken" ones like Thorek or Kairos.

I'm sorry, I didn't know you had to take a qualude in order post here so you could be "chill", I thought forums were open to heated discussions. Silly me.

[Randroid]

Its not me I am worried about. Reading you ranting about DE and lists made me worry for your health. Don't want you blowing a gasket over something like tabletop gaming.

But in general - yes I think people complain a bit too much about the game. I know I have fallen into that trap before with my Ogres but you just gotta get past that and try to enjoy yourself. It is just a game. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't mean anything.

[the drake]

At my LGS special characters are neither frowned upon or encouraged. If anything it does seem to be the Lord level SC that are a bit over the top. The only SC I use or wish to use is Korhil and only then because he is the captain of the White Lions, and I can't give a normal hero a Lion's pelt (which is utter rubbish). I love the fact he has str 6, killing blow, asf, and his immune to poison pelt. I also love when he fluffs all his attacks due to the helm of command and he takes a killing blow and 2 regular wounds from the Grave Guard he failed to kill. Yeah he lasted a whole 1 round of combat.

[L192837465]

There are only a few truly "broken" special characters, and they are frowned upon when used. Kiros is one, Teclis, Thorek, Archaon, and only a couple others.

If you think Wulfric The Wanderer is broken, please pack your bags and leave.

[S0ULDU5T]

please pack your bags and leave.

See, I say stuff like this and people are like "Geez, he's such an *******". What a double standard :)

[L192837465]

See, I say stuff like this and people are like "Geez, he's such an *******". What a double standard :)


Meh. Not all special characters are broken or even good. Most hero level SCs are actually cheaper if you go with a standard character from your selections.

[Ajjaxx]

Well since what was asked was to list some of the "Broken" characters, I am going to list a few that I think are Over the top. (by the way, I love special characters due to them actually having an important background story)

Kairos Fateweaver- Too good, 14 spells you CHOSE that get +2 to all his casting rolls and he flys if i am not mistaken, making him hard to catch and even harder to kill

Skulltaker- hey if he cost as much as chakax, he would be fine! But 150 points for a str 6 killing blow on a 5+ any model regardless of size with a 3+ armor 5+ ward WS 9 and 4 (or 5) attacks? Shoot me now.

Thorek Ironbrow- Anvil of doom on 3+ with rerolls?! Wrath and ruin anyone?

Emperor Karl Franz- Maybe, He is very powerful as a support character and with access to many different mounts and pretty much a bargain with Ghal Maraz, he is borderline if not broken.

Prince Tyrion- 1+ armor 4+ward 4+ regeneration and IMMUNE to flaming attacks!? So a 1+ armor with a 4+ rerollable ward save? Strikes at WS 9 Initative 10 Always strikes first 4 attacks at str 7 with flaming attacks? Only 400 points for such a powerful brute.

Teclis- The man himself. He is a badass caster, Irrisistable force on any double besides double 1's. Enough said =)

Tetto' Eko- I have used him to quite an extent. Gives pretty much the entire lizardmen magic army irresistable force on any double! In small games not so much, but when you can have a slann mage priest and a few skinks all casting with teclis's abilities. Borderline yet again.

Archeon the everchosen- Superman in miniature form.

That pretty much concludes my broken characters list. If I have missed any, keep me posted =P

[Randroid]

I think that list about sums it up.

[Subject Keyword]

Personally, if someone wants to sink a billion and one points into a SC and throw their army COMPLETELY off balance, letting me murder their small amount of infantry and leaving one god-like dude staring down my well-rounded army, they can be my guest. You can take whoever the f**k you want, but for their points cost I can kit out three heroes and murder him. I learned this when I thought it would be a good idea to use The Nightbringer in a Necron army. My warriors got shot, died, phased-out, and the NB barely had time to get out an "OH SHI---" before he was gone.

[Aldramelech]

True, Dont like Uber SC's? Bolt Throwers are your friend! lol

[Dosadi]

I agree with Subject Keyword. Looking at the above list there is only one character that I feel is under-costed for what they can do and that is Skulltaker; but then the entire Daemon army list is under-costed. All the rest are in the realm of 400+ points (I don’t know about Tetto' Eko). If someone wants to use them then know I will be facing a much smaller army.
The great thing about fantasy battle is you don’t necessarily have to fight these uber-characters head to head to beat them. A well timed flank attack can send the character’s unit running. Or ignore them and take out the rest of their army around them. The most expensive character in my Empire army is 190 points so I’m confident I will outnumber and thus be able to out maneuver any army built around a special character. And Movement is the most important phase in Warhammer.


Dosadi

[Randroid]

Unless you suddenly can't move because your block of great (cheap) troops has been washed off the board with magic. Or Wrath and Ruined. etc..

Who cares how much a character costs when it can effectively decimate your entire army?

[L192837465]

Unless you suddenly can't move because your block of great (cheap) troops has been washed off the board with magic. Or Wrath and Ruined. etc..

Who cares how much a character costs when it can effectively decimate your entire army?

I concur wholeheartedly. Also, I know he's not a special character, but bloodthirsters in general. That much killing power for a tad over 500 points is absurd.



Personally, if someone wants to sink a billion and one points into a SC and throw their army COMPLETELY off balance, letting me murder their small amount of infantry and leaving one god-like dude staring down my well-rounded army, they can be my guest. You can take whoever the f**k you want, but for their points cost I can kit out three heroes and murder him. I learned this when I thought it would be a good idea to use The Nightbringer in a Necron army. My warriors got shot, died, phased-out, and the NB barely had time to get out an "OH SHI---" before he was gone.

GTFO. 40k is completely different. Legendary space marine commanders can be killed pretty easily. And you know as well as everyone else that a well balanced list won't win a tournament. Balls to the wall in one phase (MAYBE two) or you lose.

[Ajjaxx]

I agree with Subject Keyword. Looking at the above list there is only one character that I feel is under-costed for what they can do and that is Skulltaker; but then the entire Daemon army list is under-costed. All the rest are in the realm of 400+ points (I don’t know about Tetto' Eko). If someone wants to use them then know I will be facing a much smaller army.
The great thing about fantasy battle is you don’t necessarily have to fight these uber-characters head to head to beat them. A well timed flank attack can send the character’s unit running. Or ignore them and take out the rest of their army around them. The most expensive character in my Empire army is 190 points so I’m confident I will outnumber and thus be able to out maneuver any army built around a special character. And Movement is the most important phase in Warhammer.


Dosadi

Tetto'eko is a hero choice in the lizardmen army that is a Lv 2 wizard that knows the entire lore of heavens and costs 230 points. Pricey but giving your entire army Irresistible force on any doubles is worth the cost. As for the 400+ point characters, I feel they are powerful AT that point cost, so I glad your tooled lords and heroes are less than them. Movement is indeed the most important phase in warhammer, you will notice in those army books those characters either disrupt mobility or are extreamly mobile (tyrion 20 inch charge 18 with a squad, Karl franz 20 inch flying movement as well as fateweaver) Wrath and ruin- your movement is halved and there is nothing you can do about it. Any good player will FORCE you to deal with the superman threat, and unless you are playing wood elves (ha ha I made a funny) you wont have the mobility to get around most of those threats.