PDA

View Full Version : Chumby's Nexus of Necron Nowledge



Chumbalaya
10-13-2009, 09:21 AM
Necrons? People still play them?

Ah, I'm just messin' with ya, all four of you.

Necrons are in a tricky place currently. The Codex is old as a tomb world and 5th edition certainly didn't do them any favors. Gauss isn't what it used to be and combined with the increased resilience of vehicles a mech army can generally roll right over the poor tin men. What's worse, combat became even more dangerous and with only I2 losing essentially spells doom for your Warriors, bringing you ever closer to the dreaded Phase Out.

We talk a lot about competitive lists, optimized builds, and strong armies, but sometimes it's about bringing the army you love. I'm guilty with my Orks and Deathwing. And if you don't bring Guard, Tau, Marines, or Eldar you won't auto-lose. They may have a lot going against them, but a well built and well run Necron army can still hold its own. And if competitive play isn't your thing, then Necrons will do just fine in casual play.

Let's start with a quick analysis of the various units and options in the Codex. It shouldn't take too long, yay for limited choices!

Necron Lord: The only Necron HQ you've got. He isn't as good in combat or shooting as most HQs, but he provides the nigh-essential Ressurection Orb to keep your bots coming back for more. Use him to support and protect your army. A cheap Rez Orb Lord is good for smaller games. If you've got leg room, a Destroyer Body and Warscythe are extremely useful upgrades. T6 and boosted movement allow him to shrug off the blows of most normal troops and quickly respond to whichever threats present themselves. The Warscythe is for the extra dice against vehicles (they need all the help they can get) and ignoring invulnerable saves will give pause to units like Terminators or Daemons. He is far from the best fighter, but he's about the best you've got.

Pariahs: Ha ha! Unfortunately, Pariahs suck pretty hard. They are extremely expensive for non-Necrons that only have 1 attack and I3. Their Ld and anti-psyker effects may have some use, but the range is way too short and it lowers your Phase Out count way too far. Avoid at all costs.

Immortals: Solid. T5, Gauss Blasters, not an exorbitant cost. They're basically Warriors that are useful. Good mobile firepower at decent range and capable of shrugging off anything short of a Demolisher shell.

Flayed Ones: More garbage, unfortunately. They're basically a squad of Assault Marines without jump packs with no option for power weapons or fists. They can outflank, Deep Strike, or infiltrate, but they're just too slow and don't hit hard enough to have any effect. Terrifying Visage won't have much effect either considering how high Ld is currently. There is potential to combine with Pariahs, but that's a lot of points sunk into non-Necrons that can't get back up and Necrons that don't shoot. Fail.

Necron Warriors: They're mandatory, too bad. Warriors are expensive bolter marines with no combat ability, whoop dee do. They are slow, have limited offensive capabilities (woo hoo bolters!) and get taken off the board too quickly by anything with a pointed stick charging them. As your only scoring units, you want them protected. 2-3 small units is all you really need. Hold in reserve as needed and secure objectives late game or minimize KP while your army does the real damage.

Wraiths: If only the unit size could be bigger. High S, 3+ invulnerable save, ignoring cover and solid mobility looks nice, but since Wraiths come in small units and don't ignore armor, they stay on the shelf. You can try to tag team with a Destroyer Lord, but the unit size is simply too small and they just don't hit hard enough. Pity, the models look so nice.

Destroyers: Now we're talking. 3 S6 shots, T5 jetbike, WBB, all for a relatively low cost. These guys are your primary death dealers, putting out shots to take out infantry, force saves on MCs, blow apart light armor, and annoy heavy armor. Keep moving, keep blasting.

Scarabs: Cheap little tarpits that zoom across the field, what's not to like? They are great for tying down problem units and protecting your vulnerable shooty elements. Disruption Fields are relatively inexpensive and give them a chance to annoy vehicles.

Heavy Destroyers: Since glancing hits suck, you need these guys. Only a glorified lascannon, but it's on a tough and mobile platform, so side armor shots shouldn't be too hard. I'd consider these mandatory right after normal Destroyers.

Tomb Spyders: Fairly tough MCs with a low cost and solid supporting role. With a couple of these around, you don't have to keep your important units within hugztiem range of each other so a bad turn won't leave you SOL. This lets you split your army up and stay mobile, so you can get around side armor shots and force assaulty armies to split up to go after the different parts of your army. Plus, they can make free wounds! On top of all that, you get a MC that can cause some ruckus in combat, or at least buy enough time to keep your Warriors safe. A great babysitter.

Monolith: The most overrated unit of all time. Ever. Monoliths are a pain to kill, sure, but who bothers to try? Since the Mono isn't a Necron, going for Phase Out gets easier and for all its vaunted resilience, it goes poof like everything else. It doesn't even do that much damage. Flux Arcs? Immortals and Destroyers do it better. Particle Whip? No teleporting for you and it scatters, plus S9 isn't the best vehicle popper out there. Re-rolling WBB is useful, but another unit of Destroyers would be better for raising your Phase Out count. Avoid.

Nightbringer: Super awesome killy death machine...that moves 6" a turn. Pass.

Deceiver: Lots of neat abilities, but 300 points of non-Necrons is worrisome. Only in big games.

As you can see, our choices are quite limited for a competitive army. In casual play, anything works, so go nuts with it. When building your list, keep this equation in mind. Destroyers = Heavy Destroyers > Immortals. Destroyers of both types are equally essential in your army, as your primary firepower units and vehicle destroyers. Immortals add some good mobile anti-infantry dakka, but with only S5 guns and limited mobility Destroyers win out every time. After that, grab your required Warriors, a Lord, and if points allow Scarabs and Spyders to support your army.

Necrons have to be played very carefully: you need to maximize your firepower while avoiding assault at all costs (except for Scarabs and Spyders, but they go after weak units or tarpit). Your most important units are also your worst and you must keep them safe at all costs. Redundancy is key, otherwise one bad roll will lose a critical unit forever, you must always have at least 1 backup unit so your downed Necrons can attempt to get back up. You do have a metric ton of shooting dice, resilient units, good mobility and some neat tricks.

Shooting: Destroyers and Immortals put out an impressive amount of firepower. They are primarily anti-infantry units, Immortals definitely so, but they can also tag wounds on MCs to force a ton of saves and go after lighter vehicles. Heavy Destroyers are really your only answer to heavy armor, but S9 can be underwhelming, so try and get side shots if possible. Warriors can blast up close, but that means they will usually get assaulted next turn, so you want to avoid it generally.

Resilience: Destroyers and Immortals can get back up after getting hit by anything short of S10. Since we don't see that very often (or at least in manageable numbers), you can often run them independently of the Rez Orb and be ok. If Demolishers come knocking, spread out and have your Lord ready to respond if necessary. Once the S10 goes away, these guys can last quite a while.

Mobility: Destroyers and Scarabs move like jetbikes, so they can cover huge chunks of the board quickly and still fire to full effect. Use that speed coupled with their toughness to divide your forces if necessary, getting to vulnerable bits of the enemy and forcing them to respond to an attack from multiple side. It's like having skimmers, only 1 lucky shot doesn't leave you stranded.

Tricks: Have a Spyder build a scarab swarm and join your Destroyer Lord to it. Yay majority T6! Split your units up, keeping the Spyder within 12" at all time. If one unit gets wiped out, they come back with their buddies on the other side of the board. Instant teleportation, without relying on a Monolith or bunching up in pie plate formation.

That's what does work, let's take a look at what doesn't.

1) Warrior Horde. In theory, if you load up on Warriors your opponent can't kill them all and you can blow them away with sheer rate of fire. In reality, lolno. Warriors are far too easy to bring down with shooting or assault and the only way to get any decent amount of firepower is to get in rapid fire range. Ph34r t3h bolter! Right? Wrong. Marines have special weapons for a reason, bolters alone just don't cut it.

2) Twin Towers or Monospam. Monoliths are a pain to knock out, so 2 or 3 must be even harder. Sure, but that means you have even less Necrons and Phase Out that much quicker. The only way to bring an adequate number of Necrons is to bring tons of Warriors, and we know how awesome that is (pro tip: it isn't). In theory you could shield the Warriors with big walls of fail, but then you have no way to capture objectives and you're playing for a draw. 2-3 S9 pies aren't going to stop an entire army.

3) Wraithwing. 9 Wraiths plus Destroyer Lords. No real firepower and 9 T4 models without power weapons make up your assault force.

4) C'tan and Pariahs min-Warriors jamboree. Just kidding.

Necrons can do well, but you have a rather limited set of tools to work with and very specific applications for them. With some skill and a little luck you can still pull out that win. Player skill will generally trump list strength like always, but it never hurts to have a good list to go with your l33t skillz. Keep on trucking, I'm sure you'll get a Codex by 2012 :P

I'd like to thank bigred for giving me the idea to do this and of course most of the credit goes to ****** for inspiring most of this tactica (the parts I didn't totally jack from his site of course ;)).

Brosef Stalin
10-13-2009, 04:07 PM
Awesome post! It's sad really, I think the Necrons are an interesting army, but as your post explains, they're just not up to current standards. Personally, I guess I'll stick with my Marines and hold my breath for a new codex (and maybe some plastic elite choices!)

Thirteen
10-13-2009, 04:43 PM
No mention of Veil of Darkness? Sad day.

In my experience a lord with Veil and orb is absolutely necessary for a competitive necron build (lol, competitive necrons...) veiling to an objective fifth turn is a very solid tactic and last second veiling to avoid combat and jump into rapid fire range to take out back field enemies is an excellent way to turn the tides.

Otherwise nice article covers a lot of the basics when it comes to necrons, a good guide for those just picking up necrons.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-13-2009, 05:30 PM
Pariahs: Ha ha! Unfortunately, Pariahs suck pretty hard. They are extremely expensive for non-Necrons that only have 1 attack and I3. Their Ld and anti-psyker effects may have some use, but the range is way too short and it lowers your Phase Out count way too far. Avoid at all costs. Wouldn't it be GOOD to have deadly units like this that can't be ignored? They are just as good as immortals but also have warscythes. For the uninitiated, that means 2d6 armor penetration, and no saves of any kind in combat. Not even invuls.

A squad of these guys would cost a fortune, but it's a lose-lose for the enemy; if they ignore them those warscythes can claim lives, and if they are pouring fire into them, then they AREN'T firing at "necron" models. I know they aren't very resilient, unfortunately, and that is where they suffer the most. Having them surrounded by flayed ones could do some damage though (assuming they make it across the table).

The Run rules have made things a lot more viable. I don't know why people don't use the Nightbringer other than his cost; Hiding the pariahs behind him with a screen of Flayed Ones could be very interesting (everything on the other side of the table will be firing at that, especially if you make a good run roll...keeping necrons alive longer).

It seems like you have a double standard going throughout this guide: "You need lots of necrons to win! But necrons are crappy, don't take them. But don't take non-Necron tough things either." I just don't follow the general train of thought (though that is probably mostly because the Necron dex is pretty crap for 5th).

What are you looking for -- an army of scarabs?

crazyzombie
10-13-2009, 05:50 PM
QUOTE]Deceiver: Lots of neat abilities, but 300 points of non-Necrons is worrisome. Only in big games. QUOTE]

Are you kiding me! this guy's a beast. While I agree 6 inch movement kinda stinks where this guy really shines is in the leadership. His abllity to cause fearless units to take moral checks is awsome when combined with Pariahs leadership reducer. Oh and the best part about him he can dodge any assults he wants meaning If he wants the assult he gets the assult!

EmperorEternalXIX
10-13-2009, 05:55 PM
he is also, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to the nightbringer as a fighter. The stats differences are very minimal. He has the same "no saves of any kind" trick on his CC attacks, too.

MajorSoB
10-13-2009, 06:23 PM
Good overall post, I applaud you sir. I would offer a couple of minor corrections...

1) Pariahs, while you are correct in the high cost and non necron drawback, each of them carry a rock solid weapon (AP3) and also offer an ability that lowers leadership within a certain range. I look for this unit to be adjusted in the next codex but currently they have their place.

2) Flayed ones are actually awesome in the right situation. Visage and outflank hit pretty hard on low leadership horde armies like Orks and Guard. A squad of them in your opponents back line work wonders, plus get them in range of the pariahs leadership lowering ability and you have yourself a party!

3) C'tans are now actually better. Yes both move 6" and are expensive however with run added to 5th edition it increases the ability for both these close combat monsters to engage the enemy.

4) Veil of Darkness is almost a standard in any Necron build. It is one of the most useful tools available and can be used to control or contest objectives.

This is not to say that Necrons didnt get beat down hard with the nerf bat of 5th edition. Both the new vehicle damage table and new close combat resolution rules have hurt Necrons more than any other army. They are playable but without a rewrite not reliable enough to make it to most tournaments.

DarkLink
10-13-2009, 06:38 PM
Those who think necrons got nerfed haven't played our local player :p

Seriously, though, he never fails his WBB, or leadership tests. I've never seen Necrons Sweeping Advanced, because either you wipe his squad out the old fashioned way, or he passes his leadership.

Once, I killed his lord 6 time in the same frickin game. 6 TIMES!!!! He passed every single WBB on the lord.

I know that's not normal for Necron players, though.

Anyways, good post. I don't even care much about Necrons, and I liked it. One thing I will say: don't bother taking Scarabs against Grey Knights.

Chumbalaya
10-13-2009, 09:12 PM
Thanks for the comments, I hope I didn't miss anything.

I don't rate Pariahs because they are easy to ignore and even if they get into combat, I3 and only 1 attack will see them struggle against damn near anything. For all the points you spend on such a unit, more Destroyers or Immortals will always serve you better. Necrons don't win combats, it just doesn't happen. So why bother and get fewer guns? Gauss Blaster is only AP4 btw.

VoD is bad because of the inherent issues with Deep Striking. It was useful when gauss could actually harm a vehicle, but all it does now is run the risk of meeting up with Mystics or having your important units drop into everyone's favorite "pie plate" formation. Besides, the army is maneuverable enough, just keep those Warriors away and you'll be fine.

Deceiver has some useful abilities, but the price you pay is simply too high since it means less shots. Even with running C'tan are simply too slow. After you've maxed out on Destroyers and Immortals and you've got points to play with, go nuts. He's a big risk and the price you pay (not just points, but Necrons and potential shooting units) may be too high.

Necrons Warriors are crap, Destroyers and Immortals are gold. You're forced to bring Warriors, but the more dakka units you can field, going light on Troops won't hurt as bad.

Problem with Flayed Ones is their lack of speed and lack of overall utility. They can mince guardsmen, but what can't? Scarabs would do a better job for cheaper and get there sooner. The Ld effect won't generally come into play because Ld is so high, especially on combat units and the only Ld dropper in the book is garbage. Walking outflankers that can only fight in combat is a recipe for disaster, if they only had fleet and rending...

Norbu the Destroyer
10-13-2009, 09:40 PM
Chumbayla,

Have you ever seen the TV show Moral Oral.....On the show is a braty kid who replies to everyone in the town with a scruntchy face, and he always says everything is stupid. He always has his thumbs in his ears and is sticking out his tounge after every statement. This is how i picture you after every post. You are very entertaining as a joke. But as serious 40k tactic advice, no one should look to you for help. Saying that orks are not competitve and that blood crushers are garbage, means that you never play the game or play against opponents that are terrible. I find your necron tactics laughable. Your basic list would consist of 2 necron troops, destroyers and more destroyer, and a lord or 2. It is so one dimensional that a good player would table you in 4 turns. Saying the c'tans are too slow and expensive is ridiculous. The deciever is a fast moving character. Have you ever been in a combat with the deciever that breaks out of it to move 2d6 into another unit. Have ever seen the monolith be used to move troops across the board and capture objectives or sucking necrons out of combats? From your post, i think you don't play the game at all, but only read the codexes and form your own opinions. Hopefully I will see you in the tournement circuts. Though I still find you entertaining like a dog chasing its own tail. :)

EmperorEternalXIX
10-14-2009, 12:38 AM
That was pretty harsh. I would not have worded it so cruelly; but the man has some points.

There are strengths in the codex that are utterly ignored by virtue of seemingly favoritism. I have heard many complaints about the C'tan before but I've never heard someone say that the Monolith is worthless and useless (especially when it is the only way to transport necrons besides the deadly veil of darkness and also allows you to shield other models' advances, not to mention the obvious benefit of it's AP1 ordnance move, plus the fact that it lets you re-roll WWB rolls).


Problem with Pariahs is their lack of speed and lack of overall utility. They can mince guardsmen, but what can't?Pariahs will tear open any vehicle in their path, virtually. You could consider assaulting vehicles instead of infantry if initiative 3 is so worrisome.

When you write a tactica you have to consider particular uses of units, even if you don't personally like them. If you do not see the usefulness of a unit despite it's weakness all you are doing is being a power gamer on a soapbox, technically; "This list is the only viable way! The other units are crap! Just trust me!"

Lerra
10-14-2009, 01:17 AM
This tactica jives very well with what I've seen at 2000 points or below. At higher points, Monoliths and other "toys" become more viable though, and that's probably where a lot of the resistance comes from. A lot of Necron units are viable - just not at <2000 points.

I would also like to point out that Necrons are very competitive at Apocalypse level! It's a good way for players to get their Necron fix.

Chumbalaya
10-14-2009, 05:48 AM
Chumbayla,

Have you ever seen the TV show Moral Oral.....On the show is a braty kid who replies to everyone in the town with a scruntchy face, and he always says everything is stupid. He always has his thumbs in his ears and is sticking out his tounge after every statement. This is how i picture you after every post. You are very entertaining as a joke. But as serious 40k tactic advice, no one should look to you for help. Saying that orks are not competitve and that blood crushers are garbage, means that you never play the game or play against opponents that are terrible. I find your necron tactics laughable. Your basic list would consist of 2 necron troops, destroyers and more destroyer, and a lord or 2. It is so one dimensional that a good player would table you in 4 turns. Saying the c'tans are too slow and expensive is ridiculous. The deciever is a fast moving character. Have you ever been in a combat with the deciever that breaks out of it to move 2d6 into another unit. Have ever seen the monolith be used to move troops across the board and capture objectives or sucking necrons out of combats? From your post, i think you don't play the game at all, but only read the codexes and form your own opinions. Hopefully I will see you in the tournement circuts. Though I still find you entertaining like a dog chasing its own tail. :)

Thanks for the entertaining read I guess, wall'o'text trolling is new but interesting.

Orks aren't competitive, well we covered that already. Bloodcrushers are bad because they come on such huge bases (good luck safely DS-ing against somebody with infiltrators), move like infantry, get ruined by Dreads, and Fiends are just better.

Explain to me how a boat load of jetbikes with tons of firepower, mobile T5 infantry with loads of firepower, a cheap jetbike tarpit, and 2 MCs is one-dimensional. Warriors hordes are one dimensional. Monospam is one dimensional. This army have mobility, massive firepower, combat units that may not kill anything, but can tie them down for a bit, and the vast majority of everything is T5 so doesn't need a Lord to babysit them.

Deceiver can do his movement, if somebody is stupid enough to charge it. Everyone knows what it does, why charge the T8 death machine when you can just get the Necrons and Phase it Out?

Monoliths can teleport, but that means the vaunted pie plate isn't in use and you're bringing Warriors closer so they can get killed. Combat generally only last 1 turn, especially against Necrons (kill 0 enemies, lose by 5 or so, wiped), so popping out of combat won't happen as often.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I hear the mailman coming. Must. Chase.


That was pretty harsh. I would not have worded it so cruelly; but the man has some points.

There are strengths in the codex that are utterly ignored by virtue of seemingly favoritism. I have heard many complaints about the C'tan before but I've never heard someone say that the Monolith is worthless and useless (especially when it is the only way to transport necrons besides the deadly veil of darkness and also allows you to shield other models' advances, not to mention the obvious benefit of it's AP1 ordnance move, plus the fact that it lets you re-roll WWB rolls).

Necrons really don't need to be transported, the units that are useful are speedy enough, and you only need to capture 1 objective and knock your opponent off the rest. Monos are not good enough to be an army on their own, though some people wish it were the case. What it going to be, teleport or S9 ordnance? You can't have both. With all the points spent on a Monolith, you can get 8 Immortals or 4 Destroyers or 3 Heavy Destroyers. Losing out on that much power for Phasing Out quicker and the off chance of a S9 weapon hurting is not all that good. Veil isn't worth it due to the afore-mentioned "pie plate" formation.

It's not a matter of being biased towards one unit over another. I read the Codex, read the rulebook, play games, test units and test builds. You don't have to be a 40k savant to know that Pariahs are bad, they've sucked since the book came out. Necrons don't have good combat troops, their Troops are garbage but necessary, and they need to keep the Phase Out number high while maintaining a good amount of firepower. Destroyers and Immortals are the best firepower units in the book, plus with T5 and mobility they can operate safely on their own, so you don't have to huddle everything around your lord. I like Flayed Ones and Wraiths, the models and fluff are sweet, but they don't help a Necron army out.


Pariahs will tear open any vehicle in their path, virtually. You could consider assaulting vehicles instead of infantry if initiative 3 is so worrisome.

I meant Flayed Ones, d'oh me :P Pariahs can potentially mess up vehicles, they just have to get there. It doesn't happen often.


When you write a tactica you have to consider particular uses of units, even if you don't personally like them. If you do not see the usefulness of a unit despite it's weakness all you are doing is being a power gamer on a soapbox, technically; "This list is the only viable way! The other units are crap! Just trust me!"

That wouldn't be a very helpful tactica, would it? "This unit is bad, but I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings so I'll just pretend it isn't made of suck." I don't understand why anybody would want to read that, it doesn't do anything for you. Pariahs are bad, Flayed Ones are bad, C'tan are bad. Sorry, that's why my experience has taught me and apparently other people need that lesson too. Just because you get lucky once or twice doesn't make them awesome sauce.

Now, if you have ideas on how to use said poor units or any experiences to share, I'd be happy to hear them and see if I can incorporate it. Instead of just "durr, you am rong" I'd like some back up for your arguments. I am more than happy to accept criticism, otherwise I wouldn't be replying, but something significant to consider would help your claims a lot.

Rex
10-14-2009, 07:55 AM
As a Necron player in 5th edition, Chumbalaya is spot on with his unit opinions.

The C'tan relies on your opponent not knowing their rules. For example, Misdirect isn't that awesome of an ability because if someone knows the Deceiver's rules, he won't assault him. Also, 4+ invuls means you take a wound half the time in shooting. Toughness 8 doesn't save you from everything.

Monoliths are too expensive for mobile terrain that lets you WBB again.

I'm with you guys. I spent money on C'tan and three Monoliths. I wish they were awesome. But experience has shown me that there are better units to use and more competitive ways to play.

DarkLink
10-14-2009, 10:06 AM
As a Necron player in 5th edition, Chumbalaya is spot on with his unit opinions.

The C'tan relies on your opponent not knowing their rules. For example, Misdirect isn't that awesome of an ability because if someone knows the Deceiver's rules, he won't assault him. Also, 4+ invuls means you take a wound half the time in shooting. Toughness 8 doesn't save you from everything.

Monoliths are too expensive for mobile terrain that lets you WBB again.

I'm with you guys. I spent money on C'tan and three Monoliths. I wish they were awesome. But experience has shown me that there are better units to use and more competitive ways to play.

From a non-Necron player's opinion, I have to agree. If I see Monoliths, I think "hey, phase out is lower now, cool". I like the idea of deepstriking a single monolith into the middle of the enemy army, but aside from that, I agree there are more dangerous units out there.

As for the C'tan, he might be fast enough to get into combat eventually (thanks to Run), but if that's the case, he'll take so long to get there that I can lascannon him to death first. It's not like I have anything else to shoot with my anti-tank weapons against Necrons (I wouldn't waste fire on the Monolith).

EmperorEternalXIX
10-14-2009, 01:57 PM
What about using these things defensively?

People always talk about the Necrons under the premise of hurtling toward the enemy. It's fifth edition now and there are other ways to win the game.

Deep striking the monolith onto an objective late game is a great way to FORCE people to shoot at it, and to contest any lightly defended back zone objectives. It is the only vehicle in the game that doesn't need to fear melta weaponry, so I'd use it accordingly. Dumping it on a critical back zone objective is gonna force the other guy to deal with it. Add to that the idea that once you get into a certain range of it, you can beam your troops onto said objective. Correct me if I am wrong but can't you assault out of the door on a monolith if it doesn't move, much like a transport? If this is the case then why not send a big unit of flayed ones into the enemy on that objective you DS'ed onto? It would only take one turn of moving and a decent run to get with 18" if you start in close enough.

Similarly, Pariahs camping on an objective is not a happy prospect either. I would use them for back zone defense. You talk a lot about Destroyers, they are definitely great, but as soon as I reach them with a power fist they go splat (and with your lord elsewhere they don't get back up). The same could be done for Tomb Spyders, who if they only crap out one baby, majority toughness rules make them a whole 5 or so wounds of T6 (I think, I don't remember his stats too well)which can also walk+run across the board.

I have no fear whatsoever of charging destroyers if I can get ahold of them, and other high strength/high AP weapons merc them pretty easily. With your Lord far away these guys are as good as dead to a squad with a couple of plasma guns. And your certainly not going to have them in cover and chancing that dangerous terrain test on such a small squad. Lascannons, rending, etc...a lot of things will kill these guys, and a canny opponent will want to silence their fire. A unit of Pariahs, on the other hand, you know you are going to take losses from. Not to mention being shot at by their guns on your entire approach, and being Leadership 7 at a point. Any MEQ squad is going to take a hurting in combat with those guys.

Similarly, camping the C'tan in the back area near some midpoint between two objectives is a serious deterrent. Comparatively, Using the Nightbringer or Deceiver can have these same types of effects; putting them near an objective ensures any suckers that try to take it are going to get charged. At T8, these guys will shrug off almost any basic combat attacks (I believe Str4 can't even hurt them...so auto immunity to everything but a power fist or some other comparatively rarer CC bonuses).

Barring all this, two monoliths going up the board in front of your phalanx could protect ALL of these troops pretty easily, since it is so huge. The enemy would once again be forced to fire at the big vehicles or maneuver around them.

I know these are not the most viable options, but the units have strengths that can be utilized in the psychology of the meta game, and that is where your tactica does not cover much. Tactica implies to me observing the strengths and weaknesses of the units and how they can be used; they have benefits that you ignore because they are not traditionally affective, but there are players out there who may want to use these units anyway for whatever reason (maybe they have a very nicely painted C'tan, or whatever). To these people, it is a disservice to write off the units. Nobody wants to hear "The thing you bought and painted sucks, sorry, through it away and buy more warriors."

Plus, you know, I have this demented fantasy that these weird Necron lists could actually...win. Hehe.

Chumbalaya
10-14-2009, 03:17 PM
What about using these things defensively?

People always talk about the Necrons under the premise of hurtling toward the enemy. It's fifth edition now and there are other ways to win the game.

What people? I certainly don't. The best stuff is shooty, so why bother risking a charge when you have 24"-36" range on top of normal movement. It's 5th ed, so cap your home oebjective and contest the rest.


Deep striking the monolith onto an objective late game is a great way to FORCE people to shoot at it, and to contest any lightly defended back zone objectives. It is the only vehicle in the game that doesn't need to fear melta weaponry, so I'd use it accordingly. Dumping it on a critical back zone objective is gonna force the other guy to deal with it. Add to that the idea that once you get into a certain range of it, you can beam your troops onto said objective. Correct me if I am wrong but can't you assault out of the door on a monolith if it doesn't move, much like a transport? If this is the case then why not send a big unit of flayed ones into the enemy on that objective you DS'ed onto? It would only take one turn of moving and a decent run to get with 18" if you start in close enough.

You wouldn't be able to pull it off when the Mono comes in, it would count as moving. Plus, the assaulting unit would need to start within 18" of the Mono. This isn't a particularly good idea because you lose out on everything taking a Mono does (200+ points of not Necrons, 1 less Heavy slot) without any startup benefit. Basically, it makes it easier to bring you to Phase Out. Mono arrives randomly, and it's much easier to ignore if it's sent in back and you are poised to Phase Out the rest of the army. It can work, but a canny opponent will just take the big opportunity to Phase you out quicker. And if you hold Warriors in reserve to teleport out of the Mono in an effort to raise the Phase Out count, that's less damaging units to keep your opponent from destroying the Warriors as they show up.


Similarly, Pariahs camping on an objective is not a happy prospect either. I would use them for back zone defense. You talk a lot about Destroyers, they are definitely great, but as soon as I reach them with a power fist they go splat (and with your lord elsewhere they don't get back up). The same could be done for Tomb Spyders, who if they only crap out one baby, majority toughness rules make them a whole 5 or so wounds of T6 (I think, I don't remember his stats too well)which can also walk+run across the board.

You won't reach Destroyers with a powerfist, they're too fast and maneuverable. Pariahs camping on an objective means you have less Necrons and Phase Out gets easier. They aren't even that resilient without WBB, or you can simply ignore the massive point sinks.


I have no fear whatsoever of charging destroyers if I can get ahold of them, and other high strength/high AP weapons merc them pretty easily. With your Lord far away these guys are as good as dead to a squad with a couple of plasma guns. And your certainly not going to have them in cover and chancing that dangerous terrain test on such a small squad. Lascannons, rending, etc...a lot of things will kill these guys, and a canny opponent will want to silence their fire. A unit of Pariahs, on the other hand, you know you are going to take losses from. Not to mention being shot at by their guns on your entire approach, and being Leadership 7 at a point. Any MEQ squad is going to take a hurting in combat with those guys.

If you can get a hold of them. That's a big if. If my Zzap Gun blows up a Land Raider a turn I won't have any problem winning.


Similarly, camping the C'tan in the back area near some midpoint between two objectives is a serious deterrent. Comparatively, Using the Nightbringer or Deceiver can have these same types of effects; putting them near an objective ensures any suckers that try to take it are going to get charged. At T8, these guys will shrug off almost any basic combat attacks (I believe Str4 can't even hurt them...so auto immunity to everything but a power fist or some other comparatively rarer CC bonuses).

I try not to assume my opponents are suckers ;) You sit back the 300 point unit and hope they come towards it? Let me know how that works out. People have guns, they can ignore your walking points sink and since it's 300 points of not Necrons, Phase Out comes quicker.


Barring all this, two monoliths going up the board in front of your phalanx could protect ALL of these troops pretty easily, since it is so huge. The enemy would once again be forced to fire at the big vehicles or maneuver around them.

Maneuver around the brick wall that moves 6" a turn, how ever will I manage? That's 470 points of not Necrons and if you hide everything behind them, your entire army amounts to 2 S9 pie plates per turn. I'm pretty sure I already covered why this is a bad idea.


I know these are not the most viable options, but the units have strengths that can be utilized in the psychology of the meta game, and that is where your tactica does not cover much. Tactica implies to me observing the strengths and weaknesses of the units and how they can be used; they have benefits that you ignore because they are not traditionally affective, but there are players out there who may want to use these units anyway for whatever reason (maybe they have a very nicely painted C'tan, or whatever). To these people, it is a disservice to write off the units. Nobody wants to hear "The thing you bought and painted sucks, sorry, through it away and buy more warriors."

I did go over their advantages and disadvantages, obviously some units have a massive amount of the latter. If you want to use your well painted C'tan or Pariahs because you love the models, go ahead. I play a Deathwing army for crying out loud. It's not good at all, but I love the fluff. It's not a matter of ignoring their benefits because they don't fit into my biased commentary, it's because they don't have any benefits that justify the expense (either points or by lowering your Necron count). I don't know what you were reading, but I never recommended people take Warriors of all things :P Some units just aren't good, that's what happens with an outdated book written for 2 editions ago. Pretending like they're not isn't going to help anybody.


Plus, you know, I have this demented fantasy that these weird Necron lists could actually...win. Hehe.

Hell, apparently a "1 of everything" Necron list won our last local tourney. I wish I could have seen it, must have been hilarious.

Lord Anubis
10-14-2009, 04:04 PM
I can only believe this thread was started because too many people were defending Orks, as it follows the same line of reasoning. Which can be summed up as "I'm right! I'm right! I'm right!!!"

I love seeing twelve and thirteen year olds make these arguments when I stop by my old gaming store. If there exists any unit A that can counter unit B, then unit B must be useless. A Leman Russ Punisher with heavy bolters will tear up a mob or Ork Boys, therefore Ork Boys are useless.

But a Leman Russ will get toasted by one round of shooting from Fire Dragons, therefore a Leman Russ is useless.

A squad of Fire Dragons can be wiped out by a squad of assault terminators, therefore fire dragons are useless.

Assault terminators will be gunned down by the sheer firepower of an Imperial Guard platoon, therefore terminators are useless.

An Imperial Guard Platoon will be annihilated by a full-strength genestealer squad, so Guardsmen are useless.

And so on, and so on, and so on...

Every army is useless if you sit and use examples custom-picked to counter it. I could wipe out any army list with any player using it if I got to cherry pick all the units in advance.

Thing is... you don't get to. "Tactica" like this are pointless because they assume every army list is going to be able to counter every other army list. Which is ridiculous. This isn't an armchair game. It's got so many variables it's just silly to make any sort of blanket statement about any army.

What army sucks next? Space Marines? Man, Tau rail rifles will just chew through them. I guess space marines are useless. Of course, gauss blasters will eradicate Tau, so I guess Tau are useless.

Alas, we've already been told that Necrons are useless.

So I guess we've all wasted a ton of money on this game... Unless you're playing Demons.

No, wait. I forgot. Demons are useless.

;)

crazyzombie
10-14-2009, 04:14 PM
I agree with EmperoreternalXIX on pariahs. Sure I3 1A sucks agnist most horde stuff but, people tend to not offload there 5 TH/SS Teminators into the arms of pariahs. While why agree this idea wouldn't be good in small games but combining the deciever with pariahs hurts everbody in leadership and makes assults happens. Finally Chumbalaya you argue that the people who play necrons will for sure have a very large amount of firepower but will completely not care about assult. I don't about you but I think very few people play tau. That was harsh to the four that due play but its true. This is also true with the reverse. My Destroyers will never get hit by a powerfist becuase they move to fast mabey true but they might just might get shot.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-14-2009, 04:33 PM
You won't reach Destroyers with a powerfist, they're too fast and maneuverable.
This is foolish and proves to me you haven't seen too many canny opponents. For one thing, it doesn't always need to be a Power Fist. My land speeders with multi meltas claim these guys lives all the time. Not to mention I catch them with outflanking scouts with a power fist constantly -- moreso with the land speeder storm at my disposal. I've rended them with assault cannons and vomited out terminators into close combat from a Land Raider Crusader, I've launched a Plasma Cannon from the Master of the Ravenwing's bike, and of course I have torn them limb from limb with jump marines.

Lots of things in the game move 12 inches and carry power fists.


Pariahs camping on an objective means you have less Necrons and Phase Out gets easier. They aren't even that resilient without WBB, or you can simply ignore the massive point sinks While this is true, ignoring this unit in this situation means you are also ignoring an objective. The idea of "phase out gets easier" is foolish...isn't that all the more reason to hide your necrons and fling guys like this at the enemy? They can't ignore them forever, and if they do, then you are in a position to utilize them to maximum effect as they cross the table unmolested.


Maneuver aroundthe brick wall that moves 6" a turn, how ever will I manage? That's 470 points of not Necrons and if you hide everything behind them, your entire army amounts to 2 S9 pie plates per turn. I'm pretty sure I already covered why this is a bad idea. it turns all necron troops into much more mobile units, is the point. It is also a defensive strategy. You CAN'T ignore that thing if it is sitting on an objective you need to take -- literally, you CAN'T. It has to be killed for you to take it. Two monoliths can contest two objectives off the deep strike. I'm not saying it's a viable list, but having one of these is to your benefit either way -- beaming troops out the front door is actually much further than 18", you only have to be within 18" of the monolith to come out the door on the other side of the six inch thick "big black brick wall." This is also a bit of an oxymoron, as you routinely maintain that destroyers will never get caught by anything that kills them easily, but yet seem to contend that in this point, the entire rest of the 40k world is more than capable of maneuvering around your entire army to get at easy targets behind the Monoliths.

You mentioned something I didn't even think of at all originally, and that is having Warriors come from reserve out of a monolith. Why wouldn't you do this? It goes along with your principle of defending Necron models -- if they aren't on the board they can't get shot at, right? I know it has issues (namely you could only spit out as many squads as you have monoliths, and that is too many points), but the monolith also greatly extends the life of your Necron models by allowing a duplicate WBB roll.

You say you never recommend people take Warriors, but you swear by using Necron models and say that everything in the Codex is bad except Destroyers. By this logic maxing out on destroyers for your necron models gives you like...15 necrons. How is that maximizing phase out? You have to take warriors to up the count, really, and by what your original post implies, everything that is a non-necron is bad and everything that isn't a destroyer is bad. So what's left? Warriors, really.

So why not have a way for them to beam safely around the board to objectives, contest objectives, and keep meltas and lascannons firing at the big black pyramid instead of at your easily 2+/no save woundable Destroyers? You say a canny player will ignore it, and of course they will. But that is why you have to force the guy to not have that option. Put it in the way of his land raider or long-range AT; drop it in front of their leman russes; drop it onto a squad in a forest and force them to move out of the way. Or drop it onto an area where it can cover some objectives and see how long those troops units last under its pie plate. Throw it in front of high AP weapons and block their LOS on static squads.

I know it's not viable to burn a lot of points on it, but the thing has a myriad of uses that are not covered by "Too expensive and takes away Necrons, never use this."

Similarly, the C'tan. "Oh just ignore it." if they ignore it, it's going to eventually reach something, and it's going to rip that poor something apart. If they fire at it...they aren't firing at your precious necrons. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't (assuming they don't make you phase out beforehand). Of course, it is not hard to avoid the phase out early on; using your necron troops offensively is generally a bad idea as most anything in the game is superior and they are susceptible to sweeps. Defend your own objectives with them, and have tons of other weird non-necron killy stuff push forward. The solution to most of the stuff I've said is "You can just ignore them" but eventually if you ignore 60% of the enemy army it is going to reach you and you will have to deal with the C'tans, the monoliths, the other stuff.

I know it is not widely considered viable but I've always been a fan of the idea of using a list full of NON-necron models, and keeping the actual necrons at a total minimum; sending the other stuff forward to wreak havoc and soak up bullets while the necron models themselves safely hide in the backfield, either out of LOS completely or in cover, taking pot shots. Once turn 4 hits you beam out/land from reserves and get aggressive.

Exitus Acta Probat
10-14-2009, 06:37 PM
I'm not going to quote anything specific, as each person's argument against chumby is of a similar vein...

But Chumby is correct.
Necrons rate as one of the lowest of the low lists as of now.
Daemonhunters suvive by dint of allies...thus making their list, if purely DH, a chosen weakness.
Same applies to WH, and they are even viable as pure sisters (or nearly pure) though shortlegged. Include allies, and boom ....they're more than just fine.

Necrons have no buffer for their innate weaknesses.
You can say any one unit in the 'dex is AWESOME...and then you have to confront one sad little fact...their only troop is the warrior.
18 point warrior
with an init of 2.

Welcome to assault, you are wiped out...
welcome to second assault, you are phased out...any questions.


You CAN ignore pariah...they cannot 'port or WBB...and they're more expensive than Immortals.
You CAN ignore C'tan...they cannot 'port, and consume a significant enough portion of the 'cron army that you merely need to focus on other elements to get the job done.
You CAN ignore any of the units you would want to (the non-necron models) as if you are playing proper 5e, you are mobile...or capable of putting forward mobile tarpits...
You CANNOT take any one unit in the codex, and apply it out of context. Wraiths have too low a model count to survive WBB excess...Pariah/TS/Scarabs(etc) don't count toward your totals. C'tan and Monos qualify here too.
Necrons are the easiest army to ignore current objectives (excepting annihilation) and just go for the table, and are the easiest army to table.

I know that yes, you can win games with them..but you cannot consistently win tournament games with adept opponents in an open field with them. They are currently gimped.

MajorSoB
10-14-2009, 08:39 PM
Hell, apparently a "1 of everything" Necron list won our last local tourney. I wish I could have seen it, must have been hilarious.

That is one way of looking at it, if your were playing him you might have had a slightly less humorous outlook. The person you speak of was Chris Courtney who has won several GT events. Most of his armies feature a "1 of everything" approach, he relies on tactics and skill to win. I have played this army and I am sure it had 1 Monolith, a squad of Pariahs, and a squad of Scarab, as well as Necrons, Immortals, and Destroyers.

Part of the problem that I see is the way you look at everything. If I hammer can't fix it then its broke. Sometimes something more subtle is required. Again Necrons are not on par with most other armies due to the rule changes in 5th edition but they can still be played. This is why the "1 of everything" list was used, as a personal challenge. You can give the excuse that "the competition was bad....blah, blah, blah" but sometimes the skill of the player is the difference between a win and a lose. Try to get a game with this person sometime, you might be amazed how a soft well balanced list can rip through your army. Remember a simple knife in the hands of a surgeon can perform miracles.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-15-2009, 04:04 AM
I still find it hard to believe that people feel you can simply ignore 75% of the enemy's most deadly forces on the table. Alone, yes, you could ignore any of the lamer pieces in the codex. But suppose an army (and bear with my hypothetical, here) took a C'tan, two Tomb Spyders, two Monoliths, and 10 Pariahs, along with a slew of Flayed Ones, flanked by destroyers and warriors. Could the enemy really ignore all that, especially once turn 3 passes and these things are in his lines?

My point overall that I was trying to make is it's not all about the codex, it's also about the meta game. The meta game right now is mobility, forward assault, and melta spam -- all of which the Necrons have ways to deal with.

The argument of "a good player will ignore it" is bad. A good player will tie up my assault terminators with cheap disposable units, too; does that make it a bad choice? Like I said, putting a Monolith in some narrow pass the enemy needs to pass through to reach you easily can be a game winning decision, if you use it that way. Also I have seen warrior squads fail something like 8 or 9 WBB rolls only to be beamed through the door and be brought back almost to full strength.

As for "1 of everything" lists, I run this way myself, and do it precisely because I want to feel like when I win, it was because of my generalship and not my army list/mathhammer. Any idiot can go "Okay THSS Terminators are the best assault unit in the SM codex, so I will take three sets and try to get off an assault with them." It doesn't feel like a real battle when there's just a bunch of redundant best-case-scenario units on the table, at least not for me. If everyone in the game did that the entirety of 40k would totally suck.

I think necron players just can't think out of the box, anymore. They have been touting this "spam Necron models" thing since the dawn of time, since 4th edition when I started for sure. The fear of necrons dying and the subsequent need to spam them always amuses me; I see many games lost by necron players because the phase out is at as many as 15 necrons remaining, often meaning roughly a squad and a half still alive. I also see a lot of big necron warrior squads, which always confuses me. 20 man squads getting swept because of one lucky roll on the power fist really hurts. If you want 60 necrons it should be in six squads of 10, and the last ones that count for phase out should be hiding. The arguments to my earlier hiding suggesting was that it wouldn't work because people can easily maneuver around monoliths, but you necron players need every benefit you can muster, and if the enemy wastes a turn maneuvering instead of blasting you to pieces, then the technique is a success in a way, even though no dice may be rolled and no models may be removed as casualties.

Incidentally...I have never once seen a necron player try to keep enough of his models out of the fight to avoid phase out. If you have a low number of models for your phase out, it should be relatively easy to hide a set of them off somewhere so that your primary fighting force doesn't contain enough necrons to phase you out. At that point, at least the enemy will have to go get the last few manually -- again, buying valuable game time.

mercer
10-15-2009, 05:30 AM
I saw this on your blog Chumby, and unfortunately its all true.

C'Tan maybe awesome in combat, but they're slow and can be avoided.

Pariahs are nasty in combat and against vehicles, but they need to footslog and can get gunned down.

Flayed Ones, nothing special really.

Warriors could be cheaper.

Monoliths are mixed up, but only transport method necrons have. I don't think they're that good and are over rated, I think its the huge model presence they have which makes people think they're awesome. Its like defilers, someone I played against targetted them straighted away because they looked big and mean.

drummerholt1234
10-15-2009, 06:43 AM
I still find it hard to believe that people feel you can simply ignore 75% of the enemy's most deadly forces on the table. Alone, yes, you could ignore any of the lamer pieces in the codex. But suppose an army (and bear with my hypothetical, here) took a C'tan, two Tomb Spyders, two Monoliths, and 10 Pariahs, along with a slew of Flayed Ones, flanked by destroyers and warriors. Could the enemy really ignore all that, especially once turn 3 passes and these things are in his lines?

Yes because they will be phased out or so close to phase out by the time the flayed ones get there they will be a liability. That set up also runs you 1240pts before any... yes any necron has been bought. Add in your two min warrior squads and now you are at 1600pts. That leaves you with 400pts to spend on 8 destroyers, just over 22 more warriors or some flayed ones and about 4 destroyers. This leaves the army with out mobility a lack of destroyers (even 8 isn't that great, 10+/3+ heavy destroyers is needed), no tarpit unit (scarabs), and no fast CC threat (necron destroyer lord as it is all the necrons have in that department). The max phase out of the army is 32/42 if you bought all warriors with those last 400 points and even less if you didn't.

Rex
10-15-2009, 07:02 AM
It's funny how the Necron players are agreeing with Chumby for the most part and the non-Necron players are knocking his content and suggesting unrealistic builds and uses for bad units.

Cryl
10-15-2009, 07:52 AM
I play necrons and have for a few years now and I'm not sure I entirely agree with either arguement! Some units aren't worth taking like Chumbys says... Pariahs go straight into this pot point for point they just aren't good enough to warrant taking up the space in an army. That said some other units like Flayed Ones really can be effective against certain armies, Tau or Guard will get hurt badly by them for example.

Monoliths fall into that category, I find them useful for their sheer flexibility, I can either drop a large template of death on a unit or land D6 shots on every enemy unit in range and still teleport teleport something (only if I don't use the template obviously), yes they're a big target, yes they're alot of points that don't help phase out but they are useful.

Heavy Destroyers aren't really good enough to warrant taking them, you'll get a single turn of shooting before they're targetted and wiped out and at 195 points for 2 lascannons they make dev squads look like a good deal! Ordinary Destroyers are one of the best units in the book though, up there with immortals.

Personally I find that mech isn't the biggest issue for a necron army, Monstrous Creatures are my bane... a carnifex with T7, 5 wounds and a 2+ save is a massive issue for an army that has little in the way of weapons above S6 or AP below 3, sure I can always wound it on a 6 but the combination of the armour save and the 5 wounds means I've got problems from the start. Go up against 3 of them with tyrant and guard and you've got problems. I use liths to be able to recycle models out of range / CC with them and keep the fire sustained until he failed enough saves... I'd be interested to know what other people would use to deal with it

mercer
10-15-2009, 09:13 AM
Heavy destroyers are 65 points each, so 195 for 3 lascannons ;) which can move like jetbikes are are t5 if I remember correctly ;)

Chumbalaya
10-15-2009, 09:59 AM
Let's go through all of this, yayz!

@ Lord Anubis: Actually no, the Ork thing sorts lost momentum since it ended up being the same arguments going back and forth. My well reasoned and intelligent commentary vs. "durpity durp durp you am rong" ;)

If you think that's what I'm talking about, I'd ask you to re-read the thread. Everything has a counter, what makes units useless is that their counters are available, easy, numerous and don't hurt the rest of the army. Also, if they don't adequately make up for their cost by being useful in some way. Orks boyz get knocked out by massed fire, good assault units, templates, and vehicles. Lucky us, all those are good. Ork Boyz aren't worth it because they don't hit hard enough or destroy vehicles, have Ld problems, and have difficult bringing an adequate number of models into assault.

What makes Pariahs bad is that they can't get back up, cost a ton of points, and their effects are mitigated by short ranges or their stats not helping them (assault in particular). And, Immortals are just better.

I'm not talking about tailored lists either, because that doesn't really hold up in a tourney environment. A good, balanced army is capable of handling all the one-dimensional armies like Nob Bikers, Ork Hordes, IG Air Cav, Warrior spam, and so on. It must also be able to handle other balanced armies. To do this, you need a good variety of units that can perform multiple roles, ideally for cheap so you can fit in more backups, and be used well to counter your opponent's army and tactics.

@crazyzombie: Why would you charge TH/SS Termies into Pariahs? It's much easier to down them with bolters or meltas, sending those beefcakes to nuke some Warriors. When you leave all the decisions up to your opponent, they won't play your game, you will have to react to them and they have the advantage. Waiting around for the assault that won't come is not a good idea.

@EmperorEternalXIX: Destroyers get WBB from meltas, not from powerfists. Destroyers can also turbo-boost, so no powerfist will be able to catch them. If Destroyers get in a fight with a PF, you did something wrong.

You can ignore 1 objective when there are 5 on the table. Just send something to contest last turn and make sure you hold 1 more.

You CAN ignore the Monolith because it doesn't completely block off the Warrior, it doesn't threaten my army in any appreciable way, it doesn't need to be destroyed conventionally. All the points you put into the Mono is less points in Necrons and brings you closer to magic Phase Out time. It does give you the chance to teleport, which means that uber S9 pie plate isn't firing and all the Warriors get nice and bunched up, yay assaults. You can hold Warriors in reserve, so when they do show up they get dead and Phase Out. And hey, if you're playing Tau or any army with long range S10 weapons, holding Warriors in reserve is a good way to lose them if you intend to pop out of the Mono, once it goes boom they don't come in.

Phase Out doesn't have to be a big number, but the units that count need to survive. Taking lots of Destroyers and Immortals gives you a lower number than spamming Warriors, but Immortals/Destroyers are harder to kill and get WBB from almost everything. Warriors require a Lord to babysit them and they don't dish out any real damage on their own. Immortals and Destroyers can move independently and dish out a whole lot more pain overall. Scarabs and Spyders are ok because they're cheap. When you take stuff like Monos, C'tan and Pariahs you have less points for Necrons, so it ends up a choice between numbers and effective units. The Noncrons cost so much that it's difficult to fit both in, so you sacrifice one or the other and your entire army suffers. 6 Destroyers >>>> Deceiver any day.

@MajorSoB: I was actually trying to make the point that a good player can bring a bad "on paper" list and still do well. I know Courtney is the bee knees, I was talking with him about it on Tuesday, not trying to diss on anything at all. A good player will bring what he knows he can work and will do with it. I'm aiming more at the newbies or people looking to improve. The best way to learn how to get better is figure out what makes particular units and lists good, play them, figure out why they're good then use that knowledge to blaze their own trail.

@EmperorEternalXIX again: C'tan, 2 Spyders, 2 Monos and 10 Pariahs is at the cheapest 1240 points. How big of a game are you playing? Throw in the minimum Warriors and it's 1600. You can't really fit any good number of much else. What do you do against mech? Nothing you have can stop a good number of vehicles. Nothing you have can stop AV14 reliably. If your local players are having difficulty with it, you are Patton reborn or you need to stop gaming at the day care center.

Without a way to handle mech (glancing hits and charging with 6" per turn MCs is NOT the answer) the army folds. You've got flanking Flayed Ones too? More assaulting infantry models who aren't even good in assault. Anything in a transport ignores them, real assault units stomp them, and shooting units blow apart the Warriors as they come in.

Assault Termies can get tie down, but you have to get them out of their transports first. Good luck cracking AV14 with that army.

5th focuses on close range fights, melta, and mech, but that doesn't mean people are going to run into the arms of your slow MCs. A balanced army will have ranged weapons to pick them off from afar and the mobility to zoom around your big wall of fail and get to the good parts.

@Cryl: Load them up with shots to force saves (Immortals and Destroyers) or use Heavy Ds to bypass the armor. If it's assaulty, you can ignore it for now (send your Lord and Spyders after it, or just tie it down with Scarabs :P), if it's shooty, then spread out to avoid the blasts and blow them apart one by one.

I kinda want to dust off my Necrons. I think I have about 1000 points worth lying around, I just need like 10 more Destroyers ;)

EmperorEternalXIX
10-15-2009, 02:01 PM
I find your logic flawed in some of these cases. You know a lot about list building but your tactical acumen differs from my own. We're going to have to just agree to disagree on this one.

I am not a necron player; however, for the entire first year and a half I played this game, I played against a necron player only, week in and week out. He did exactly what you suggest; destroyer spam, no monoliths, lots of necrons to keep the count high...I beat him almost every time we've ever fought. He refused to try anything else pretty much ever, and understandably so -- that was 4th edition.

Now in 5th edition things have changed. The ubiquitous cover save makes things like pie plates not so scary, and the monstrous creatures do not have so little worth now that they can run. It is all about how you use them: each of these things can reach stuff to assault within 12" of it. That means that as far as the radius of influence goes, these things have a bubble of roughly 24" that they can effect (12" out from where they stand). If you position your army correctly, ANY advancing troops will have to pass through this area sooner or later. And per your comments about the Land Raider...since when have players who use a LR NOT barrelled it forwards at the enemy as fast as possible when there's no melta around?

The argument that my suggestions give you too few necrons is kind of irrelevant, since it was my goal to suggest that a list with less necrons can do well. Where I play, the boards have plenty of terrain and plenty of ways to stay out of sight or get cover saves.

I agree with most of your points regarding the other units, but there are ways to use them tactically that aren't at all being considered. For instance throughout all of this I haven't seen you mention at all that the monolith's template can snipe with AP1 under the template's hole -- a great technique for vehicle hunting. In an Apocalypse game, I once saw a player beat an IG army with 12 Leman Russ tanks and 3 Baneblades by using 4 monoliths and the C'tan plus a lot of disruption fields (the IG player rolled incredibly badly, but still...it happened).

Your opinions on destroyers being able to escape are really flawed. They are the best unit in the codex for sure and I would always say maxing them out is a must. But to be honest, the idea that they can't be reached by things that can kill them is absurd. Even if they manage to turbo boost away, I am still doing myself a huge service by silencing their fire for a turn. Do you play any Guard players? Those guys come under Leman Russ fire so fast and from so far away, and like I said before they're never in cover because people don't want to risk them on a DT test. There are countless other things; bikers, LS Storm Scouts, Assault Marines, Drop Podding troops, hell I even nailed a few of them with a Str10 AP1 template from the Master of the Forge once.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but you say something like "Oh the ork argument made no sense because I was being all reasonable and everyone else was just being stupid" and then come in here and completely disavow the fact that I'm telling you it is NOT that hard to catch the Destroyers with a power fist and that I personally do so almost every time I fight the necrons in a variety of ways. Again, no disrespect meant, but to me that sounds an awful lot like "durpity durp durp you am rong" to me (at least with regards to the destroyers' survivability...the rest of your points are perfectly valid).

While your points about the unit combinations you have listed are perfectly valid, that assumes a lot. I would never take 10 Pariahs, the cost is just too retardedly high. But I could see some utility for them if someone else was willing to try it.The Pariah thing, like everything I've said, is a strategy based around the current meta game, and tabletop psychology. Generally you are correct about most of the units, they are crap...but when life gives you crap, you make ... crap-aid, I guess. If you get lucky with certain things and be extremely cautious, it can prove effective to some degree. You're not going to be winning tournaments, of course. But again, my overall idea was to make use of things purely because they are unexpected, and use that fact to one's advantage.

I know the lists I suggest probably won't win, but they'd sure be a hell of a lot more entertaining to use then warrior spam, heh.

Chumbalaya
10-15-2009, 03:14 PM
I think you missed my sarcasm in that first comment, I'll have to use more hyperbole next time ;)

In 4th, Gaussspam was actually a good idea since glances could harm vehicles. 5th is more about high RoF weaponry and since Gauss only glances, you need the high S shots to hurt vehicles. And since assault generally lasts 1 round, you feed units in, watch them drop, watch your units hop back up and blast them as they sit in the open dubmfounded.

It's never about absolutes. If I bring a LR and you have a C'tan sitting pretty, I'd be silly to just run right into it, I can use the LR's speed and durability to get around it and get something tastier or use its firepower to whittle down the numbers.

Monolith has AP1, but it scatters and in doing so you can't teleport.

I'd rather the Destroyers not die than not shoot 1 turn. They won't get in combat anyway, so it isn't an issue. Barring some ridiculously good luck with fleet or something similar, the Destroyers can maneuver around to avoid getting charged. Generally if they do get charged, I've done something wrong and get punished accordingly. Drop Pod units can't charge after coming down, Assault Marines expose themselves from turn 1 and can be whittle down, LS Storm is made of tissue paper and 5 Scouts never bothered anybody. If these types of units give you trouble, you can always stick the Destroyers behind a screen of Scarabs, have them absorb the charge and move on. Battle Cannons don't negate WBB for T5 models, and with large bases they can spread out and minimize return fire. If S10 shows up, the Lord has to be kept handy until it can be taken out. Weight of fire will bring anything down, but with T5 Destroyers and Immortals can get back up from nearly anything, giving them a lot more freedom than T4 'crons.

I understand the point you're trying to get across. You want to use oddball or suboptimal units to throw your opponent off and maybe learn something new. A good player will not be thrown off by 2 Monoliths and a load of Pariahs, there's a reason they aren't fielded often. You may be able to catch somebody with their pants down once or twice, but these units are suboptimal not because it's a conspiracy to hate on them or because nobody wants to be creative and experiment, believe me they have. You can try to make crap-aid, but it's still crap. They would be interesting and great for friendlies or Apocalypse. That's not really my target audience. People don't need help playing friendlies. I'm using this as a baseline for new and old Necron players alike looking for a way to get some extra mileage out of their army competitively.

And come on, did you read anything? Warrior spam sucks worse than anything else :P

mercer
10-16-2009, 05:11 AM
I do find it funny that someone who doesn't play necrons is debating about tactics and units uses....

Chumbalaya
10-16-2009, 12:05 PM
Hell, I haven't played Necrons consistently in years and I think I'm doing all right :P

Rex
10-16-2009, 12:39 PM
Considering it's almost identical to the advice from ****, I'd say so...

Chumbalaya
10-16-2009, 01:51 PM
Which is why I already acknowledged in the OP...

mercer
10-19-2009, 06:40 AM
Hell, I haven't played Necrons consistently in years and I think I'm doing all right :P

I meant emperoreternal, dude :p